Speaker and hon members, before I answer Question 7, may I take this opportunity to congratulate our Springboks, the mighty Springboks ... [Applause.] ... on winning against quite a formidable side and on winning with a professional margin. [Laughter.]
Hon member, government is guided by the Constitution of the Republic, which makes provision for the promotion and protection of the rights of persons with disabilities. To expedite the implementation of the transformative policies adopted after 1994, South Africa signed both the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and its Optional Protocol in 2007 and ratified the convention in 2008.
The convention covers a number of key areas, such as accessibility, rehabilitation, participation in political life, equality and nondiscrimination. In order to ensure the proper implementation of the covenant, the government is developing a national disability policy and its implementation guidelines. Work is also under way to develop a Disability Act which will deal with the enforcement, noncompliance with and implementation of the convention, as well as all disability-related policies of the land. We will also continue to promote the inclusion of persons with disabilities in the mainstream economy through instruments such as the Employment Equity Act and the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act, amongst other things. The recent Employment Equity Commission report indicated dismal figures with regard to the representation of persons with disabilities at top and senior management levels in the workplace. This was put at 0,8%, together with that of African women. Solutions to this challenge that we are looking at include proposed amendments to the Employment Equity Act to incorporate proposals such as increasing the fines imposed on employers to deter them from not complying with the Act. The amendment also seeks to amend the definition of designated groups, to limit the meaning of black people, women and persons with disabilities to South African citizens and to those who have become citizens through naturalisation.
This will mean that the employment of persons who are foreign nationals or became citizens after April 1994 will not assist employers to meet their affirmative action targets. Other special initiatives with regard to job opportunities include the Department of Labour's initiative of funding and managing Sheltered Employment Factories for persons with disabilities. There are 12 such factories currently, and discussions are at an advanced stage for them to be increased and transformed.
At a practical level, among great strides that have been made to deliver services to persons with disabilities is access to social assistance. To date, a total of 983 331 persons with disabilities receive the disability grant from government, while a total of 122 153 children with disabilities receive the care dependency grant to assist their caregivers to look after them. In addition, 248 589 persons with temporary disabilities receive the temporary disability grant. These grants contribute immensely to the alleviation of poverty.
We welcome the participation of civil society, in particular organisations representing the interests of people with disabilities, in monitoring the measures that government has taken and is working on to expedite implementation of post-1994 policies. I thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]
Thank you, Your Excellency, for a very informative reply. I am sure you will agree with me that at the heart of the challenges that face disabled people in South Africa is the negative social attitudes that exist in society, where many people do not have the confidence that disabled people can make a meaningful contribution like all other members of society. Would the President use his enormous influence in society to help change these attitudes? Thank you.
Speaker, we will certainly do so. I think the measures that I have just given are part of what we are trying to do to ensure that people with disabilities are indeed treated as the Constitution requires. So, we will certainly use whatever influence we have to ensure that that is done and that the Constitution is implemented. I thank you.
Will the hon Ross move to the microphone, please? The microphone seems to be malfunctioning.
It's not Ross; it's Marais.
Mr Marais, yes. Please go ahead.
Mr Speaker and Mr President, you will excuse me if I say that, for all the years that I have been in Parliament, your answers to the questions have sounded so familiar, and I can assure you that from the fraternity that I represent, the disability fraternity, very little has been done and has been seen and experienced on the ground.
With regard to the mentioned UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, very few, sir, of your government departments and their staff know about this convention. Fewer understand the content and the intention of this convention, and even fewer implement the relevant conditions and the requirements, Mr President. This is whilst your government finalises and implements regulations on a daily basis that impact and, more often than not, infringe on the rights of this most vulnerable group of citizens, which the convention aims to protect and support. We have numerous examples of persons with disabilities who are further marginalised on a daily basis. We have seen this with Sars. There are one or two printers of Braille books for blind schoolchildren in this country and, until today, no order has been placed for books for next year, and payments are in arrears for months and months. Those blind children are marginalised as we speak, sir.
Hon member, your time has expired.
How will you ensure compliance by your government departments and implement what remedies are available? Thank you very much.
Speaker, yes, we cannot say that enough has been done in this regard, but I think a number of things have been done, as I have indicated here. Certainly, where there are people not doing what they are supposed to do, we certainly will continue to ensure that we impress upon them that they must implement the law and that they must do what is right to ensure that we do not marginalise people with disabilities. We will continue to do so, and I am sure that all of us need more education.
You will appreciate that the question of working for, implementing, and coming up with the rights of people with disabilities is not something that has been there for decades. I think this has only been the case with the democratic government that this issue has been addressed, and I can imagine that we will have to educate people as much as possible to understand that things have changed. This government has changed things, and we must act according to what the Constitution says.
I think it is the duty of all of us, particularly Members of Parliament, to help educate society. It is our joint task to do so, because the regulations, rules, legislation, and Constitution are there. This is a question of how to make everybody appreciate them and therefore act on this issue. So, we will continue to educate people. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr Speaker and hon President, given that South Africa is a signatory to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, for which an initial country report has yet to be delivered, what measures are to be proposed to ensure that both government and the private sector adhere to the convention? Thank you, sir.
