I have been informed that the hon Minister of State Security will be answering questions of behalf of the Minister of Police.
Deputy Speaker, on subsection (1) of Question 48, the answer is as follows. Yes, the Tshwane Academy is an institution of the SA Police Service, SAPS, which accommodates approximately 1 900 trainees at any given time.
There are college orders for running an institution and these are used at all SAPS academies, and not at the Tshwane Academy only. While trainees are still in training at these academies, they are allowed to visit their families every two months. All trainees sign a memorandum of agreement in regard to conditions of training and service.
The trainees at all colleges graduated on 1 March 2013, except for two colleges, Philippi and Oudtshoorn, which had theirs on 26 and 28 February 2013 respectively.
All academies have bungalows where the trainees are accommodated, and which are constantly monitored in regard to cleanliness and hygienic appearance.
With regard to subsection (2) of Question 48, all academies are managed in accordance with the college orders and the requirements of the programme. I would like to stress the fact that SAPS colleges are not like other normal colleges, such as nursing colleges. They are run in terms of the orders which have been issued for running such colleges. I thank you very much.
Deputy Speaker, I thank the Minister for the response. I want to ask the following. Minister, you saw the orders. One of the things that has come to our attention is that the Tshwane College is actually abusing what you might call the orders, including brutalising and assaulting those who are called trainees. The worst is that they are described almost like maximum security prisoners. What you are saying, that trainees are allowed to go home every two months, is not actually happening. Minister, are you willing to attend to this and investigate what is happening?
Let me read to you what one of the students from there has written. He says:
My dad passed away on 17 November 2012. I was refused permission to go home. As a result my dad's body decomposed in the house. According to the contract, I had a right to go home, but was denied the right, resulting in my old, unemployed mother becoming traumatised, as she had stayed there and slept with the corpse inside the house for two days. I had been denied permission. Can you follow that up, Minister? [Time expired.]
We will definitely follow that up. I will ask the Minister when he comes back to follow that up, because the orders are very clear - there is no abuse in those orders. People are allowed, at least twice, to visit their families, as I have said. But if there are alleged abuses, as the member has said, we will definitely conduct an investigation into the matter and come back to him.
Deputy Speaker, of course, this will also be directed to the Minister of State Security because neither the Minister of Police nor his Deputy has graced us with their presence today!
I fear the Minister of State Security probably won't know that 5 847 of the 160 000 SAPS officers in our country were the only ones who received training in sexual offences between 2008 and 2011. That's a shocking 3,6%! As there is no point in asking him what the terms of reference in relation to the Ministry of Police are, I will ask him whether this figure - 3,6% of SAPS officers trained - reflects the seriousness with which the government is taking the acts of sexual violence in this country.
The member is aware that she is one of those who ask questions pertaining to how we deal with domestic violence and sexual offences. However, the question which I am answering now pertains to alleged abuses at the Tshwane training facility. I thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minister is answering questions about abuses in an academy which is meant to teach policemen not to abuse people!
Now my question is as follows. If you and I, Madam Deputy Speaker, were to tie a guy behind our car, drive with him in tow in front of a crowd, and kill him in the process, we would be arrested and would have a very hard time in getting out of jail on bail. However, when policemen do that, they are placed on suspension with full pay! Yet there is no exception in the criminal court for the crimes of manslaughter, homicide and murder if they are committed by a policeman.
So the question to the Minister is this: How come they do not just get arrested for the same conduct for which they would arrest any of us if we were to commit it?
This is definitely a new question, but I will try and assist the member. It has got nothing to do with this question.
Yesterday we repeated what was in a statement we issued concerning what we were doing about the incident that occurred in Gauteng, where a person was abused by members of the Police Service.
The hon member is aware that the police do not investigate themselves. We have set up an institution called the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, and they are carrying out an investigation currently. The members of the SAPS were arrested and there is a case in court.
What we are appealing for, hon member, is that those members of the public who have information to assist the Ipid should hand that to them urgently, so that we can have swift justice in such cases of alleged abuse. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the hon Minister what measures, if any, are in place for student constables to raise concerns and problems during their basic training without their being victimised. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Yes, we do have measures in place.
