Hon Speaker, may I address you on a point of order?
Yes.
Mr Speaker, I rise to address you on a point of order in terms of Rule 97(b): I wish to move the postponement of an Order of the Day as determined by Rule 97(c). I therefore move on behalf of the DA:
That the House postpone the Second Order on the Order Paper in terms of Rule 97(c).
That is the Second Reading of the Financial Services Laws General Amendment Bill [B29B-2012] and is in view of the fact that due process was not followed in facilitating the Second Reading debate. I so move.
Hon members, a motion has now been moved by the Chief Whip of the DA. Ordinarily, a motion without notice requires the unanimous concurrence of all members present in order for it to be moved. However, Rule 97 makes an exception for a motion for the postponement of, discharge of, or giving precedence to an Order of the Day, or referring a Bill to a committee. For that reason the motion has to be put to the House for a decision.
I now put the question: That the motion of the Chief Whip of the Opposition be agreed to. Are there any objections to the adoption of the report? No objections? Those in favour will say, "Aye".
HON MEMBERS: Aye!
Those against will say, "No". [Interjections.]
Speaker, when you put the question there was no objection ... [Interjections.] ... and there is still no objection.
Hon Speaker, we object! [Laughter.]
Order! Order, hon members! There is no objection, so the report has been adopted. [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: No, no, no! It is the motion! You put the motion.
Order! Yes, we are actually on the motion that was moved by the DA, and the ANC objected to the motion. Let me put it again, in case there is lack of clarity. I now put the motion. Those in favour will say, "Aye".
HON MEMBERS: Aye!
Those against will say, "No".
HON MEMBERS: No!
I think the noes have it. If parties want their objections recorded, we will record their objections.
Mr Speaker, the DA calls for a division, and I promise to stay in the House! [Interjections.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 54:Alberts, A D; Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Esau, S; Farrow, S B; George, D T; Greyling, L W; Harris, T D; Hill-Lewis, G G; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa, S; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Rogers, F A; Ross, D C; Sayedali Shah, M R; Schafer, D A; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Steenhuisen, J H; Steyn, A C; Swart, S N; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van den Berg, N J; Van Der Linde, J J; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Watson, A; Wenger, M.
NOES - 183:Abram, S; Adams, P E; Ainslie, A R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bonhomme, T; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Bothman, S G; Burgess, C V; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, M A; Chabane, O C; Chikunga, L S; Chili, D O; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlakude, D E; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Duma, N M; Ferguson, B D; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Huang, S-B; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kganare, D A; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, N N J v R; Kwankwa, N L; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lesoma, R M M; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mac Kenzie, G P D; Madisha, W M; Madlala, N M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Magama, H T; Magubane, E; Mahomed, F; Makasi, X C; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makwetla, S P; Maluleka, H P; Mandela, Z M D; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; McIntosh, G B D; Mdaka, M N; Mdakane, M R; Mfeketo, N C; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Mohai, S J; Mohale, M C; Mohorosi, M M; Mokoena, A D; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moni, C M; Morutoa, M R; Motsoaledi, P A; Mpontshane, A M; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; Ndabandaba, L G B; Ndebele, J S; Ndlazi, A Z; Ndlovu, V B; Ndude, H N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngonyama, L S; Ngubeni-Maluleka, J P; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Ntuli, B M; Nxesi, T W; Nxumalo, M D; Nyalungu, R E; Nyekemba, E; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Radebe, G S; Schneemann, G D; Segale- Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; September, C C; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibiya, D; Sindane, G S; Singh, N; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skosana, M B; Smith, V G; Sogoni, E M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Surty, M E; Swanepoel, D W; Thibedi, J D; Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala, J; Tsotetsi, D R; Twala, N M; van Rooyen, D D; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Wayile, Z G; Williams, A J; Williams-De Bruyn, S T; Xasa, T; Xingwana, L M; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, B Z.
Question not agreed to.
Motion accordingly negatived.
Mr Speaker, can the objection of the DA to this be noted, please?
Objection to the vote? [Interjections.] Thank you very much, but you cannot object to the vote. The vote has taken place.