Speaker, I think the answers that I have given today indicate which measures we are trying to implement as government, to ensure that everybody participates in ensuring that we do not marginalise people with disabilities. That is what we will do. That is why I am talking about the convention so much, to ensure that all of us appreciate it, and therefore the next step is to implement it. We will continue to do so, as I have said. We will continue to preach to those who take time to hear and to reach those, as far as possible, who might miss the opportunity to hear when we say this. We will certainly do that. Thank you. [Applause.]
Reaction to threats and allegations made in relation to Botswana and its head of state
8. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the President of the Republic:
(1) Whether the government of Botswana has communicated its objections to the threats made by a certain organisation (name furnished) to send a team to Botswana to consolidate local opposition parties (details furnished); if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) whether the government has apologised to the Botswana head of state who was referred to by the said organisation as a United States puppet; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2511E
Hon Speaker, the government of Botswana has not communicated with the South African government about the statements attributed to the said organisation. Botswana is a democratic country. It holds democratic elections. Whatever the government in that country does is in line with the will of the Botswana people.
Political relations between South Africa and Botswana remain strong, cordial and mutually beneficial, and with good reason. History has bound the two countries and peoples in a friendship and kinship that goes beyond normal diplomatic relations. Our relations were cemented during the days of our struggle for liberation from colonial oppression and apartheid.
Driven by the desire to see their South African brothers and sisters liberated, the successive governments and people of Botswana hosted our freedom fighters under very difficult conditions. Botswana was the only border and only route for our freedom fighters for a long time when other routes, such as to Mozambique, Zimbabwe and Swaziland, were not yet open for freedom fighters to use.
This solidarity was accorded to our people at great cost to Botswana and her people as the apartheid regime retaliated with bombings and attacks on the citizens of Botswana. Botswana and South Africa are also bound together by cultural, linguistic and family ties between the two nations owing to our geographic proximity.
The president of the Republic of Botswana, Lt Gen Seretse Khama Ian Khama, paid a state visit to South Africa from 5 to 6 October last year. During that visit, we elevated our bilateral relations to the level of a binational commission, chaired by the two heads of state. The commission will meet annually, alternating between Tshwane and Gaborone.
Our co-operation is currently very strong in the areas of agriculture, water, transport, environmental affairs, tourism, trade, aviation, search and rescue, science and technology, health, justice, sport, and arts and culture.
I have been invited to undertake a state visit to Botswana and I have indicated to President Khama that I will do so early next year. Let me reiterate that our relations with Botswana can only grow from strength to strength. I thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, Mr President, for that reply. The threats by the ANC Youth League to establish a Botswana command team that will work towards uniting all opposition forces in Botswana to oppose what they called a puppet regime by the Botswana Democratic Party must be condemned by all political parties in this House.
We have already seen two coups d'tat on the continent this year: the first by the French special forces with United Nations forces in the Ivory Coast, helping Alassane Ouattara rebels, and the second by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, Nato, by helping Libyan forces, or rebels, rather, to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi from power. So we don't need a third coup d'tat in Botswana by the youth league.
How will the hon President ensure that such statements are not repeated and that all other formations in our country come to the understanding that the destabilisation of any sovereign country and the toppling of another government by outside forces are wicked and must be condemned in the strongest possible terms?
Hon Speaker, I am sure that the hon member is aware of what the ruling party has said on this matter, and that he is also equally aware of the policies and decisions of the African Union that guide AU members. We have definitely acted in that direction. Thank you, Mr Speaker. [Applause.]
Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Mr President, in view of the fact that Botswana is the only SADC country that took a stand against the repressive regime of Zimbabwe and also supports and recognises the National Transitional Council, NTC, of Libya, it is ironic that the ANC Youth League has called for regime change in Botswana, embarrassing South Africa in the eyes of Africa and the international community in the process. Mr President, the question, therefore, is: What is your position with regard to the National Transitional Council of Libya? I thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Hon members, allow the President to be heard! We are here to listen to him. [Laughter.]
Hon Speaker, well, I think the position of the President of South Africa and South Africa has been articulated on a number of occasions with regard to the NTC in Libya. Secondly, the AU has taken a very clear position, and we are part of the AU. We could not do anything different.
The AU, as an organisation, has not recognised the NTC. There are individual countries that have taken individual decisions on the basis of their right in terms of their national policies. But there is an AU position that South Africa is part of. As South Africa, we have not recognised the NTC. Together with the AU, we have set very specific conditions and, therefore, that is our position, which we have articulated. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Thank you, Speaker. Mr President, more than 56 years ago the ANC and the congress alliance adopted the Freedom Charter as a statement of core principles. The Freedom Charter, amongst other things, states that "South Africa shall be a fully independent state which respects the rights and sovereignty of all nations"; and that "The people of the protectorates Basutoland, Bechuanaland and Swaziland shall be free to decide for themselves their own future".
Now, Mr President, can you confirm that, indeed, South Africa does engage its neighbours on the basis of these core principles? Thank you.
Hon Speaker, certainly, that's what South Africa does. We engage with our neighbours as independent countries and we do not decide for them. They decide for themselves what kind of direction they want to take. What we have done is to enhance relations between ourselves and these countries, and that is what we continue to do.
As I elaborated on my answer here with regard to Botswana, we are, in fact, deepening our relations from that point of view. That has remained our guiding policy from the Freedom Charter, that we shall respect the sovereignty of other countries and contribute towards working to promote peace and good neighbourliness. That's what guides us. I totally agree with what you have said. That's our position. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, Speaker. Hon President, perhaps unintentionally, the perception has now been created amongst both African and other nations around the world that we are not as committed to the democratic values and the deepening of democracy in international affairs as we may have professed.
