Deputy Speaker, Deputy President and hon members, it is a great pleasure to me to commend to the House the Co- operatives Amendment Bill, which is an amalgamation of two amendment Bills that were introduced earlier this year. The Bill before the House broadly aims to achieve three main objectives.
Firstly, it aims to enhance governance and accountability within co- operatives, while simultaneously introducing a differentiated system of compliance that reduces the regulatory burden, particularly on small co- operatives. Secondly, the Bill introduces provisions to establish new structures, and in particular a national apex co-operative body in South Africa. Thirdly, the Bill will establish co-operative-specific support institutions so that government can dedicate support to co-operatives, born of the realisation that the defining principle of co-operatives is that they are collective forms of enterprise and we should not treat them as we have done up to now, simply as a subset of small business.
The Bill significantly embraces seven internationally endorsed principles for the operation of co-operatives. These are the principles of voluntary and open membership, of democratic member control, of member economic participation, of autonomy and independence, of education, training and information, of co-operation among co-operatives, and of concern for community. These principles are entrenched in the Bill.
The Bill seeks to strengthen governance and accountability within co- operatives through making it mandatory for co-operatives to submit annual financial reports, social and management decision reports, and so on, to the registrar. This refinement will enhance accountability and transparency by the broad management of co-operatives towards the members of co- operatives. It will also strengthen decision-making within co-operatives on a democratic basis, and thereby hopefully reduce conflicts within co- operatives and improve their sustainability.
The Bill, however, provides for a differentiated categorisation of co- operatives into survivalist and very small primary co-operatives, small to medium co-operatives, and then larger co-operatives. It differentiates the reporting and regulatory requirements according to the size of the co- operatives. The Bill also significantly seeks to address an abuse which has been noted, where pseudo co-operatives are established as a means of evading labour law. The Bill stipulates that worker co-operatives must comply with labour legislation. However, it does allow for an exemption to be made through regulation on specified conditions.
The second point I made was that the Bill will establish, in addition to primary, secondary and tertiary co-operatives, another structure, which will be known as the National Apex Co-operative for South Africa. The South African National Apex Co-operative will unite co-operatives and provide advocacy on behalf of co-operatives as a united national co-operative movement.
The National Apex Co-Operative will be established when a minimum of three national sectoral tertiary co-operatives and five multisectoral co- operatives representing co-operatives at provincial, district and local level come together and apply for recognition as an apex co-operative. This apex body will represent South African co-operatives at both national and international levels - at the international level in organisations such as the International Co-operative Alliance and various regional and continental bodies.
Deputy Speaker, with respect to the Co-operatives Development Agency and the Co-operatives Tribunal, which are the new co-operatives-specific institutions, these have been established because, as I said earlier, the problem we have identified is that we have treated co-operatives and co- operative development as a subset of small business development, whereas the essence of a co-operative is that it is a collective form of enterprise. It may be large or it may be small, but it has particular and unique principles.
The Bill is now providing for the establishment of a Co-operatives Development Agency. This will operate as a one-stop shop. In other words, it will provide both financial and nonfinancial support for co-operatives. It will include business support services and will assist with access to information. It will facilitate market access, both locally and internationally. It will also provide such services as education, training, extension services and market intelligence.
Whilst this agency is co-operative-specific, we do not intend it to be created as a vast new bureaucracy. In practice, in fact, to begin with at least, it will use the network of the Small Enterprise Development Agency around the country, whilst providing a co-operative-specific service.
There will also be the establishment of a Co-operatives Tribunal. This will ensure compliance with legislative requirements. It will assist in matters like judicial management, and the winding up and deregistration of co- operatives.
Very importantly, it will also deal with conflict resolution matters. Quite often co-operatives are bedevilled by disputes between the co-operators. The tribunal will be able to adjudicate on matters of this sort and will hopefully be able to resolve a number of conflicts which have bedevilled the roll-out of co-operatives.
There will also, very significantly, be the creation of an Interdepartmental and Municipal Co-Ordinating Structure, so that what we can do is co-ordinate the efforts of the different spheres of government, and the different agencies involved in the different spheres of government, to support co-operatives.
Deputy Speaker, this is the gist of the Bill. If we look at the economic rationale behind this legislation, we see that at the moment in South Africa we have 58 642 registered co-operatives. Over the period between 2006 and 2011 we rolled out about R150 million worth of support for co- operatives. These co-operatives, combined, contribute about 2% to the GDP of South Africa.
