Hon Speaker, the first stakeholder engagement on the further transformation of the Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy, Palama, is taking place on 23 September 2011, after which further engagements will be managed as part of the implementation process. All university-based schools of governance and administration, together with other stakeholders, have been invited to be part of this consultation session.
A draft position paper on the project will be considered, in terms of which Palama will provide preparatory training interventions for future public servants, whilst continuing to offer orientation and advanced training of public officials appointed or elected. Thank you very much.
Is there any supplementary question, hon Moloi-Moropa? Is there no supplementary question?
Hon Speaker, Minister, arising out of the hon Minister's reply, Palama must now become a school of government. Although knowledge and skills are important elements in any training process, of the utmost importance in our Public Service at this stage is the cultivation of a climate of professional ethics. All public servants, including the executive authorities, should be schooled to understand the values and principles set out in Chapter 10 of our Constitution. To train people on values, ethics, principles and integrity is a difficult exercise.
How does Palama intend to do that? Minister, why have you not referred some of your colleagues in the Cabinet to such a course in ethics, integrity, etc, in order for them to follow it? I know, Minister, that just this morning in a committee meeting we were briefed on a draft document on the implementation of the Public Sector Integrity Management Framework. The challenge, obviously, is to ensure that this effort will not go down in history as just another document on paper, but that the implementation ... [Time expired.]
Hon Speaker, it is true that professional ethics or training in professional ethics in the Public Service is the way to go, as the Constitution, of course, indicates. It may appear to be difficult, but it is a task that Palama is equal to. Palama has come out with a training model that is modelled on creating an environment of training where we will produce public servants who hold the attributes of public servants who are ready to live up to what is expected of them.
The programme of advanced training for leadership is available, even for hon Members of Parliament. I thought that the hon member, before asking about whether I was encouraging others to participate, would have reported as to whether she had been part of the programme that Palama has provided for Members of Parliament in here. Maybe she will relate that later on. Thank you very much.
I have on my screen the following names: Hon Ms A Dlodlo, followed by hon Mr J J McGluwa. Hon Dlodlo, if you are not in the Chamber, please don't press the "to talk" button.
Thank you, Speaker. Fortunately, Minister, I am part of the programme mentioned. Arising out of the hon Minister's reply, my question to the Minister is: What is the Minister expecting from the national discussions, seeing that we are talking about an education indaba? I have noted that Palama is already busy in Parliament. How does this correlate with the partnership with Parliament in developing Members of Parliament and the programme that they initiated, compared to those of other institutions like the universities? Thank you.
Hon Speaker, I want to commend and congratulate the member on taking the decision to be part of the training.
What is intended with the consultations? They are to get the schools of public administration and governance attached to the universities to be part of assisting in terms of sharing when Palama becomes a school of public administration dealing with preparation for entry, and actually occupying the space between graduation and entry, into the Public Service.
We should then learn from these stakeholders, because ours is training that is meant to assist in strengthening a Public Service that is responsive to the needs of the people. That will be shifted in through the training as we work in regard to the attributes that we have referred to. That is exactly what we are planning to do.
The partnership that we have with Parliament will continue. It is a partnership that calls for needs-based training. We can then look at the priorities that Parliament expects in regard to training, and we will get into that accordingly. Thank you very much.
Turnaround strategy on the part of Sita, and the need to amend legislation on technology
71. Mrs J C Moloi-Moropa (ANC) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:
(1) Whether the State Information Technology Agency (Pty) Ltd, Sita, has commenced with a turnaround strategy in light of negative media reports and the Auditor-General's assessment; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) whether, with reference to the information and communications technology, ICT, of the public administration sector, he has found that there is a need to amend legislation regarding technology; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so,
(3) whether Sita has identified key areas where amendments are necessary; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2224E
Hon Speaker, the State Information Technology Agency, Sita, has commenced with the implementation of a turnaround strategy. The focus of the Sita turnaround strategy has been to deal with issues around institutional arrangements.
We can report what has been completed under that. The following situation now exists. Sita has adopted a new operating model that optimises value to the client through a co-ordinated and integrated approach to clients for guaranteed quality of service, and defines the Sita capability model to ensure the availability of the requisite skills in Sita to be able to deliver.
We have filled 95% of top management vacancies and have strengthened the board of Sita.
There are projects that are works in progress. These include the draft distribution model aimed at enhancing the capacity and performance of the Sita provincial offices as part of supporting local economic development; and the completion of the organisational restructuring exercise, inclusive of a new organisational design.
We can report that service delivery arrangements have been completed and that we have approved the implementation of strategies and initiatives aimed at lowering the cost of information technology goods and services to government. So yes, hon Speaker, Sita is on course in terms of implementing the turnaround strategy. I thank you.