First of all, there are the pronouncements by the youth of the ruling party with regard to Botswana. [Interjections.] I would appeal, Speaker, that the President gets a chance to hear what I have to ask because we want him to answer the question ... [Interjections.] By those pronouncements and, even more seriously, by voting for Resolution 1973, endorsing violent or military intervention in the affairs of Libya, we veered away from our commitment to the resolution of international problems by peaceful means. How does your government at the present time intend to work to change that perception of our country? [Interjections.]
Hon Speaker, well, I think I have already answered the first part of the question. With regard to the second part that relates to the resolution of the United Nations Security Council, Resolution 1973, all countries who are members of the United Nations Security Council - three of them from the continent of Africa - voted together. That resolution was co-sponsored by the Arab League, to which Libya belonged as well.
The resolution was very clear. The resolution did not say that Nato must bomb Libya. That is not the resolution. If the hon member has not seen the resolution itself, he must help himself by reading it. [Applause.]
After Goddafi'air force had attacked innocent protesters, the UN Security Council met and took a resolution to protect the airspace. That is what the resolution says. What has happened is that some countries have abused that resolution - and we have said this on countless occasions - including the Arab League which has disassociated itself from those actions, much as they co-sponsored that resolution, because the resolution has been abused. That's the reality.
Therefore, for South Africa, there is nothing to explain to anyone. Our position is very clear and we have articulated it. We have criticised the Nato forces - and those who have abused the resolution - in public. For the hon member to be able to ask the question properly, he must listen to all sides. He must not listen to one side. He heard us taking a resolution, but he has not heard us criticising it. That's quite strange because we have been saying it quite openly. So our position is clear; it does not need to be clarified to anyone. Everybody in the world is clear on where South Africa stands. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Amendment of scope of Executive Members' Ethics Act
9. The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the President of the Republic:
Whether, with reference to the Presidency welcoming a debate on the current legislative mechanisms for oversight over the executive, this will include amendments to the Executive Members' Ethics Act, Act 82 of 1998, to include disclosure of government deals involving all family members of the executive; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2969E
Hon Speaker, as hon members should be aware, the Executive Ethics Code provides for the disclosure of financial interests and gifts of members of the executive and their spouses, permanent companions, parents and dependant children. Currently, there are no plans to extend this to all family members.
Apart from the obvious question as to who exactly would qualify as family members, it is arguable whether a member of the executive could reasonably be expected to be adequately informed about the financial affairs of all such family members, and whether such family members could in turn be placed under a legal obligation to disclose their financial affairs to the executive. In their wisdom, those who drafted the regulations governing public office bearers realised that we could not subject extended or other family members to rules that apply to their relatives who have chosen to become public office bearers. Like all citizens, those related to public office bearers are entitled to their right to privacy, to work or create work and all other constitutional rights of South Africans. I thank you.
Hon President, you and your executive have a chequered record of tardy disclosure with regard to the Executive Members' Ethics Act. It has become commonplace to hear of people who are related or closely linked to members of the executive and, indeed, yourself, securing lucrative state tenders.
The DA recognises the constitutional rights of all citizens in South Africa, whether related to you or any member of your executive or not. Far be it from us to wish to prejudice those who are related or linked to you and your executive from conducting legitimate business endeavours with any arm of government. What we seek to do, should they secure such state contracts, is to ensure that their achievements are not considered with scepticism and suspicion by the public, because this scepticism is inevitably aimed at you and those who are in positions of executive office.
Mr President, would you support our appeal that any state contracts awarded to family members of the executive and yourself be subjected to specific scrutiny by the Auditor-General to ensure that such contracts meet every prescript of the supply-chain management procurement process in order to guarantee that no contesting tenderer is given the inside track by virtue of their familial or narrow acquaintance relationship with you or any member of your executive? I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, I'm sure that the hon member wants us to chase shadows in trying to create impressions and making them facts. We need to have facts and say, here is a thing that has been done wrongly and must be investigated. I don't think we can wake up on any day or any morning and hear people speculating, and then say we must change the rules. These members, as I have said, have rights which are equal to those of other citizens. Why should they be subjected to such kind of treatment?
Because it is clear who these people are - those who have been categorised in terms of the law. Why do you pull other people into something who have nothing to do with anything? Why should their rights be infringed upon simply because they are either relatives or whatever? I think that is wrong. You are making us chase shadows. I don't think that is welcomed. There is no democracy that judges people differently because they are related to certain people. I don't think so. Thank you. [Applause.]
On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I was supposed to take a follow-up question on behalf of the ANC. Has there been a mistake in your records?
Mr Speaker ...
Hon member, you are out of order. [Laughter.] Please take your seat!
Thank you, hon Speaker. Mr President, Minister Richard Baloyi's promise on various occasions that the amendments to the ministerial handbook would be "made public, certainly before the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup" was a sound and noble promise, yet government is stalling in releasing these changes.
I think that you would agree with me, Mr President, that the public perception out there is that certain members of the executive are misusing and abusing public funds. Certainly, we believe that you can play a vital role in the immediate release of these amendments. My question is: Will the President use his enormous influence to make Minister Baloyi's promise a reality? I thank you.