We are objecting to the outcome of the vote.
The vote? [Interjections.] This is democracy. You can't object to a democratic process. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order! Order! Order! [Interjections.] Order! Order! Order!
Hon Speaker, democracy has prevailed and the masses have spoken through their duly elected representatives. [Applause.] We are not shocked by these tendencies emerging on the eve of the elections. There are weird tendencies emerging - people are objecting even to democracy itself!
The Financial Services Laws General Amendment Bill makes the financial sector safe by strengthening the regulatory powers of the Financial Services Board, FSB. The Bill is in line with international practice, which enhances the quality of supervision.
Indeed, after the 2008 global financial crisis the Group of Twenty, G20, the International Monetary Fund, IMF, the Financial Stability Board and all international regulatory associations ... [Interjections.]
Hon members, order! Allow the speaker to be heard.
... have shifted to a more intensive and intrusive approach to regulating the financial sector. In South African terms this approach is called draconian and "kragdadig" [hard-hitting].
The Bill aims to align nonbanking financial sector legislation with the international standards adopted by the cited international institution. As policymakers and regulators we are faced with the challenges of driving forward regulatory reforms, taking in lessons from the past and current experience.
We recognise the need to enhance the effectiveness of financial sector regulation and the ability of regulators to respond swiftly and decisively to risks to the stability of the financial system. At the same time, the regulatory framework must ensure appropriate accountability of regulators.
The Bill updates our approach to regulating the financial sector and it is an important interim step towards the envisaged implementation of the twin peaks regulatory framework. The Bill addresses debts identified by the Financial Sector Assessment Programme conducted by the IMF and the World Bank regarding South Africa's adherence to international standards for financial regulation. Inter alia, the Bill provides for enhanced supervisory powers by establishing the FSB as the lead regulator where there is concurrent jurisdiction in respect of the same entities. It further clarifies the status of FSB legislation in relation to other legislation.
The Bill proposes a consequential amendment to the definition of a medical scheme in the Medical Schemes Act to facilitate the appropriate demarcation between health insurance products and medical schemes. Contrary to some misplaced and bizarre argument, in no way does the Bill seek to tamper with the appropriateness of its own tagging or that of the Medical Schemes Act. Speaker, allow me to express sincere words of gratitude to members of the Standing Committee on Finance for their hard work in scrutinising the Bill. Their wisdom and insight have ensured that the Bill before the House keeps South Africa's nonbanking financial sector regulatory framework up with the best in the world. We thank the Minister and his National Treasury team for prompt and succinct responses to concerns and queries that emerged during the process.
I humbly submit to the House the Financial Services Laws General Amendment Bill for its support. Ke a leboga! Baie dankie! [Thank you!] [Applause.]
There was no debate.
Hon Speaker, may we make a declaration of vote please?
You may indeed.
Declarations of vote:
Hon Speaker, what a blow for democracy. The ANC uses its majority to shut down a debate on a Bill, and I certainly join the hon Kalyan in objecting.
This is because the fact that this is a statement rather than a debate sets a distressing precedent. The committee had no consensus that it should be a statement, because the DA consistently requested a debate, which we were within our rights to do. If this is the way ... [Interjections.] ...
Order, hon members! Order!
... Parliament conducts itself, then there is nothing stopping the ANC from using their majority to block a debate on any Bill! [Interjections.]
I sincerely hope that this does not set a precedent, because this Bill is deeply technical, but it is also very political. Here Treasury gives regulators draconian powers that are excessively harsh and severe, and, importantly, it does not balance these powers with increased accountability.
When it comes to financial regulation, the National Treasury consistently overreach themselves. They introduce draconian rather than appropriate measures, they give additional powers to the regulators at the expense of civil liberties, and they use direct intervention as a tool for regulation, when competition would clearly work much more effectively. This fundamentally threatens the financial sector, the largest contributor to our gross domestic product, the goose that lays the golden egg. During the committee process we managed to get Treasury to agree to file off a few of the nastiest edges of the Bill. However, serious problems remain. On the limitation of liability, this Bill allows the FSB officials to act in a way that is grossly negligent. It sets the bar of accountability far too low. It means, in effect, that FSB officials will be able to act in a seriously careless way and not be held liable for their actions! Surely we cannot have regulators behaving in such a way.