Firstly, the students can direct their complaints in writing to the head of the institution, who is obliged to respond. Secondly, in all these academies we have students' representative councils, who are supposed to meet with the management of these institutions on a regular basis. Those are the current measures we have in place.
We also have the standing orders, which we expect those that are responsible for these institutions to respect, and if they do not respect them, they will be liable for disciplinary action. Thank you.
Details regarding reviewing by National Prosecuting Authority of prosecutors' previous decisions
36. Mr J B Sibanyoni (ANC) asked the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development:
Whether the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, reviews previous decisions taken by prosecutors in withdrawing cases; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO311E
Deputy Speaker, the answer is, yes, there are circumstances where the National Director of Public Prosecutions or any other senior NPA official has reviewed decisions taken by prosecutors in withdrawing cases. It is, however, important to mention that prosecutors may withdraw cases for a variety of reasons; for example, where the police have not finalised the investigation of the matter and require more time, where the court has indicated that it will not grant a further remand, where witnesses are not available, where there is insufficient evidence, and where an accused or key witness is deceased.
I need to emphasise, though, that any withdrawal does not necessarily mean that the prosecutor has declined to prosecute, and the question of whether a decision taken by the prosecutor to withdraw a matter will be reviewed will depend on the circumstances of each and every case and the reasons for the withdrawal, as I have just indicated.
The NPA has issued very clear policy directives regarding the withdrawal of cases. For example, a criminal case, once enrolled, may be withdrawn only on very compelling grounds, and whenever a case is withdrawn, the reasons for the withdrawal must be noted on the docket. Victims, complainants, witnesses and the police may always approach the NPA if they are not satisfied with the decision of a prosecutor to withdraw a case or to prosecute or not to prosecute, and they do so on a very regular basis. Thank you.
Hon Sibanyoni, do you have a supplementary question? Hon members...
... ncokolani kancinci tu, ndiyayiva ingxolo yenu apho. [... please keep your voices down. I can hear you there.]
Deputy Speaker, let me thank the hon Minister for his detailed answer. My short follow-up question is whether I would be correct if I said that the National Director of Public Prosecutions would be more vigilant in relation to the prosecutions in the lower courts than in the High Courts. This is because in the lower courts you will find that the prosecutors are more junior or inexperienced than in the case of the High Courts where you find senior advocates prosecuting. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Deputy Speaker, I agree with the comment by hon Sibanyoni that in the lower courts we obviously do not have so many experienced prosecutors, while in the higher courts there is a tendency to have more senior counsel who represent the state in those matters. So obviously they will hover over such matters in the lower courts to ensure that the policy directives are being implemented appropriately.
Hon Deputy Speaker, neither the hon Minister nor we can intrude, nor do we wish to do so, on the prosecutorial independence of the NPA, but there are things that both he and we can do under the National Prosecuting Authority Act.
My question is whether he will use his section 33 powers to ask for reports on and reasons for what appears to be an emerging pattern of politically motivated withdrawal of charges in Kwazulu-Natal. Such a request may prompt a section 22 review, which the National Director of Public Prosecutions can undertake, or an investigation which he can use for such purposes.
We, Madam Deputy Speaker, certainly intend to use our section 35 powers to hold the NPA to account for the withdrawal of charges in the "Amigos" case against KwaZulu-Natal Legislature Speaker Nkonyeni and MEC Mabuyakhulu.
Charges of bribery have been provisionally withdrawn in the case of the businessman, Mr Toshan Panday. Can the hon Minister, in a second answer, confirm whether a relative of President Zuma is involved in business with Mr Panday?
Hon Deputy Speaker, I am a Minister who is always hands-on but not hands-in! [Laughter.] I utilise both the Constitution and the National Prosecuting Authority Act to ask the NPA to give me reasons for why they do certain things, as I am obliged to do in terms of the Constitution and the law.
I indicated to hon Smuts yesterday that I already have pending a meeting with the Acting National Director of Public Prosecutions on the issues that she has highlighted, in particular on the KwaZulu-Natal one.
So, the point I'm making is that the long and the short of it is that I ask all the time why it is necessary, so that I as the Cabinet member responsible for the NPA, who exercises final responsibility, am fully informed.
Deputy Speaker, I want to ask the Minister what can be regarded as compelling reasons for the withdrawal of a case, when the NPA states that the withdrawal is to avoid a spectacle, as in the Richard Mdluli case?