Hon Speaker, I will follow up on that question; urgently. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ngiyabonga, Somlomo. Mhlonishwa Mongameli, ngiyakuzwa ukuthi akufunakali sidonse abaseceleni kanye nabangapha. Uma laba abangaphakathi betholakala benecala - baboshwa nini, Mhlonishwa Mongameli? Ngaso sonke isikhathi kuba khona abantu abangayigcini kwalemithetho ekhona. Baboshwa nini labo bantu? Abanye babo yilabo obaqokele ezihlalweni, baboshwa nini uma kufanele ukuba baboshwe? [Uhleko.]
UMONGAMELI WEZWE LASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Lungu leSishayamthetho elihloniphekile, wazi kahle ukuthi umuntu oboshwayo ngumuntu otholakala enecala. Mhlawumbe ukuba uthe kimina: 'Nangu usibanibani unecala, watholakala impela ukuthi wonile'. Akaboshwa ngani? Njengoba ukhuluma uyafunisela, udukuza nje ebumnyameni. [Uhleko.] Ukudukuza ebumnyameni akubuyiseli kakhulu ngoba ungalokhu udukuzile nje ungafiki lapho uyakhona, ungaze uthinte isilwane uthi uthinta umuntu kanti yisilwane. [Uhleko.] Asingadukuzi ebumnyameni, siqondane ngqo nalabo abonileyo - ongonile. Uma nje ubungitshela ukuthi naba, ababoshiwe ngabe ngizwa kahle. Manje uma uthi: "Laba nje okuthi banje, ababoshwa ngani?". Angibazi ukuthi ngobani, lungu elihloniphekile. Somlomo ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Speaker. Hon President, I understand that you say that we need not drag along those people who are on the sides and those people who are inside here. If those who are inside are found guilty, when are they going to be arrested, hon President? There are people who never abide by the current laws. When are these people going to be arrested? Some of them are the people you have given high positions, but will they be arrested if a need for them to be arrested arises? [Laughter.]
Hon Member of Parliament, you know very well that a person who is arrested is someone who is found guilty. If you were to come to me and say, "there is so-and-so who is guilty", and then he or she really is found guilty, one could ask, "Why is he or she not arrested?" But as you are speaking now, you are just wandering in the dark. [Laughter.] Wandering in the dark is not beneficial, because you will keep on wandering without reaching your destination, and you will end up touching an animal whilst thinking that you are touching a person. [Laughter.] Let us not wander in darkness, but come face to face with those who are guilty - the guilty ones. If you were telling me that here are the guilty ones who are not arrested, I would understand. But if you say: "Those who are like this, why are they not arrested?", I do not know who they are, hon member. Mr Speaker, thank you. [Applause.]]
Through you, Speaker, hon President, the Executive Members' Ethics Act is one of the measures that government has instituted to ensure that we actually comply with the Constitution and the provisions of accountability. It is aimed at ensuring that public office is not abused and that knowledge of government business is not determined on the basis of people in high office knowing the inside trading, etc that they could advance for their own benefit.
Hon President, since you became the head of state, several instances of self-enrichment and abuse of the privileges of office by members of your Cabinet, as well as provincial premiers and their executives, have occurred. The question is: Do you agree that against the background of popular uprising against corrupt regimes on our continent, specifically Libya, Syria and elsewhere, it would set a dangerous precedent for our country, especially for poor and destitute communities, if politicians in high office appear to be immune from sanction by your government and by you as head of state? Thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, firstly, I think you cannot compare the South African government to the governments you mentioned - Libya or Syria. They have totally different systems. It is absolutely incorrect to make that comparison in trying to judge us.
Secondly, these generalities do not help. You are telling me that members in government and high office have been found ... Who are they? If you tell me who these people who have been judged or against whom allegations have been made and no action taken, I would understand. You want me to answer a question that is just floating in the air and give a floating answer, because you are not indicating specific people, the findings against them or any evidence of actions that I have not acted against.
Speaker, would you allow me to elaborate on the matter?
No, I will not. Take your seat, hon member! [Interjections.]
The Public Protector's report ... [Interjections.]
Hon member, please take your seat!
Hon President, I'm sure you're done answering that question. We now move on to Question 10, asked by the hon L B G Ndabandaba.
Proposed policy interventions to ensure accountability of newly elected local government leadership to communities
10. Prof L B G Ndabandaba (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
With reference to the Auditor-General identifying leadership at the core of good governance and accountability at all levels of government, what new policy interventions does he intend to implement to ensure that the newly elected leadership at local government level is accountable to the communities that elected them through the appropriate utilisation of public resources and effective service delivery? NO1537E
Speaker and hon members, to ensure good governance and accountability by the newly elected leadership at local government level, a councillor induction programme was conducted during the month of July 2011. It was well attended and went very well.
The programme focused on, among other things, the following areas: the structures and systems of local government; roles and responsibilities of municipal councils; personal and leadership skills; co-operative governance; municipal budgeting and financial management; and public participation. The induction programme is part of a major, intensive and ongoing training programme.
The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs has also, in conjunction with the National Treasury, developed guidelines for the establishment of Municipal Public Accounts Committees in order to strengthen the oversight measures in municipalities.
The committees, which are chaired by a councillor, will assist the council to hold the executive and municipal entities to account, and to ensure the efficient and effective use of municipal resources.