Speaker, the public's perception of Sita is that of a scandal-ridden organisation. Irregular expenditure amounted to R214 million in the 2009-10 financial year, procurement processes have been mismanaged, criminal activities by Sita individual staff members have led to suspensions, etc.
Minister, you say that Sita's turnaround framework or strategy is on track. May I remind you of what you once said, and I quote:
I don't like to use the term "turnaround", because it often means you end up where you start ...
To prevent that from happening, why do you not close Sita's doors? Departments can then go directly to the industry to procure those services which Sita is unable to render or incapable of rendering at the required time, quality and price. Internal corruption will then no longer be a problem, and in the free market high-quality service can be enforced. If an IT company does not deliver, its services can be terminated and the department can move on to a company which does deliver. Thank you.
Hon Speaker, I just want to remind the hon member that public opinion is shaped by developments around institutions. It is true that when we developed the turnaround strategy we identified challenges. We then committed ourselves to programmes to address those challenges. These challenges include making sure that issues around pricing, Sita performance, and quality of service are addressed.
We want to report that, as we speak now, and since the introduction of the turnaround strategy, we have managed to reach out to those clients who were outside the Sita performance area and those who opted out because of their observations, and we have acknowledged to them that the intervention is addressing the problems and that the turnaround strategy is delivering. So, there is no point in thinking about addressing the issue that the hon member has raised, because the record speaks for itself. I thank you very much, hon Speaker.
Hon Speaker, I noted that the Minister's reply did not mention the irregular expenditure of R214 million. I wonder, hon Minister, if the turnaround strategy you are speaking about provides for adherence to the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, and whether it includes the issue of the recovery by Sita itself of the irregular expenditure of R214 million.
Hon Speaker, the institutional revitalisation of Sita meant that we were injecting into Sita, as part of the turnaround strategy, an arrangement where you had what it took to be there. You will remember that when we introduced the turnaround strategy we said we wanted to address a practice where, from an institutional point of view, operationally, you had an entity that was perfectly depleted in regard to having men and women who actually addressed that.
As we speak, we should look at the performance of Sita in terms of what has been confirmed, even by the Auditor-General, namely that Sita is performing in accordance with the provisions of the PFMA. There are, of course, areas where there is room for improvement. In that arrangement we are saying the record speaks for itself. You couldn't, at that stage, have a situation of a performing organisation perfectly depleted at organisational and executive levels. I think that is what we are reporting in this regard. Thank you very much.
Speaker, hon Minister, what progress has been made in stemming the high staff turnover and lack of core skills, especially at leadership and executive levels?
Hon Speaker, the member was speaking too fast. Can you please repeat your question; I couldn't pick up what you were saying.
What progress has been made with the high staff turnover and loss of core skills? Thanks.
On the progress made concerning the high turnover, I think you will remember that when we introduced the turnaround strategy, we were at the point of celebrating Sita's 10 years of existence. We indicated that in the 10 years of Sita's existence we had had the reality of a high turnover, where we had had more than 14 chief executive officers. We said that in the turnaround strategy we needed to look into the business of Sita and address what was not attracting people to stay in the organisation, given that Sita is one of the best-paying employer organisations. So, the progress in as far as this is concerned is that we can assure you that we have stability regarding the Sita staff complement. Thank you very much.
Release of strategic report by anticorruption interministerial committee
80. The Leader of the Opposition asked the Minister in the Presidency - Performance Monitoring and Evaluation as well as Administration in the Presidency:
(a) Why, in light of the fact that the fight against crime and corruption is one of the government's 12 priority outcomes, has the strategic report by the anticorruption interministerial committee that was established in November 2009, not been made public and (b) when will it be released? NO2319E The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY - PERFORMANCE MONITORING AND EVALUATION AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION: Speaker, yes, the ANC government has prioritised the fight against crime and corruption. The ANC government has also identified corruption as a key threat to achieving government objectives; hence our intense focus on it.
The President has shown commitment and leadership since coming to office and has demonstrated this commitment practically. With the support of Cabinet, he established a number of structures to deal effectively with this problem.
The interministerial committee and the anticorruption task team are amongst a few. These structures are supported by the law enforcement agencies, such as the Hawks, the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, the Asset Forfeiture Unit, and the National Prosecuting Authority. They are also working with key departments, such as the national Treasury and Justice and Constitutional Development, including the Police.
As the President said during his address to media owners earlier this month, in the last financial year he issued 18 proclamations authorising the SIU to conduct investigations, the highest ever in the history of this country.
In total, the SIU is currently investigating procurement contracts to the value of about R10 billion and conflicts of interest involving officials estimated at a value of about R5 billion. The SIU is also working closely with the Department of Police to investigate procurement irregularities in the building of 33 police stations worth approximately R330 million. Investigations are also under way in the national Departments of Rural Development and Land Reform, and Public Works, the Tshwane and Ekurhuleni Municipalities, and in the Western Cape.