I think the report resulting from the visit to Kenya indicates that many other countries, including other countries on this continent, are able to sustain and support much more significant co-operative sectors than we have in South Africa. There are many parts of our economy which are very susceptible to co-operative development.
The example which comes out of Kenya, among other places, is agroprocessing, where agricultural producers come together because they can more effectively, by pooling resources and skills, add value to their agricultural products through agroprocessing ventures through a co- operative structure, than they can on their own.
There are also examples, even in our own history, where many white farmers came together and formed winemaking co-operatives which became very significant enterprises in their own right. Many other examples of co- operatives in other manufacturing sectors could also be cited.
When we go and see exhibitions of what co-operators are producing in this country, it is an eye opener if you have never been there and seen this before. You see how many cases of small groups of people there are who come together and manage to produce high quality goods and products around the country, and it shows us what can be achieved in this regard.
We believe that this Bill will be a strong statement that we as a department are intending to up our game in regard to support for co- operatives in this country, and that we also see much more significant potential for co-operative roll-out as we move ahead.
We have already, of course, approached Treasury to seek a budget for this, and we trust that when the Budget is tabled in Parliament next year, we will see a significant support programme for co-operative development.
I have no hesitation whatsoever in commending this Bill, which I believe has commanded broad support within the portfolio committee. I want to thank the portfolio committee for the work that they have done. I want to thank the Nedlac constituencies for the important work which they did in developing the framework, and we look forward to a strengthened co- operative programme in this country. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members, colleagues and compatriots, today, in this International Year of Co-operatives, we debate and consider the Co-operatives Amendment Bill [B 17B-2012]. This is one of the most important pieces of legislation this House has seen.
Yes, co-operatives can drive sustainable job creation where it is most needed; yes, co-operatives can expand the local economy; and yes, believe it or not, and I am sorry the Minister of Finance is not here, co- operatives can contribute significantly to the gross domestic product.
This democratic developmental institution harnesses the commitment and energies of its members for economic self-development. Cooperatives in both developed and developing countries have been used to overcome the twin scourges of unemployment and poverty. They target the youth, women and, particularly, the rural areas.
Hence, the purpose of this legislation is to support and promote the development and effective functioning of co-operatives as a unique business form. It is a business form that is determined to reduce poverty. It is determined to create jobs. It is also determined to be self-sufficient and work within the community.
The Bill therefore aims to enhance the developmental character of cooperative legislation by reducing the regulatory burden for co- operatives. At the same time, though, it enhances compliance, co- ordination, administration and sustainability of the co-operatives.
The committee questioned the department at length in this area and was satisfied that they were going to establish, if they had not done so already, the support structures that would not develop dependency but rather independence.
The Bill introduces additional regulations for the co-operative sector in order to encourage growth. As you know, they've had a poor track record, in the main because of two structures that the hon Mabasa, my compatriot, will be unpacking for us. They are the tribunal and the developmental agency.
One of the main characteristics of the new co-operatives and the Co- operatives Amendment Bill are the seven socioeconomic founding principles. These principles are there to establish a robust legislative architecture. They are not in a preamble. They are not in the memorandum alone. They are an intrinsic part of this Bill. So, you can't get away from them.
The leadership role of the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, is evident in the decision to facilitate effective co-ordination and supervision, as well as reporting, by respective co-operatives to bring about good governance. I'll just list these seven principles, which are also available in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, ATC, for members to read and study.
The first one is voluntary and open membership. This is the sort of membership you can't buy your way into. Your pocket book or your credit card won't get you in here. There is democratic member control here. There's no domination by anyone because they have a bigger cheque book than you have.
Furthermore, elected representatives, we know, must be accountable and transparent.
We also all know about the issue of proxies - a proxy for this, a proxy for that. You don't even know who the new member is - let's hope that's not happening here in Parliament! [Laughter.] This Bill discourages all of that. It provides that if you want a proxy, you shouldn't pick up your cellphone to arrange it, but put it in writing. Not only should you put it in writing, but you should specify the decision you want that proxy to take. We all know what proxies do when they are in a booth - they do what they like! [Laughter.]
There's also member economic participation. As I've said, they are self- help institutions and not dependency institutions. There is a whole list of them, including clauses, but there are also autonomy and independence. There are many prohibitions with respect to what one would in the Companies Act call a King contract or governance, etc. In the co-operatives what we do ensure in the legislation is that you cannot accept any commission or remuneration because you learn of certain things in your position as a director or member.
Another vulnerable area, and the reason why some of the co-operatives have failed in the past, is the lack of education, training and information.