It is hoped that the committees will help to increase council and public awareness regarding the financial and general performance of municipalities. These are just some of government's concerted efforts to improve accountability and service delivery at a local government level, informed by the recommendations of the Auditor-General. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, I thank the hon President for his exhaustive and, indeed, enlightening answer. I can only say that, as a member of the Standing Committee on the Auditor-General, SCAUG, we are going to implement all those suggestions given to us and we shall keep the President informed. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you very much for that warm reception of suggestions. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President, this question revolves around the word "skills", the problem being that people are appointed to senior positions without the necessary skills to do the work. The same applies with regard to political parties: fielding candidates who do not have the skills to be effective councillors. Now, if you had time to watch TV last night, it was said that R1,4 billion was wasted by the municipalities in the Free State because of this problem, and the ANC Whip in the National Council of Provinces has as much as admitted that there are no proper skills.
So, Mr President, what should be done is that we should not appoint people who do not have the necessary skills to do the job that you appoint them for. We should not field such candidates - all parties - to become councillors and Members of Parliament, present company excluded. [Laughter.]
Hon Speaker, the general suggestion being made by the hon member to all parties is that members of parties who may be elected to positions of councillors should first be tested - I don't know how easy that is - to see if they have the skills or not. I think that is quite a tall order with regard to the councillors, because elections are run by parties and parties are supported by and field their members to become councillors. If we are talking about people who get employed, who apply for jobs, that's a different matter.
So, if this is a matter that you want to discuss, you could really open up that discussion in Parliament here for the parties to determine what type of councillors should be fielded. I think that is not an easy matter. It is very easy if you have a job and somebody applies, he or she is interviewed, and you then go through all the questions of whether the person has the skills, etc and you are able to disqualify that person and find the right candidate.
But in so far as the question relates to the elections, where parties have their own members who then become appointed as councillors, that advice should be given to all parties and it would be better if you did that. I am saying that it is not an easy matter, knowing politicians as I do. I'm sure in your own party you know how difficult this is. But I think this is quite a point that you are making. As you said, you are advising all parties. Fine. Advise the parties; they are all here. [Laughter.]
Speaker, thank you to Mr Van der Merwe for the advice, which we will also take. Focusing on the issue of those that are employed, one of the main reasons for dysfunctionality, as we know, in municipalities is nepotism, cronyism and, of course, cadre deployment, as we focus on the aspects of those that are employed.
Hon President, would you ensure that the ground-breaking provisions of the recently enacted Local Government: Municipal Systems Amendment Act will be strictly enforced? As you are aware, any municipal manager appointment will be null and void if the person appointed to such position does not have the required skills, expertise, competencies or qualifications. Performance agreements will also be required, and managers dismissed for fraud and corruption will not be able to be re-employed.
Hon President, will the rule also be enforced that municipal managers and other managers are prohibited from holding political office in any political party? These aspects are part of that legislation, and strict implementation of these provisions will go a long way to professionalise local government and improve service delivery. Thank you.
Hon Speaker, well, I am not sure whether I can determine for other parties who they put forward. I don't want to give myself an extra job to check each and every councillor and every party as to whether it has gone through that process. I think the only thing that we can do is to have the provisions.
The speaker started by saying that in order to get rid of nepotism and cronyism ... These generalities do not help. I have heard people say all of this. Nobody has said, "Here is so-and-so who is in a job because he is a friend of this person." These generalities create an impression that there is a lot of nepotism and cronyism, but you can't see it, and there is a lot of talk about it. I think we should disabuse ourselves, really, of just sticking to propaganda that we cannot prove. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr President, the initiatives that you have mentioned sound good, but I would like to remind this House that the Minister of Public Works, Mrs Gwen Mahlangu-Nkabinde, has yet to account to the Cabinet, to this House and to the South African people for her illegal actions in respect of the SA Police leasing deal, and she has been backed by Cabinet in her refusal to provide an explanation. Mr President, if that is the attitude of your government ...
On a point of order ...
Sorry, hold on. There is a point of order.
An assertion that the Minister has committed illegal actions which has not been substantiated by any finding of anybody is out of order, Speaker. I ask that you rule it as out of order. [Interjections.]
Yes, that is the case. That really is out of order. [Interjections.] Hon President, we move on.
Mr Speaker, are you ruling that out of order, sir?
Why?
Because, quite frankly, the Public Protector has ruled on that particular point. And I'm not quite sure ...
The matter is before the parliamentary committees and those committees have not yet reported back to the House. There are two committees that the matter has been referred to. [Interjections.]
Mr Speaker, they haven't had a chance to report back to the House. I have to say, sir, that I disagree with your ruling. [Interjections.]
The matter is before the committees.
Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order. With respect, they don't have to report back to the House. That is a jurisdiction entirely within the precincts of the Presidency. The President has to act on that matter, as prescribed in the Constitution and the law. [Interjections.] What are the remedial respects in that regard?
But then, hon Speaker, if the matter has not yet rested, shouldn't it be allowed to rest first before members can arrive at those conclusions? [Interjections.]
On a point of order, Speaker: In terms of the Constitution, we have Chapter 9 institutions. All of us refer issues to them. They investigate them. They then return decisions or whatever else out of those. The Public Protector has investigated this matter and returned certain conclusions. If we cannot rely on those conclusions, what is their purpose? [Applause.]
Order! These are still allegations by the Public Protector. [Interjections.] The Minister has not been found guilty by any court of law. [Interjections.]