Secondly, it defines the concepts of policyholder protection provisions, which we accept. However, these provisions should be published by the Minister and not the regulator. They should be of general application and Parliament should have oversight over them. None of these conditions are met in the Bill.
Thirdly and fourthly, there are problems with delegated functions and major question marks over this factor, and problems with the tagging of the Bill. It deals with health services defined in Schedule 4 of the Constitution as a provincial competency. Surely this should be a section 76 Bill. Not only are there problems with Treasury's overreach, but there are problems with the tagging of the Bill too.
The DA put all of these arguments forward in the committee, and each one of them was systematically voted down by the ANC without their considering them. This is why the DA does not support this Bill. I hope that this Parliament never again sees a day when the ANC's majority shuts down Parliament's right to a full debate. I thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, when this 280-page Bill landed on our desks earlier this year, I knew it was going to be a technical one. After it was advertised for comment, it was formally sent to the committee comprising 116 pages of proposed amendments to 11 different laws. One really got a feeling in the committee of the extent of the legislation that financial institutions and their fraternity must comply with.
According to Prof Robert Vivian of Wits, and I quote:
Even if persons working in the industry wanted to grasp the import of this mass of legislation, they would simply not be able to do so.
The period for public comment was extended twice. Many of the amendments flow from the policy paper, "A safer financial sector to serve South Africa better" and we can expect to see more in a shift towards the twin peaks model of financial regulations.
The primary objective of the Bill is to ensure that our financial services industry will be better, and also to address any further potential risk to our system. We have to be able to move fast in this environment, and therefore have slightly more regulatory powers. The Financial Services Board has been criticised in the past as being too slow. There are no excuses now.
More than 250 amendments were added by the committee. I want to thank the Treasury and all officials who assisted the committee. The DA had the chance to file a minority report - and we have not seen that report. [Applause.]
Adjunkspeaker, die ANC-regering bevorder stabiliteit in finansile markte ten einde groei en ontwikkeling te bevorder waarsonder direkte buitelandse belegging vir werkskepping nie sal kan plaasvind nie. Die feit dat die ANC-regering daarin slaag om stabiliteit te skep, word algemeen deur internasionale organisasies erken.
In die geval van die wetsontwerp onder bespreking, gee toepaslike wetgewing, soos deur die Nasionale Tesourie voorgeskryf en toegepas, uitvoering aan Suid-Afrika se G20-verpligtinge ten opsigte van die versterking van die stryd teen finansile markmisbruik en -manipulasie. Wysigings aan die onderhawige wette is ook nodig om gapings in die finansile sektor se regulatoriese raamwerk aan te spreek en om die raamwerk te verstewig. Die gapings is gedentifiseer deur die Internasionale Monetre Fonds en die Wreldbank se finansile sektorevaluering van Suid-Afrika se nakoming van internasionale regulatoriese praktyke ten opsigte van die regulering van die bank- en versekeringswese.
Die Wet op Mediese Skemas, in sy huidige formaat, het 'n invloed op die finansile dienstesektor waar doeltreffende finansile toesig nodig is - doeltreffende toesig wat slegs deur die Raad op Finansile Dienste uitgevoer kan word en dus vereis dat die wetgewing as artikel 75 geklassifiseer moet word. Die misplaaste logika van die DA is gebaseer op die foutiewe benadering dat mediese hulpskemas met gesondheid verband hou en gesondheid daarom 'n konkurrente funksie is wat dan sou vereis dat die wetsontwerp as artikel 76 geklassifiseer moet word.