Again, there is the need to co-operate among co-operatives. As I said earlier, co-operatives are there to develop the individual, to develop the potential, to develop the local economy through concern for the community and, of course, to develop the GDP.
The principle behind the co-operative movement is to pool the financial and other resources of members. There's no such thing as sleeping partners. You get in there with your hands and you work! So, none of this sleeping! This is facilitated by focusing on the strengthening of the co-operative movement, corporate governance and access to markets, and on marketing efficiency.
The co-operatives are democratic. Do you remember that when we learnt about democracy, it was said they were run by the members for the members? That's the real sign of democracy. It's one of the few business institutions, if any, where this is seen. I know that not even the monasteries run in this democratic fashion ... [Laughter.] ... but the co-operatives do! [Interjections.] Yes, that's right.
With respect to intergovernmental relations I must agree with the Minister. For the first time we get the concretising of co-operative governance.
Concretise?
Yes, it's been concretised, hon Hill-Lewis. [Applause.] That's right. Be sure about that!
People are working together. It's no longer "tiers". I know it says "spheres" in the Constitution, but people edited that for themselves. It is the spheres, the circles working together - no up-and-down situation!
It introduces many new structures in this regard, like the Interprovincial Co-ordination Committee on Co-operatives and, of course, the Provincial Interdepartmental and Municipal Co-ordinating Structure. This is no longer a Cinderella sphere! [Interjections.] This is an important sphere.
Now, with this there are many issues that have to be ensured, but one of the things I thought we should just mention - and I am so conscious of my time - ... [Laughter.] ... is what else the Bill does. The Bill actually also endeavours to grow all forms and types of co-operatives and the co- operative movement, as well as to increase their contribution to the country's GDP, as I have said.
We want to promote co-operatives as a vehicle that can assist in creating decent employment - decent! - and reducing poverty through income- generating activities.
We want to raise the profile of co-operatives! [Interjections.] They are not spaza shops! [Interjections.] [Applause.] I heard someone ask me whether they are spaza shops. They are not spaza shops! All right? They are co-operatives! And among co-operatives, as the Minister said, you get small co-operatives, you get medium-sized ones and you get gigantic ones! [Interjections.] It's good to know I've got my crowd with me! [Laughter.] [Interjections.] [Applause.] We want to raise their profile. They must be dynamic business entities. [Interjections.]
We also want to aggressively promote co-operatives. It is on this point that we asked ourselves: Where can we get an effective picture of co- operatives working in Africa? So the committee went to Kenya. Believe you me, not only did they learn more about co-operatives, but within their multiparty team they developed co-operative relations! [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Now, the role of the state should be to provide, as it does, an enabling environment. That is the role of our developmental state! [Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
One thing we heard about is the prevalence of bogus co- operatives, and I hope you say, "Hear, hear!" now! [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Oh yes, it's probably numerous people emanating from my left and their ideological thrust ... [Interjections.] ... that is, on the left there ... [Laughter.] ... who actually put their capitalistic instincts first and squeeze through every piece of legislation they can find! Well, I'm telling you now that this legislation will bury bogus co- operatives! [Interjections.] [Applause.] I want to thank the department, Jeffrey Ndumo and the director-general, Lionel October, and all of the members in that department who have worked here. Thank you very much. The ANC supports this legislation! [Time expired.] [Applause.]
I call the hon Hill-Lewis - you will have to follow great vibrancy!
Deputy Speaker, that was a tough act to follow. Thank you so much, chairperson, for concretising the issues so clearly for us!
The DA supports this Bill, but not without reservations. Minister Gordhan and Deputy Minister Nene must literally lie awake at night, tossing and turning at the thought of all the new government agencies and organisations that this Parliament so frequently boasts of.
Hon members, listen carefully. The Bill we are debating today provides for the establishment of no less than a Co-Operatives Tribunal, a Co-Operatives Development Agency, a National Apex Co-operative for South Africa, an S A National Co-Operatives Council, nine provincial branches of the Co- Operatives Development Agency, a provincial interdepartmental liaison committee and provincial to national interdepartmental liaison committees. Phew! [Interjections.] All of these things require chairpersons, offices, directors, commissioners and other equally highly paid people. They will all require flights, accommodation, trips and training, and all this before they deliver a service!
Above all, this requires a huge pot of money. If every department in government subscribed to the belief that every problem could be solved by a new government agency, we understand that it simply wouldn't be sustainable. However, the department has assured us in committee that this is all affordable and manageable. We will take them at their word but, given Trade and Industry's other massive responsibilities and the important work they do in connection with our economy, I certainly hope that they are right! Government budgets are in any one year a zero-sum game. In order to move money to a new programme, money must be taken from another, and so I certainly hope they can manage all of these new commitments.