Sorry, Mr Speaker, but I have to say, with great respect, sir, I think you are being too protective of the President. The Public Protector requested that remedial steps be taken by the President in respect of that report. The hon member is quite right - it is a Chapter 9 institution, enshrined in the Constitution, and the President accepts responsibility, quite rightly, for the results of any investigation and findings thereof. All that we are asking and demanding at this point in time, in terms of the Parliament of this country, is what the steps are that the President is going to take. [Interjections.]
Order! Order! Order! Please don't shout into the microphone. I will recognise you. [Laughter.] Hon Chief Whip?
Speaker ...
Hon member, I have recognised the Chief Whip here. Hon Chief Whip, you may proceed.
Hon Speaker, with due respect to the Whips of the DA, the report has been referred to Parliament and, as you correctly said, the committees of Parliament are looking at that report, and ... [Interjections.]
Order! Order!
... at the appropriate time, when the committees are ready, the report will come to this House. This has nothing to do with the President; it has to do with us. [Interjections.]
It does. [Interjections.]
With the greatest respect ...
Agb Speaker ... [Hon Speaker ...]
Order! Order! Please take your seat, hon member, until I recognise you.
On a point of order ...
Hon member, you can't have a point of order when I've not recognised you. Sit down until I recognise you.
Speaker, on a point of order: It is important to note that this House must accept its responsibility in terms of the Constitution. The Chapter 9 institutions account to this House, to Parliament, and Parliament is absolutely due to report on the matter before the House at present. The hon President had a deadline which expired last night at 12 pm and, apparently, from his office the country was informed that he would not be under any pressure to do so. Now that, hon Speaker, is certainly a constitutional contravention. We expect the President of the country to account to this House today and no later. Thank you. [Applause.]
Order, hon members! Order!
Hon Speaker, may I address you on this same point of order that is being discussed by the House? I would submit that the Chief Whip of the ruling party is absolutely correct when he says that Parliament cannot express itself at the moment - we are waiting for the reports of the relevant committees. However, that is not what the point is at the moment. It is not Parliament that wants to take a decision now on reports. It is the hon President, who represents the executive, who is accountable to the legislature with regard to executive actions. In this regard, the hon Minister represents the executive. And, I think, it is within the rights of members of the legislature to ask the hon President about acts alleged against some of the members of the executive. Thank you. [Applause.]
On a point of order ...
Hon member, please take your seat. I haven't recognised you. Take your seat, hon member. Hon members, I am not going to take any more hands. You can raise five hands at a time; I am still not going to take any of them. I wish to state, hon members, that this, of course, does not even relate to the question, Question 10. It has nothing to do with Question 10. We are still dealing with Question 10. The questions did not refer to Question 10, and these are questions that we all have in front of us. I am therefore going to move on. This is also because, if allegations are made by MPs, they must be made in the form of substantive motions. Those are the rules.
Agb Speaker ... [Hon Speaker ...]
Hon member, please take your seat.
It is a completely new one.
Please take your seat. [Interjections.] Order! Order!
It is a completely new point of order. [Interjections.]
Order! Order! Order!
Speaker, on a point of order: The hon member hasn't finished asking her question yet ...
Order! Order! Order, hon member! Order!
Hon Speaker, the hon member hasn't finished asking her question yet. If you gave her time to complete it, it might clarify the matter. [Interjections.]
Order, hon member! Hon member, you can finish your question, but without reference to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President ...
Order! Order ...
Hon member, you are out of order. I have not given you the floor. The person is still speaking. Please take your seat. Hon member, please take your seat. [Interjections.]
With respect, Speaker ... [Interjections.]
Hon member, please take your seat. [Interjections.]
No, I am rising ...
Hon member, please take your seat. [Interjections.]
I am rising on a point of order. [Interjections.]
Don't rise; sit down. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
I am asking for a point ...
Sit down. Hon member, I have given the hon member an opportunity to finish. She is on the floor, hon member.
This is a point of order. I am asking a point of order. [Interjections.] It is a point of order, sir.
No, hon member. I have asked the member to continue to make her point, without ... [Inaudible.]
What is your point of order, hon member?
With respect, Speaker, the Office of the Public Protector ... [Interjections.] ... investigates ...
Hon member, that is not a point of order. It is a statement you are making.
No, but you may not characterise the report and the findings of the Public Protector. ... [Interjections.] You may not classify them as allegations. They are findings, sir. They are findings. [Applause.] It means allegations have been investigated and findings have been made. [Applause.] Please correct yourself, sir. [Applause.]
Thank you. Take your seat, hon member. Hon member, please proceed.
Agb Speaker, punt van orde ... [Hon Speaker, on a point of order ...]
Yes, hon member
Dankie, agb Speaker. [Thank you, hon Speaker.] What I want to know is whether it is parliamentary that the Speaker can take a decision on behalf of the hon President.
The reason why I am asking this is because, in a previous Question Time in Parliament, the hon President himself referred to the report of the Public Protector. You must remember there are two reports. He responded to the first one, and when asked about actions he was going to take, he himself said that he would wait for the second report. Now, the hon President has received the second report. I want to know whether it is parliamentary that you, as Speaker, make a ruling to decide for the hon President whether he wants to answer or not. Because he said he would answer when he received the second report.
Hon member, please take your seat. [Interjections.] I will allow the member to finish her statement without reference to the Minister. And the Speaker takes the decision in terms of the Rules of the House, not any other Rules. Hon member, please continue.
