When you give that power away to a Minister of State and Security, you will not be able retrieve it. When you relinquish power, it is gone, and it is gone forever for your children and grandchildren. [Interjections.]
What the hon Burgess has told you just happens not to be true! This is a concertina Bill. Look at the type of misrepresentation to you, the Members of Parliament. He tells you that this Bill applies only to the organs of the security apparatus. It is true. But what he doesn't tell you is that the scope of this Bill can be expanded to make it applicable to each and every organ of state as authorised by Cabinet. The scope of this Bill is potentially unlimited. So, the very problem that we are trying to correct is persisting. We are not all mad, Mr Burgess. I have read this Bill. The universities have read this Bill. The churches have read this Bill, and many of the members of the ANC have read this Bill. We do know it is a bad, bad, bad Bill. The only question before your conscience is: What will you do about it? Will it be in favour of party lines and party dictatorship or the rule of freedom for which we fought? The choice is yours. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, a foreign journalist recently asked me this question: Which country in Africa has the strongest opposition? My answer was: Zimbabwe has the strongest opposition in Africa. The MDC has 100 seats as opposed to the 99 of Mugabe's Zanu-PF and 10 seats of Mr Arthur Mutambara.
To determine how democratic a country is, Robert Dahl asks three questions in his book Political Oppositions in Western Democracies: Firstly, are all people allowed to vote? Secondly, does the right exist for an opposition to be represented in Parliament? Thirdly, may an opposition and the public speak their minds and be organised against the government?
In Zimbabwe, everybody is allowed to vote, an opposition is allowed in Parliament, and an opposition party is allowed to be organised. However, the freedom of the press and other instruments of democracy are gagged and because of this, the European Union has, from time to time, renewed sanctions against Zimbabwe. Why? It is because Zimbabwe, according to them, is totally undemocratic. Why does Zimbabwe have the strongest opposition in Africa, but the country is viewed to be undemocratic? It is because democratic instruments to ensure free media and the protection - that is the issue here - of whistle-blowers are severely curtailed.
Stated differently, if these instruments do not work or are watered down, one starts on the road to dictatorship. In the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four Big Brother's principal weapon of choice is the ability to control all forms of information and expression. Today, we have in front of us a Bill that opens a door to the control of information in South African society. We believe that it fundamentally undermines the Constitution and the rights to freedom of expression and information. Therefore, the FF Plus supports opposition co-operation to get a third of the members of this House to refer the Bill to the Constitutional Court for a final say.
Die feit dat die wetsontwerp soveel keer gepaneelklop moes word, vanwe die opposisie se kommer, is juis die getuienis dat die ANC nie die onskuldigste van bedoelings aanvanklik daarmee gehad het nie. Hierdie wetsontwerp het die opposisie, die burgerlike samelewing en selfs stoere ANC-ondersteuners soos Adv George Bizos en Prof Turok teen die ANC laat saamsnoer. Die arme Prof Turok word vandag deur 'n adjunkminister en mnr Landers langs hom gepatrolleer om hom in lyn te hou. [Gelag.] Ek glo dit was hierdie oorweldigende opposisie van binne en buite die Parlement wat die ANC van verskeie drakoniese klousules laat afsien het. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[The fact that the Bill has had to be beaten into shape so often due to the opposition's concerns, is the very proof that the ANC did not have the most innocent of intentions with it initially. This Bill made the opposition, civil society, and even staunch ANC supporters such as Adv George Bizos and Prof Turok join forces against the ANC. And today poor Prof Turok is being patrolled by a Deputy Minister and Mr Landers next to him so as to keep him in line. [Laughter.] I believe it was this overwhelming opposition from inside and outside of Parliament that made the ANC ditch various draconian clauses.]