In KwaZulu-Natal the anticorruption task team, together with the SIU, the Hawks, the National Prosecuting Authority, and the Asset Forfeiture Unit, has identified land reform farms to the value of about R60 million that might have been transferred to private individuals unlawfully. Farms valued at about R36 million have been recovered for the state.
The anticorruption task team has also been working with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs to probe municipalities under the banner of Operation Clean Audit. A total of 362 cases were received for investigation. To date, 291 arrests have been made. Of these, 167 are public servants, while 124 are members of the public. All have appeared in court. This effort has achieved 155 convictions, made up of 77 public servants and 78 members of the public. We are indeed making progress.
With regard to the interministerial committee, the work of the committee is to co-ordinate government efforts in this regard. The committee is also meant to ensure that all law enforcement agencies and departments are working together and doing work in a co-operative manner to rid our nation of this scourge. Let me make this clear: This is a Cabinet co-ordinating structure, and it reports to Cabinet. All structures of government and agencies account for their activities through annual reports and other existing parliamentary processes. The responsibility of this committee is to ensure that all these structures are functioning properly and are able to do their work without any problems.
Through this structure, we are able to guide the law enforcement agencies and departments to prioritise specific areas which we believe will lead to success and which we believe will lead to ways of removing problems around our economy. There is, amongst others, supply chain management at all levels of government. We have dealt with mining licences; identity theft, including fraud; social grants and cyber crime. However, all institutions have a responsibility to fight corruption in their own areas of work. Corruption is a scourge that is threatening our efforts to lead our country to prosperity. This government will not rest until it has removed this cancer from our society.
We are making steady progress as a country, and we call on the nation to join hands and deal with this problem. We also take this opportunity to ask anyone in our country who has any information that can assist in this effort to report that information to the relevant enforcement agencies. I thank you.
Speaker, far from practical demonstrations of commitment, it seems that the ANC administration has gone soft on corruption and tough on those bodies whose anticorruption investigations hit too close to home. The number of proclamations in this regard speaks volumes.
Cabinet recently proposed the establishment of an overarching anticorruption body to review the effectiveness of corruption-busting organs like the Public Protector. You said the idea of an overarching anticorruption body was still at an initial stage, but it has red flags. The only red flag is Cabinet's intention to trespass on ground that is constitutionally out of bounds. The Public Protector reports to Parliament, and its independence is constitutionally enshrined. Cabinet therefore has no mandate to interfere with its activities.
Why then, Minister, did Cabinet make this proposal? According to what criteria would Cabinet judge whether the Public Protector was effective or not, and what steps would Cabinet plan to take if the Public Protector was deemed "ineffective"?
Chairperson, I am sure that the member is asking a different question altogether. However, let me respond.
We are saying that we have a number of institutions which are involved in fighting crime and corruption. In that context we will have to find a way in which all of them can be co-ordinated. We have never spoken about the Public Protector. We are speaking about institutions which are supposed to be dealing with crime and corruption. There has been a call, from both the public and civil society, to say that we need to review our method of co- ordinating the structures which fight corruption. It is that process that we are dealing with. Thank you.
Speaker and hon Minister, the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation is not old; it is new. Through you, Speaker, could the Minister explain to the House where we draw the line between the functions of the anticorruption framework that he has just outlined in his department, and the functions of the anticorruption framework in the hon Baloyi's department, as the two departments stand? Would you clarify to us how they will function? If you will allow it, Speaker, both of them may respond. Thank you.
Speaker, obviously, as I said, we have a number of institutions and departments whose responsibility it is to deal with corruption of one kind or another. You have the National Treasury, which deals specifically with issues related to supply chain management. You have the Department of Public Service and Administration, which deals with the general problem of corruption and ethics within the public sector. You have the police and various units of the police, and you have other units which are dealing with this matter.
That is why we say that there needs to be a co-ordinated effort to fight corruption and what that will need to be. We have said that we need to review how effective the measures that we have are in dealing with the various forms of corruption and how effective the various institutions are in dealing with that. At the moment, there are various institutions, agencies, and departments that are responsible for one aspect of corruption or one aspect of that function. That is why we think that there is a need for us to do the review which is under way. Thank you.
Thank you very much, hon Minister. I won't allow any other Minister to respond to this question. There is only one Minister to do that. Hon Minister Baloyi, you don't have to bother to respond. I am not going to give you a chance to respond. It is not a question for you.
Quality of induction training for new councillors 72. Mrs M J Segale-Diswai (ANC) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:
What is his department's preliminary evaluation of the quality of induction training for new councillors? NO2311E
Speaker, in reply to the question, we would like to say that the induction programme was very well attended and served quite well in respect of its basic function, which was to give the newly elected councillors a basic understanding of their responsibilities and their roles.