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President, if this is the attitude of your government towards accountability, how will you persuade South Africans that you will follow through on your bid to bring accountability to municipalities? [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, the subject is about local government; I thought so. But the question that you have been debating so much has nothing to do with the answer that I have given. I don't know why I should answer that question, because the question is not related to Question 10 in terms of which we are talking about local government. The matter referred to is a matter not within the province of local government. That is my problem. We have taken decisions on the issues related to what I have raised here - that we are ready to take action if there is any wrongdoing and we will continue to do so in local government. We will continue to do so at any other level of government.
I am just saying that you have taken up a lot of your time on an unrelated matter. I am sure the members are very keen to hear about this matter. Its time will come. They will hear about it. Thank you. [Applause.]
Effectiveness of National Youth Development Agency
11. Ms S P Lebenya-Ntanzi (IFP) asked the President of the Republic:
(1) Whether he has found that the needs of the youth are being served by the National Youth Development Agency; if so, how; if not,
(2) whether he intends to establish a dedicated ministry for youth, similar to the Ministry of Women, Children and People with Disabilities, in order to serve the needs of the youth more effectively; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2515E
Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon members, the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, has presented before Parliament its three-year strategic plan and annual performance plan, focusing on key performance areas. These include economic participation, training and development, national youth service and social cohesion, youth advisory and information services, policy, research and development, as well as the National Youth Fund. This programme was agreed upon at the inception of the NYDA. It also served before the Joint Monitoring Committee on Children, Youth and Persons with Disabilities.
Based on the programmes and interventions outlined in the strategic and annual performance plans of the agency, it is certainly apparent that the NYDA is serving the needs of young people. It is important to highlight that, since its inception, the NYDA has made significant inroads in dealing with the challenges that continue to face young people in the country.
Among other things, the following have been realised: sustaining 61 341 employment opportunities; training 49 341 young people in entrepreneurship; training 84 205 young people in the National Youth Service programme, thus promoting entrepreneurship and patriotism amongst the youth; issuing 24 062 loans, valued at R60,4 million, to young people; facilitating business opportunities, valued at R142,8 million, for young people; and providing information to over 1,5 million young people through their various access points, including the call centre and its 144 local youth offices.
The NYDA's annual report for the 2010-11 financial year will be presented to Parliament this month, and the hon member will be able to access more specific information in the report.
Notwithstanding these achievements by the NYDA, amid budgetary constraints and related matters, more remains to be done in the quest to concretely develop young people to play a more pronounced role in all sectors of our society.
As must be acknowledged, the NYDA's achievements are but a drop in the ocean if we consider the many challenges facing young people in our country.
To support the NYDA in achieving its noble objectives, we call upon civil society, the private sector and all sectors of our society to join hands with government in prioritising youth development in their plans, including establishing youth directorates, as outlined in the National Youth Policy of 2009 to 2014. These directorates will foster seamless integration of youth development in the country.
Hon member, there is already a Minister responsible for youth development in Cabinet - the Minister for Performance Monitoring and Evaluation as well as Administration in the Presidency. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Yes, thank you, hon Speaker. Mr President, arising from your answer, I would like to point out a number of failures of the National Youth Development Agency. Their executives earn millions, while unemployment amongst the youth in the country hovers at 50%. The most noteworthy achievement of the NYDA, so far, has been a youth festival which cost taxpayers an outrageous R100 million. The NYDA claimed it was a success, but there was no tangible outcome in terms of youth development in South Africa.
Mr President, if a Ministry for the youth is not on the cards, what will this government do to assure South Africans that the interests, prosperity and success of all our country's youth, and not just a few connected ANC youth, will be looked after through the NYDA in future? And what mechanisms will be put in place to monitor the NYDA's performance, successes and failures? I thank you, Mr President. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, as I said in my answer, there is a Minister responsible for the youth, who is based in the Presidency. So, there is a place where accountability is done in respect of the youth. Regarding the matter of the Ministry of the youth, it has been discussed and the youth have debated that matter. They said that they do not need a Ministry at this point in time. In a sense, the youth feel that it is enough that they have a Minister who is responsible for them. That has been the position until now.
As to what happened during their conference, I am sure that you don't expect me to know those details and give an account of what happened on those days. I am also sure that, at the right time, you can ask the question of the relevant people. I don't think you are expecting me to tell you how much was budgeted, how much was used and how it was used.
So, I won't be able to give that answer right here, but all we know is that the report of the youth said the festival was a success. That is the report we were given, and we had no reason to say they were not telling the truth. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Thank you, hon Speaker. Mr President, the figures that you quoted just recently are from the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, and they certainly are impressive. But, we still have had no confirmation when we asked exactly how many positions have been created, and there is a lot of duplication.
However, given that the mandate of the NYDA is to address the serious problem of unemployment amongst South African youth and to promote education and skills training, how do you reconcile or justify the threats made by Andile Lungisa, chairman of the NYDA, to make South Africa ungovernable? I quote: "To close every street in South Africa, and if there is a cheese in your fridge they are going to take it." [Laughter.]
The NYDA is not a political party; it is a statutory body funded by the taxpayer to the tune of R1,3 billion from 2011 to 2014. Mr President, what is your view on the chaos and mayhem we have seen in our streets recently? Is this how a reasonable public servant, the chairman of the NYDA, should conduct himself? Thank you, sir.