The number of new government agencies created to deal with co-operatives was our first significant concern with this Bill and something we discussed often in committee. This is especially so when some of these agencies seem to duplicate functions.
This leads neatly to our second concern. The establishment of the single National Apex Co-operative for South Africa was not originally in the Bill. It was an amendment proposed by ANC members. Despite our constant enquiries, neither the department nor the ANC members who proposed the amendment could quite clarify what the point of the apex co-operative was, beyond advising on policy and playing an advocacy role.
However, the Bill also provides for the establishment of a national council to advise the Minister on policy and play an advocacy role! It would seem that the roles overlap entirely. Moreover, while the job of the council is explained in detail in the Bill, the role of the apex co-operative is not. The irony is that, while it was the intention of the ANC members on the committee to ensure that there was only one apex co-operative advocating on behalf of co-operatives at the national level, there will now be two!
When we visited Mpumalanga in the public participation process, we met one of three members of the Emakhazeni co-operative which farms with vegetables. Recently, they secured a small contract with the local Fruit and Veg City branch, which offered to buy as much produce as they could supply. This co-operative, established just to meet the basic needs of its members, now brings in an annual income of R50 000 for each of its members. This is the model we should seek to replicate, as these ladies are hardworking and industrious. However, we must also heed their caution that government often makes it too difficult for them to succeed because of complex rules and reporting requirements. Far from offering them a hand up to success, government all too often stands in the way of small entrepreneurs like these. Another hot debate in the committee was on the imposition of labour legislation on worker co-operatives. The Bill, as it came to the committee, contained a ham-handed provision which provided no scope for exemption or leniency in cases where it would be financially impossible for small co- operatives to comply. Apparently, this provision was inserted at the personal insistence of Minister Patel, who I see has left the House, in yet another display of his profound misunderstanding of what it takes to create and keep jobs in the real world.
With those reservations there was a lot of very healthy debate and there are a lot of positives that bring clarity and proper regulation to the way in which co-operatives are governed.
I wish to thank the Chief Director, Jeffrey Ndumo; Elize Koekemoer; the Registrar of Co-operatives; Rector Rapoo; Adv Idensohn, whom I see in the gallery; and Dr Waema for their excellent and very hard work in the committee. A special word of thanks goes to the hon Xitlhangoma Mabasa for his leadership and passion in processing the Bill. Despite those reservations, the DA supports the Bill. Thank you.
Order! I wish to inform hon members that this is the hon C-C Huang's maiden speech. [Applause.] The protocol governing both him and hon members applies today. Hon Huang.
Thank you. Deputy Speaker and hon members in the National Assembly of South Africa, today is historic for me, Chun-Chiao Huang, and my family. I stand here today as a witness to the change after liberation, and the sociopolitical growth in a climate of political renewal in our country, South Africa.
I must praise the committee, and especially the subcommittee, where I too have had the privilege of working on this Bill, not only for their hard work, time and dedication, but also for the spirit in which the various parties worked together. This was the spirit of ubuntu, working together to attain growth and sustainable economic development, with one objective in mind, to better the quality of life for all. We are certain that it is in this spirit that the work will be continued through to the co-operatives and the people they help.
As a free and proud South African Taiwanese, I testify to the achievements of government in creating opportunities through civil and state participation. Sustainability is secured by creating incentives and support for co-operatives, especially in rural areas.
Yes, disparities due to past inhumane practices created extremely large income gaps between the poor and the rich. However, the current Co- operatives Amendment Bill is an example of what will redress these injustices of the past, ensuring sustainability for co-operatives, which in turn will contribute to the economy. We as representatives today are honoured to be among the collective few who can ensure that economic change becomes a reality and a sustainable practice to empower our nation. I am proud to serve and add my voice in order to assist in the sustainable development of economic programmes to address the apex priorities.
As co-operatives are creating opportunities for the people, allowing them as entrepreneurs to be self-empowering, I celebrate our pro-participative processes to achieve economic objectives and economic growth through participation.
One of the outstanding tools to free a nation was embodied in the Co- operatives Bill of 2005, which came into operation on 2 May 2007, introducing a new framework for the management of co-operatives in South Africa. I am proud today to be part of the momentum set, and its development now in its 2012 amendment stage. It not only serves just to empower the country's people, but also uses the economic systems of and within South Africa as a unique creation of a new philosophy and approach to change.