In this regard, the programme included, amongst other things, a basic introduction to the structures and systems of local government; the roles and responsibilities of municipal councils; the personal and leadership skills required of the new councillors; the system of co-operative governance; and, of course, a basic introduction to financial management issues.
Obviously, the induction programme is only part of a major, intensive, ongoing programme of capacity-building for both councillors and officials. We would, of course, welcome Parliament's exercising rigorous oversight over this programme. Thank you.
I thank the hon Deputy Minister. Is there a supplementary question?
Yes, thank you. Deputy Minister, we are aware that the municipalities are already spending without a proper full induction on finance and supply chain management. I would like to know how the department is assisting the municipalities to spend correctly. Thank you.
Basically we are working together with National Treasury, the Auditor- General's office and a wide range of other stakeholders in assisting both councillors and officials to spend the money that they have better.
Obviously, it is only about nine weeks since the elections, and that programme is unfolding. It will be constantly unfolding, and we mean to ensure that they do spend money far more effectively, especially as many, many municipalities, and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, on their behalf, are asking for more money.
As the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, together with National Treasury, we are saying, yes, they can have more money, but first they should spend the money that they currently have far more productively and effectively. The more they do that, the better their case becomes to get additional money. We are very keen that Parliament engages with us around this over the next year and more. Thank you, indeed.
Speaker, I would like to ask the Deputy Minister, firstly, what role, if any, the department itself has in councillor training. Secondly, is he aware of any study of the training conducted historically and to date, and particularly whether there is any link between the training and the performance of councillors? I would like to know what the outcomes of training are. It is one thing for councillors to attend training; it is another thing whether it achieves a positive outcome.
Yes, firstly, Cogta is working with Salga on the first set of courses. We manage the courses together. We shape the courses together. Our relationship will increase over the next five-year period and more.
Secondly, yes, we are acutely aware that large sums of money have been invested in councillor training and education. Our own view is that we have not got back the return on our investment and that these programmes actually have to be far more effective than they currently are. I think there is no doubt about that.
Thirdly, we ourselves have undertaken small studies, but nothing of a significant degree yet, although this is on our agenda and we mean to do it. We have, in fact, raised this with Salga, because they came to ask for money. We said we could release more money, but we first had to see what they had done with the money allocated to them by us through the national Budget, and so on.
In short, we agree that much more needs to be done to ensure that the education programmes result in effective outcomes.
Hon Deputy Minister, there were two very obvious flaws in this training. They were so obvious, in fact, that they speak of poor planning and conception.
The first was that experienced councillors were intended to get the same training as the new councillors. Obviously, experienced councillors found that the training was of little use. So, why spend money on training experienced councillors if you are going to give them the same introductory course?
The second flaw was that in some cases trainers were former councillors from rural municipalities, who were expected to train metro councillors. There was a vast difference between the two.
Does the Minister agree that the training wasted money?
No, but I do agree that we could have done better. In the first instance, we are acutely aware that experienced councillors have different needs from new councillors - not always, but in most cases. However, we thought that for the first phase of it, we should have both experienced and new councillors together, because obviously the experienced councillors, as I am sure you will agree, would share some of their own experiences with the new councillors.
Secondly, I am not aware that rural councillors were asked to train urban municipal councillors. The fact that you are from a rural municipality obviously does not mean that you are not in a position to assist newly elected councillors in urban municipalities. It does not follow. In fact, many of the experiences in the more challenged municipalities in the rural areas will be of enormous value to those who are in more urban-oriented municipalities. So, I do not buy the view that it necessarily follows. In each case, one has to look at the specific merits and demerits.
The third thing to say is that we will, in fact, have a much more strategic and streamlined process as we go forward. We welcome your views here. You can do it via the committee. We actually also mean to focus specifically on full-time councillors and their more onerous responsibilities and the different training they will have to have.
We are also aware that those who serve on executive committees have a slightly different role from those who are backbencher councillors, as it were. Again, the needs for training differ. However, this is merely the first phase of an ongoing process that will persist until the terms of the current councils lapse. Thank you.
Speaker, the question is whether the Deputy Minister is satisfied that enough emphasis was placed on the Municipal Finance Management Act in the induction process.
No, and we will give keen attention to ensuring that this happens. Again, this means working more closely with Treasury. Yes, we need to do more.
Salary structure of municipal managers
86. Mr T Botha (Cope) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:
(1) Whether the salary structure of municipal managers has been reviewed after the 2011 local government elections; if not, why not; if so, (2) whether a ceiling has been placed on the salaries of municipal managers; if not, which municipalities pay their managers salaries in excess of R800 000; if so, (a) what ceiling and (b) what are the further relevant details?