Hon Speaker, I may be better informed because I'm not sure what platform Lungisa made the statement from. I'm not sure. Was he speaking on behalf of this youth organisation that he leads? [Interjections.] Did he say so? [Interjections.] No, no, no. I'm not asking what his position is. I'm asking if he was speaking on behalf of this organisation.
You can't separate the two. [Interjections.]
Why shouldn't I separate the two? Let the questioner answer me, so that I'll know what I'm talking about. [Interjections.]
It's irrelevant.
It is very relevant.
Yes, Chair. The chairman of the youth ...
Order!
Andile Lungisa was speaking at the Black Management Forum and there was a debate about the role of the youth. [Interjections.]
He was speaking about what? [Interjections.] I can't hear. He was speaking on behalf of the ...
He spoke at the Black Management Forum Young Professionals Summit in Cape Town, where he actually attacked the ANC government, young black professionals, African leaders and various others and said: "We are going to close every street in South Africa. If there is a cheese in your fridge, we are going to take it." [Laughter.] And he complained about the slowness of government delivery. [Interjections.] Is this the sort of thing ...
Order! Order! Order, hon members! Order!
Hon Speaker, the hon member has tried to answer my question. But because Lungisa is also a member of a political party, I want to know if he was speaking there as the chairperson of the NYDA or if he was speaking as a member of the ANC Youth League. That's what I want to know. I can't answer the question when I'm in the dark.
I believe he was speaking on behalf of the NYDA. [Interjections.]
Order! Order!
No, if you just believe ... you don't give me the truth because ...
Order! Order! Hon President, just hold on for a minute. The hon Minister might want to shed light on ...
Speaker, if you would allow me, in terms of the Rules, to assist the hon Robinson. The quotation she referred to appeared in a Sowetan edition two months ago. Two days after that edition, the honourable Lungisa made a statement saying he never said such a thing, nor would he ever threaten to destabilise this democracy which many of them fought so hard for. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Continue, hon President.
Hon Speaker, it's going to be difficult for me to answer a question premised on the wrong premise; that's my problem.
You can't have your cheese and eat it. [Laughter.]
I will do the right thing. If it is the cheese, if I were to eat it, it should be the right one, not the wrong one. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Hon Manamela, and please no more cheeses, Mr Manamela. [Laughter.]
Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon President, I think the first thing is that the NYDA is a youth development agency that is representative of most of the political youth formations, including the IFP Youth Brigade. But I don't know if the hon member from the IFP is suggesting that the IFP Youth Brigade members who are in the NYDA got in there because they are connected to the ANC or the ANC Youth League.
The second thing is that there was a youth convention which involved all the youth political formations in the country, which resolved that the forum of governance for youth development will be the NYDA, which is a combination of the Youth Commission and the Umsobomvu Youth Fund.
Thirdly, what we would want to see, through your monitoring and evaluation of all the Ministries and departments of government, is the extent of the implementation of the National Youth Policy, which has been agreed to by all the youth formations in our country. That's the one element which will result in our seeing youth development happening. We cannot allow a situation wherein the entire ...
Your time has expired, hon member. The hon President.
Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order, sir. This is Question Time and the hon member should be asking the hon President a question, not telling the hon President what he should be saying. [Interjections.]
Take your seat, hon member.
Hon Speaker, we will certainly ensure that we strengthen our monitoring of the activities of the NYDA. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, hon President. The question refers to the Ministry of Women, Children and People with Disabilities. People working for a better life for women, children and people with disabilities are saying that the new Ministry is, in fact, counterproductive and money used to create such a Ministry, which has no mandate to deliver services, is desperately needed to implement legislation like the Children's Act and many others.
Is the President prepared to relook at this situation and re-evaluate the need for this new Ministry? With this in mind, calls for a youth Ministry will create similar problems. We need to use all resources possible in delivering services where people are most vulnerable. Thank you.
Hon Speaker, well, I have not been exposed to those views that say this Ministry is not working; this is the first time I hear that. I don't know why I should apply my mind to that. We have a Ministry that is working so far. That issue has not arisen. So, I have not applied my mind to whether we should keep this Ministry or establish another one. This is the first time that I'm hearing that there are people who are dissatisfied. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
I thank the hon President. Before we move on to Question 12, I want to state that the Rules say - when the hon Manamela was making a point or a statement - "A member who asks a supplementary question may make a statement or express an opinion." So, when hon Manamela was making a statement, he was perfectly in order. [Applause.]
Mr Speaker, does that mean that the point of order by Mr Ellis was wrong?
Yes.
Well, I think we must be ...
And so is yours, if you don't sit down. [Laughter.]
Speaker, I'm just suggesting that we be lenient with Mr Ellis because tomorrow he leaves Parliament. [Laughter.]
The point has been noted.
Trip to Switzerland by Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs
12. Mr M G P Lekota (Cope) asked the President of the Republic: (1) Whether the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs provided any reason for undertaking a trip to Switzerland; if not, why not; if so, what reason did he provide;
(2) whether he accepted that the reason given was authentic and valid; if so, what are the relevant details; if not,
(3) whether he authorised the Minister to undertake the trip; if not, (a) how did the Minister justify his trip and (b) what report did he submit with regard to the trip; if so, what are the relevant details;
(4) whether he intends requesting that the Minister refund money spent on the trip if it is found to have been irregular; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(5) whether he intends taking any action against the Minister if the trip is found to have been unofficial; if not, why not; if so, (a) how and (b) when?