Order, hon Deputy Minister! Could we please get interpretation?
MOTLATSATONA WA LEFAPHA LA PHOLO: Ke ratile mantswe a ga rre Setona a a reng re utlwisise gore re tswa kae; gore re godisitswe ke bona bomm ba ba neng ba rekisa "umqombothi" le tsona "diloose draw", mme re sa lebale gore le ka tsona dinako tseo e ne e le mafelo a a neng a tsenwa ke bagolo fela e seng bana, jaaka gompieno. Se re tshwanetseng go se kgalema ke gore mo malatsing a, bana ke bona ba nwang bojalwa e bile ba tsubang. Mantswe a ga mm Kgarebe a gore peleng bana ba ne ba utlwa batsadi ke boammaruri, ke a a tshegetsa. Rona ba bangwe ga e sa le re letile bomalome gore ba tle go re naya bojalwa le motsoko, ga ba goroga. Ke mo ga ke tsube, ga ke nwe, ka ntlha ya gore malome o ganne. Re tshwanetse go kopanya molao wa setho le molao o re o fetisang gompieno gore re sireletse bana ba rona le set? haba. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: I cannot agree more with Mr Setona. We must understand where we come from: We were nurtured by mothers who made a living by selling "umqombothi" and "loose draws", but we should not forget that even then it was only adults who were allowed in those places, unlike today. What we regret is the fact that children today are the ones who drink and smoke. This is true, and I also support Ms Kgarebe's view that children in the past obeyed their parents. Some of us have long been waiting for our uncles to give us approval of drinking and smoking, and they have not arrived. Here I am today; I neither smoke nor drink, just because my uncle did not approve of it. We must incorporate the element of human morality into this law that we are passing today so that we can protect our children and society.]
Hon Thetjeng refers to questions of choice, while other members have referred to questions of rights. Certainly we have to identify choices that are harmful to society. And, indeed, when it comes younger people, there are some choices that are harmful to them and cannot be allowed on the basis that our Constitution guarantees certain rights and choices.
The hon Fransman made the point about the extent of smoking amongst pregnant women which reflects the harm done to unborn children. I think that is the most serious warning about the impact of smoking amongst our people and makes the case for this Bill even stronger.
Hon Mazibuko, I have considered your remarks and, certainly, also the matter that you've raised about sellers who are being forced to display prominently the signs about the dangers of smoking. I think the hon Govender was calling for the same thing, that sellers must be forced to display even more graphically the impact of smoking. I would agree with him; that is what we are providing for.
We have to consider what will be economical - the size of the picture, how many words do we print and so on - for the producer. And we've tried to strike a balance between the amount, space and cost of the message without compromising on the message to be conveyed. It is, indeed, unfortunate that we could not go as far as forcing people to print the information in Braille, as hon Govender suggests.
Mama Vilakazi, it's true, you have made a very basic point about the economics in the home and the dangers of smoking. But, indeed, people divert money from food. The Minister of Finance can increase the price and tax for tobacco - which is one of the deterrents - but instead of people reducing the money they spend on tobacco, they reduce the money spent on food and other essentials. I think we, therefore, have to make it a point that people don't smoke so that the choice between food and cigarettes is not made at all. The fires that we regularly see in poor areas are a known and very tragic fact which we are familiar with.
Ms Mackay, your reference to children being rewarded with smoking brings to mind the tot system of the past - a very evil system. I can't imagine anything more gruesome than that.
Hon members, I've tried to cover all areas and we have, indeed, noted some of the points. The point made about the campaign going into the prisons is very good and will have to be followed up because people have again talked about all sorts of dangers prisoners are exposed to there. They have never mentioned smoking, which is something we need to look at.
I have not responded to every specific point, hon members. Some of the points raised are taken as advice. In fact, I believe that it's better to incorporate them into our regulations. It's not been possible to incorporate every concern into the Bill as it is now. But there will be an opportunity when we draft the regulations to address some of the points you have raised. The regulations will also make it possible to be speedy and flexible in tightening up this Bill as and when it's necessary.
Yes, it's true that this is not a battle we are going to win with legislation only. We've done very well as a country through legislation and we are a world leader. So I agree with members and hon Setona, when he said that it has to be about values, community pressure, popular sanction and disapproval that make it a shame, costly and totally unacceptable for people to smoke.
The fact is that the tobacco industry is shifting from the West to the East and South - that is, the countries of the South. They are shifting within countries; and from the rich to the poor as they chase new markets. So it is a serious struggle and we do need to mobilise all of the sectors and all our people.
Once more, hon members, thank you very much for your support in this important work. I thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.