Hon, members I now want to return to the Fifth Order. I indicated at the time that as soon as I ascertained that we had a quorum present in the House, we would take the Fifth Order. I now repeat the question. Close the doors, please. The question before the House is that the Labour Relations Amendment Bill be read a second time.
Hon Chairperson, we call for a division, please.
That is exactly what I am doing. All members are reminded to be in their seats. They may only vote from their allocated seat.
Point of order, Chair! The doors are not closed.
Can the service officers please ensure that the doors are closed.
Chairperson, you have to ring the bells for at least a minute before a division can be called.
Hon member, will you take your seat, please. Hon members who are present in the House, when I dealt with this matter, I indicated that as we dealt with the other Orders, I would ascertain when a quorum was present and I would put the question. And that is exactly what I am doing. I am putting the question.
Hon Chairperson, with all due respect, I rise on a point of order. The fact of the matter is that we could not proceed with the voting process because there was no quorum in the House. There was no process, because there was no quorum. So, if you want to put this before the House, you have to go through the process in order to get the House to vote while following the correct procedure. If you rule that we cannot do that, I suggest that it will not be in terms of the Rules. It will be unconstitutional. I was not in the House when the previous provisions were taken. The fact of the matter is that there was no process, because there was no quorum. I suggest, you have to do the whole process again. We have to ring the bells, because it will be for the first time in the history of Parliament, with all due respect ... [Interjections.] It is unacceptable.
There are two members of the DA who wanted to put points of order.
Chairperson, yes, I just wanted to place on record that it is unprocedural if the bells are not rung.
Order, hon members. Hon members, as you will recall, at the time when we dealt with this matter, I indicated that as soon as I, as the Chairperson of this session, was of the opinion that there was a quorum available, then I would put the question. However, the members have now raised the issue and challenged whether there is indeed a quorum in the House. I will thus, before I proceed with the question, ask all members in the House to indicate their presence by recording their presence. This can be done by ... [Interjections.] You asked I there was a quorum, so I am establishing that. Hon members should indicate their presence by recording their presence on the panel that is in front of them on the voting system. That will then determine if there is a quorum, which is consistent with my previous ruling. [Interjections.] Can we activate the voting system, please.
Chairperson, I refer you to Rule 85, which says:
If the required number of members support the demand for a division, the division bells shall be rung and the doors shall be locked as soon after the lapse of three minutes as the presiding officer may direct.
So, you have to ring the bells.
Hon members, that was done. We have gone through that process. All that I am requesting from you now is just to indicate your presence or not in the House by pushing a button in front of you. That's all. The voting system has been activated. Will members please record their presence in the House.
Hon Chair! Hon Chair, on a point of order ... [Interjections.]
I will take your point of order just now, hon Chief Whip. I want to complete this process. Have all members recorded their presence?
Chairperson, may I address you? It has come to my attention that certain members on this side of the House have refused to press the button and record their presence in the House, according to your request. And so, the results that you will get from the Table will not be an accurate reflection of whether or not there is a quorum in the House.
It is noted, Deputy Minister.
In fact, I was up before the previous speaker, and you said you would recognise me after you had done your business. Please, let's do this at a reasonable speed and in order. I put it to you that the procedure that you would follow by ordering the doors to be closed without the bells being rung and now demanding that we press buttons to determine if there is a quorum, is totally unprocedural and I urge you not to continue in this way.
Hon members, it is at the discretion of the Chairperson of any session, and you can consult the Rules regarding when an issue is raised about a quorum. I went back to a question, an order on the Order Paper. I then asked that a quorum be established. There is nothing unprocedural about asking that, hon member. If, once again, you have a problem with the ruling that I made, then you are at liberty to take it up with the Rules Committee, and we will address the matter there.
Hon members, the result that I have in front of me indicates that we do not have a quorum in the House, even if I take into account what the hon Deputy Minister Chohan said. In fact, we are short by 34 members. In the light of that, I will thus not continue with Order No 5 in terms of the question that was put to the House.