Tydens die openbare verhore het die Raad op Mediese Skemas se verteenwoordiger genoem dat die DA se voorlegging in hierdie verband glad nie sin maak nie, aangesien mediese skemas nie provinsiaal gebaseer is nie en daar dus afgelei moet word dat die DA mediese skemas wil desentraliseer. Hierdie saak is eers op die laaste oomblik deur die DA te berde gebring toe die staande komitee op die punt was om die wetsontwerp af te teken. 'n Mens kan maar net raai wat die bedenklike motief agter hierdie onlogiese, obstruktiewe optrede is. Die DA gryp na grashalms in 'n patetiese poging om die regerende party in die aanloop tot die verkiesing in 'n swak lig te stel. Ek dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Ms P E ADAMS: Deputy Speaker, the ANC-led government promotes stability in financial markets in order to promote growth and development without which foreign direct investment for job creation will not be possible. It is generally acknowledged by international organisations that the ANC-led government is succeeding in creating stability.
In the case of the Bill under discussion, relevant legislation, as prescribed and applied by National Treasury, gives effect to South Africa's G20 obligations with regard to intensifying the fight against financial market abuse and manipulation. Amendments to the legislation in question are also necessary to address the gaps in the financial sector's regulatory framework, and to reinforce the framework. These gaps were identified by the International Monetary Fund and World Bank's financial sector assessment of South Africa's compliance with international regulatory practices in respect of regulating the banking and insurance industries.
The Medical Schemes Act in its current format has an impact on the financial services sector where effective financial oversight is necessary - effective oversight that can only be exercised by the Financial Services Board, which consequently requires that the Bill be classified as section 75. The misplaced logic of the DA is based on the erroneous approach that medical aid schemes have relevance to health and that health is therefore a concurrent function, which would then require that the Bill be classified as section 76. During the public hearings, the Medical Aid Board's representative mentioned that the DA's submission in this regard did not make any sense at all, and since medical schemes are not provincially based it could be deduced then that the DA wants to decentralise medical schemes. This matter was only brought up by the DA towards the end when the standing committee was about to sign off the Bill. One can only speculate about the doubtful motive behind this illogical, obstructive conduct. The DA is grasping at straws in a pathetic attempt to discredit the governing party in the run-up to the elections. I thank you. [Applause.]]
Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 185: Abram, S; Adams, L H; Adams, P E; Ainslie, A R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Beukman, F; Bhanga, B M; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bonhomme, T; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Bothman, S G; Burgess, C V; Cebekhulu, R N; Cele, M A; Chabane, O C; Chikunga, L S; Chili, D O; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlakude, D E; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Ferguson, B D; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; George, M E; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Huang, S-B; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Kganare, D A; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, N N J v R; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lesoma, R M M; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Madlala, N M; Madlopha, C Q; Mafolo, M V; Magama, H T; Magubane, E; Mahomed, F; Makasi, X C; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makwetla, S P; Maluleka, H P; Mandela, Z M D; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; McIntosh, G B D; Mdaka, M N; Mdakane, M R; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mnisi, N A; Mnqasela, M; Mocumi, P A; Mohai, S J; Mohale, M C; Mohorosi, M M; Mokoena, A D; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moni, C M; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motsoaledi, P A; Mpontshane, A M; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; Ndabandaba, L G B; Ndebele, J S; Ndlazi, A Z; Ndlovu, V B; Ndude, H N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngonyama, L S; Ngubeni-Maluleka, J P; Ngwenya- Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, S J; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nxumalo, M D; Nyalungu, R E; Nyekemba, E; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, G S; Schneemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; September, C C; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibiya, D; Sindane, G S; Singh, N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skosana, M B; Smith, V G; Sogoni, E M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Surty, M E; Swanepoel, D W; Swart, S N; Thibedi, J D; Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala, J; Tsotetsi, D R; van Rooyen, D D; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Williams, A J; Williams-De Bruyn, S T; Xasa, T; Xingwana, L M; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, B Z.
NOES - 38:Alberts, A D; Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; George, D T; Greyling, L W; Harris, T D; James, W G; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Marais, S J F; Marais, E J; Mokgalapa, S; Motau, S C; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Robinson, D; Rogers, F A; Ross, D C; Schafer, D A; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Van den Berg, N J; Van Der Linde, J J; Van Der Westhuizen, A P; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Watson, A; Wenger, M.
Question agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a second time.