Deputy Speaker, a compelling reason is determined by each particular case. There is no formula that gives guidelines on a compelling case; each case depends on its own merits.
Deputy Speaker, I am sure the hon Minister is aware of the information that came from the Mail & Guardian with regard to about 600 charges pertaining to the President which were alluded to by that newspaper. Does this review also affect the President? Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, I do not usually read the Mail & Guardian. [Laughter.] So, I would not know what you are referring to. [Applause.]
Particulars regarding plans to assist asylum seekers 1. Ms H N Makhuba (IFP) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:
(1) How (a) does her department plan to assist asylum seekers in Cape Town, as mandated by the court, since the Maitland offices have been shut down and (b) soon will the offices in Cape Town be operational again;
(2) whether her department has any plans in place in respect of (a) travelling and (b) accommodation costs incurred by asylum seekers who have to visit reception centres in Pretoria, Durban and Musina; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) (a) at which border entry posts will reception centres be set up, (b) why were those particular posts chosen and (c) by what date will these centres be opened? NO188E
Madam Deputy Speaker, the reply to the question is as follows. All asylum seekers can approach refugee reception offices for assistance. As far as I am aware, there is no court decision that requires the Department of Home Affairs to assist asylum seekers in Cape Town. The court decision I am aware of was in regard to the closure of the Maitland office. As the hon member will be aware, we have appealed this decision and we are awaiting the decision of the court. So, since it is a sub judice matter, I do not know to what degree I am compelled to go further into the matter.
With respect to the second part of the question, the Department of Home Affairs is not obliged to assist asylum seekers and refugees with their travelling and accommodation costs. In terms of the Refugees Act of 1998, which the hon Ambrosini will remember very well, the onus is on asylum seekers to report at a designated refugee reception office within 14 days of entering South Africa to apply for asylum.
With respect to subsection (3) of the question, we are currently developing a plan for establishing appropriately located refugee reception offices. Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the hon Minister for her response. I would like to find out from the Minister whether it is not possible for the office in Cape Town to be relocated to another area that is more suitable for such business.
To expect permit seekers to travel from Cape Town to Pretoria, Durban or Musina is a financial burden on them. This is apart from the problem of having the process of going to and fro, to the office and back. We know that this occurs because most of the time these documents, these permits, are not issued on the same day. Maybe the person does not have one of the documents - it is missing - and they must go back to fetch that document and return again to the office. It is just a request, hon Minister. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]
Madam Deputy Speaker ...
... ohloniphekileyo uMakhuba angandincedisa ngokundixelela ukuba lo mntu odlule zonke iidolophu zaseMzantsi Afrika, ufike njani apha eKapa? Umntu ofuna ukuba simncede afihle intloko, apho afikela khona uza kuxela ukuba ndifuna ukufihla intloko, ndibalekile ndincedeni. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[... can the hon Makhuba assist me by telling me how this person that she is referring to, who passed all the towns of South Africa, got to Cape Town? A person who wants us to help provide him with asylum declares when he reaches his destination that, "Please help me, I am a refugee; I am looking for asylum".]
That is the process we want to develop ...
... yokuba xa umntu efika simncede angazifumani selehambe indlela ende ade afike eKapa singazi nokuba ungene kowuphi umda. Ngoko ke sithi apho abantu bangena khona, masibeke i-ofisi ukuze sikwazi ukunceda wonke umntu kuloo mda angene kuwo. Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[... that when a person arrives here we help him, so that he does not find himself having travelled a long distance to get to Cape Town without us knowing which port of entry he used to enter South Africa. Therefore we say, let us have offices at the ports of entry so that we can be able to help everyone at the port of entry through which they get into South Africa. I thank you.]
Deputy Speaker, I am interested in the Minister's response, because that is not what the committee was told by the officials. We were led to believe that all refugee reception centres would be based in northern land ports, in the north of the country and nowhere else.
This does not make sense because, if a refugee lands in a plane, or comes to a sea port, what then? So, it is interesting that the Minister is talking about appropriately located refugee reception centres.
Perhaps she can tell us a little bit more about that. When would this final list be drawn up, and would she be taking into account the fact that these appropriate places would, in fact, be all over the country? Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, I thank the hon member for the question. As I have indicated, when we develop plans and policy, it will be on the basis of an appropriate evaluation of practice and experience.