As a collective we all contributed to the 2012 amendments to the Co- operatives Amendment Bill, to ensure that civil society optimised its potential through sustainable economic projects. The Co-operatives Amendment Bill takes this notion of sustainability through empowerment to a higher level of commitment, collective bargaining and collective initiative through incentives which this Bill initiates, encourages and makes possible.
The housing, workers', financial and especially the agricultural co- operatives prove that intent can benefit a nation. May we grow from strength to strength, and may we always teach a nation to become self- supportive. Cope supports this Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, we do support the Bill with some reservations. I was not very involved in the processing of this Bill, but I followed it very attentively. I do know that in Bills of this nature the ANC usually does a good job, and the DA has a very effective capacity of exerting the full measure of pressure that can be exerted to correct the endemic mistakes and vices of the ANC. [Interjections.]
We have always espoused the notion of co-operatives. Those of you - and there are very few that I see - who were at the World Trade Centre will remember that in our constitutional proposals, when were trying to negotiate an economic Constitution for the country, we wanted the principle of co-operativism to be entrenched in the Constitution.
It is one of the socialist principles which are good principles. Every now and then even the socialists and the communists are right, as even a dead clock is right twice a day. The principle of co-operativism is that of placing in the hands of those who use them the means of production, through the assistance of the state. We do endorse the notion of a second-tier co-operative. When the Co- operatives Act was passed for the first time, we made the point to the Minister of the time that what was being done was not sufficient; it was too little, and too much at the local level, to really enable the shifting of the ownership of the means of production from those who usually have them to those who are actually using them and manufacturing through them.
We endorse the fact that we have moved beyond the agricultural field to having a framework which could apply across the manufacturing spectrum of activities. It took a very long time for our suggestions, which were made to the previous Minister, to be registered and we are pleased in this respect, that they have been registered.
We are concerned about the structure. The hon Hill-Lewis spoke very eloquently about it. What he did not say was that perhaps what would have made sense was to have a Minister of Co-operatives, which I personally would have preferred to all the intermediary structures that have been put in place. In other countries Ministers of Co-operatives have been very effective, and I would, for one, vote for our Minister of Trade and Industry as a candidate for the job. He has, throughout his career as a Minister, shown a much greater inclination to work on the welfare side of trade and industry than on the actual production side.
If I were to judge by the way he is dressed in Parliament today, with his shirt outside of his trousers, I think that imagewise he fits better into the field of co-operativism than into that of trade and industry, where he should project an image which gives confidence to the international community that this is a serious place where we make serious money and we can do serious business!
What type of problems might arise with the Co-operatives Amendment Bill will depend on what type of finances and administrative capacity are put behind it. At times we adopt laws and just by doing that we can make a difference. Not on this occasion. We have created a framework that needs to be fleshed out with actual commitment and administrative capacity.
I hope that that is not going to be taken away from the present structures of the Department of Trade and Industry, which is a department that is working well. It has already shifted its attention far too much away from the need to create a South Africa Inc, a corporate structure for the country which will enable us to make money, develop social programmes and assist in their implementation.
The issue of capacitating this Bill is one that I think has not been sufficiently addressed, and we sincerely hope that it will be addressed, because otherwise we will for sure incur the huge costs that this Bill involves and not necessarily the huge profits that it could bring about for the whole of the country. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Muchaviseki Xandla xa Xipikira, swirho swa Huvo, Holobye Davies, Swandla swa Vaholobye na Vaholobye hinkwavo lava va nga kona na mufambisikulu, DG, wa hina, ndzi sungula hi ku khensa lava ndzi nga tirha na vona ntirho lowu. Ndzi khensa swinene mutshamaxitulu wa hina, Manana Joan Fubbs. Ndzi khensa na Dokodela Nyatichi ... (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)
[Mr X MABASA: Hon Deputy Speaker, members of the House, Minister Davis, Deputy Ministers and all Ministers present, and our director-general, DG, I start off by thanking all those with whom I worked in this regard. I thank our chairperson, Mrs Joan Fubbs, very much. I also thank Dr Nyatichi ...]
... a very wonderful person from Kenya. We found it a struggle to come back because they wanted us to stay there forever. Deputy President, it was so wonderful in Kenya. It is so good when we see an African country doing well, working to the best of its abilities. [Applause.]
When it comes to co-operatives, you don't have to go far to see them - if you go to Kenya, you get the best. If you go to the UK, you will also get the best. [Interjections.] If you come to South Africa, we will do it together - provided you think more like the ANC! [Laughter.] [Applause.]