Should it be that as we work on the plan we find that in a particular part of the country we are dealing with a large number of applications for asylum, we should ensure that close to that border, or at it, we have a facility that can process those who present themselves as seeking asylum. It must be at that point; it cannot be anywhere else.
I am a former exile. Our parents did not get to the Lesotho border, ask for a tourist visa, get into a distant part of Lesotho - the top of a mountain! - and then remember, hey, they were supposed to have remembered they were asylum seekers! But that is what is happening here, and we cannot have that going on!
Therefore, we must develop appropriately located offices and have services to deal with people in the humane and dignified way that the former Minister, Prince Buthelezi, wanted when he approved the legislation as the first Minister of Home Affairs of a democratic South Africa. So, we will want to retain that dignity, but we do not want to have practices that are different from every other country in the world, where you can just be all over the country and change your status at will. We are not going to allow that to continue. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, perhaps the Minister has answered the question to some extent already. Our portfolio committee visited the Maitland office at the time and we found it to be really lacking in various ways. It was inappropriately located, overcrowded and understaffed. These are basically the problems in some of these offices. Can the Minister give us the assurance that in the plan she is talking about they will also make sure that these kinds of problems are sorted out within a reasonable period of time? Thank you.
The answer is yes. [Laughter.]
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Hon Minister, we know that South Africa is legally required to abstain from deporting legitimate asylum seekers and refugees to countries where there is a reasonable possibility that they may face torture or death. This is an obligation that is enshrined in both domestic and international law.
Yet allegations continue to surface, with reports of incidents of legitimate asylum seekers and refugees being deported and put at risk of torture and possible death, and reports of the continued deportation of persons whose release has already been ordered by the court.
Hon Minister, how does your department plan to increase the opportunities for asylum seekers and refugees to have their status verified if they arrive in Lindela?
Deputy Speaker, I wish that when there are specific cases that hon members come across, they would do as hon De Freitas does, and refer the case to me so that I can assist where we may have breached our procedures. So, if there are such cases that you and the hon Makhuba are aware of, hon member Dudley, I would be very keen to assist in that regard.
In processing illegal persons, foreign nationals that are at Lindela, we of course rely to a great degree on assistance from international nongovernmental organisations, such as the United Nations High Commission for Refugees, as well as on embassies and high commissions of countries from which these nationals come. Should we be assisted expeditiously, we are able to process the matter very, very quickly. But where we do not get assistance, either in confirming that this is a national of a particular country, or in providing them with appropriate documentation so that they may travel, the stay at Lindela is made longer and begins to fall foul of the Act.
What we have done is to put in place a process of monitoring the length of stay at Lindela, so that on a fortnightly basis I am aware of exactly what is happening. Should intervention be required, we are then able to act.
We really do rely on the collaboration which we get from many embassies. Some do pose challenges and are not always as helpful as they should be, but I am sure they also believe they are facing a very difficult problem.
I may say that we do not deport where we are very sure that we have evidence that there is a situation of civil conflict or there is threat or harm to the person that we have come across. In such cases we do try to assist to legalise their stay in our country.
Position regarding disciplinary steps taken in connection with sick note
11. Mr P J Groenewald (FF Plus) asked the Minister of Police:
Whether any disciplinary steps have been taken against a certain member (name and details furnished) after the said person obtained a sick note from a family member for being absent from work; if not, why not; if so, what steps? NO278E
Deputy Speaker, thank you. The response to the question is, yes, an investigation into this allegation is under way. The outcome of the investigation will determine if any formal disciplinary steps need to be taken against the said officer, Brigadier Buthelezi. Thank you.
Dankie, agbare Adjunkspeaker. [Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.]
I want to say to the hon Minister that it is good if there is an investigation. However, this specific member was expelled and she could not continue with her work, but now she is back in her position even though there is an investigation pending! I think that is unacceptable.
The Minister of Police is not here now and I accept that you, Minister, are only in an acting capacity. I hope the Minister is having a good honeymoon, as it seems as if it has been quite a long time now!
What I want to say is that it is totally unacceptable that a senior officer in the Police Service should be reinstated in her position while an investigation is going on. She should be expelled and wait for the investigation to be completed, and then steps can be taken.
Deputy Speaker, the investigation is under way. Once that investigation is completed, a decision will be taken. We have also noted what the member has said.
I would like to say that Minister Mthethwa is on official leave. The Deputy Minister is on an official visit to New York, representing this country at the United Nations in regard to a serious topic. In fact, some of the questions today relate to that. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Let us try again, shall we? Deputy Speaker, again in the absence of both the Minister of Police and his Deputy, I fear the Minister of State Security will probably not be able to answer the question, but let us try.
The Portfolio Committee on Police is constantly unearthing episodes of "blue flu" all over the country, where SAPS members take off four days, and then they are back on duty. They take off sick leave for four days and then have another four days' leave. The sick leave letters are given by people they claim to be doctors. Now it is a huge issue. It is endemic abuse of sick leave by SAPS members.
I want to know if the Minister has instituted a national investigation into this abuse - it is not about one person; it is about the national abuse of sick leave. If so, I would like to know the outcome of the investigation. If he has not, I would like him to explain to this House why he has not, because I believe that is his job. [Time expired.]
Yes, a seven-year analysis of this abuse of sick leave has been done and the preliminary results show that there is a decreasing trend. Maybe we will be able to ask an official to come and brief the portfolio committee thoroughly.
On the issue of the fraudulent medical certificates, yes, it is of concern. A step that the department normally takes is to lay criminal charges against the doctor when we can prove that there has been fraud. The other step that we normally have to take is to report the offending doctor or person to the medical council so that they can take appropriate action. So, the abuse is a concern, but it is decreasing. Thank you.
Thank you, Deputy Speaker and Minister. Minister, I would like to come back to the issue of discipline. However, I'm going to ask a general question, because what is happening, apart from this one incident, is that there are generally a lot of cases of ill-discipline amongst the police.
My question to you is this: Is this a symptom of a poor working environment? The reason I'm asking this question is because, at the police stations that we have visited, we have sometimes asked ourselves how the police were going to work under those circumstances. There is a poor working environment and a lack of job satisfaction. There is also a lack of properly qualified and experienced management.
So, I'm asking you whether you don't think that, besides dealing with that one case, there should be a proper way of making sure that, firstly, the work environment is improved. This is because, if you deal with one case today, you are going to deal with another tomorrow. Secondly, the job satisfaction, and I'm talking about that in the Police Service ... [Time expired.]
Deputy Speaker, thank you. Thank you, hon member and former Deputy Minister of Police! Yes, discipline is very important. We expect all members of the SAPS to subscribe to the highest ethical standards and level of discipline. That is the norm.
Yes, in certain instances the issue of management on the ground is being attended to. We are trying to train those who are managing the police stations at the local level so that they take these issues of management seriously, and so that we can deal with such issues as you have raised.
On the issue of the working conditions of the police, we all know and the hon member knows, as other colleagues have said this, that we are trying, within the limited resources we have, to address the conditions of the men and women in blue. I thank you very much.
Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Unlike some of my colleagues on the Portfolio Committee on Police, I would like to acknowledge the fact that the majority of South African police officers are actually people that go beyond the call of duty and work hours that none of us would like work to ourselves.
But it is also true, Minister, that during last year's annual report hearings incapacity leave, specifically at the senior management level, was a great concern to the committee. We have really lost hundreds of days at the senior management level as a result of that. Can the Minister please indicate to us what steps, if any, have been taken to improve management and stop the abuse of incapacity leave?
Thank you very much, hon member. I would like to state again that many police officers are honest people and they are doing their jobs diligently.
The measures which have been taken by the department are the following. Firstly, to prevent this abuse, where a person or an officer has exceeded the allocated leave days, the salary or payments are stopped immediately. So, they won't be paid if they are absent and have exceeded the days which they are allowed. Secondly, because of the problems which were identified around the health risk manager, the department has replaced the health risk manager so that we can deal with those problems which have been identified by the committee.
In addition, specific to what the member has asked about incapacity leave, the department is developing a comprehensive incapacity code so that we can deal with this matter comprehensively. I thank you very much.
Details of positive results flowing from the Year of the Detective
8. Ms M A Molebatsi (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
Did he find that there were any positive results after he declared 2012- 13 as the Year of the Detective; if so, what are the relevant details?