There are advocates that worked so hard on this Bill - Adv Van der Merwe, Adv Strydom, Adv Smalle and Adv Idensohn. There were also the officials who did so - Mr Rapoo, Mr Ndumo, Mr Zikode and Ms Koekemoer. Thank you for the hard work done. I also thank members of the task team, Mr Hill-Lewis and Mr Selau. Mr Huang, congratulations on your maiden speech!
Mphemphe e ya lapi?a. Motho o kgonwa ke sa gagwe. [One must always ensure that he is self-sufficient.]
What we should move away from is finding our people standing in queues for grants day in and day out. The systems that we have to devise are systems that will make our people walk tall, systems that will enable people to earn a living. Co-operatives, which are only one of the many enterprise formations, are one of those tools.
When we talk about co-operatives in South Africa, we note that South Africa has its own traditions in regard to co-operatives. Among the white community we had the development of massive, powerful, agricultural co- operatives in wine, dairy products, meat and poultry. This caused South Africa to have some of the most developed co-operatives, but we must critique whether those were real co-operatives. They were not real, even though we can pick out some success stories among them.
Why I say that they were not real is because they did not comply with the principles that Comrade Fubbs articulated: the seven principles of co- operatives. A very obvious one is that they were formed on a racial basis. For black workers, meaning Indians, Coloureds and Africans, their only role was to work hard and be "skopped", "skopped" and "skopped" [kicked, kicked and kicked]. They could never be part of the ownership. That was the anomaly of the co-operatives of the then apartheid regime.
In regard to the co-operatives that we seek to build today, I want to mention some countries where co-operatives have succeeded. Those beautiful cars that we see, those coming from Germany, for example Mercedes-Benz and BMW - their parts are made by co-operatives. In Cuba co-operatives are very strong. In Switzerland, Botswana, Kenya, Canada, Italy, Spain and China it is co-operatives all the way!
When the world experienced the downturn of its economies, when it was suffering, just as it is still suffering now, in the aftermath of the downturn of the economies, co-operatives stood their ground. They did not succumb like most of the other forms of enterprise, which collapsed. They stood their ground. They have their own banks. In Kenya they have their own bank. What characterises all these countries that have successful co-operatives is that they take training and education very seriously. They have academies, universities and technikons, and government goes all out to support co- operatives. That is why they are successful in those countries. [Applause.]
Government plays a role in market opportunities. Isn't it better to do that than to give out grants?
I heard hon member Hill-Lewis complaining about the apex. In South Africa an apex is necessary. It is necessary because we come from that horrible past of apartheid, where people were divided according to their colour. If we don't have one apex, we shall merely be perpetuating the division of co- operatives along racial lines. An apex will unify all the co-operatives under one umbrella. That apex is the one that interacts with government and the world, and it empowers co-operatives in South Africa. [Interjections.]
When the Minister says that co-operatives are the way to go, you mustn't think of co-operatives as being those little things at the corner.
Ningacabanga ngabomama abadayisa obhanana namapetshisi,kodwa ... [You can think of the women who sell bananas and peaches, but ...]
... kambe hi fanele hi ehleketa hi mabindzu ya nhlanganelo lawa ya rimaka masimu lamakulu, ya fuwa tihomu, ya va na mavhengele ya tlhela ya va na tisupamakete. [... we have to think about co-operatives which till big fields, keep and breed cattle, and have shops as well as supermarkets.]
What would be wrong with the people of Gugulethu's forming a co-operative that builds up a super chain of shops that has an upward and a downward stream, so that the funds circulate within that community? We must note that when we speak of the big shopping malls that go into the townships, we still speak of Truworths going into the townships. Who owns Truworths? We still talk of Edgars going into the townships. Who owns them? With co- operatives we can have Diepkloof and Orlando combining in Soweto to form a big shopping mall, with each member having to contribute only R1 000, and this being well run by somebody that we trust. Then I can tell you that co- operatives will liberate people economically! So money must circulate where we live.
Let's look at the taxi industry. The chairperson of the taxi industry was here. Can you imagine what it would be like if the taxi industry, in an upward and downward manner, owned filling stations, garages to repair their vehicles, and a manufacturing basis? You can imagine that the taxi owners would then not just end in being caught up in owing huge amounts to the banks. And when I speak about banks, remember that co-operatives would have their own banks so that when they borrowed money, they would borrow it from their own bank. [Interjections.]
When we came back from Kenya, Mr Radebe, I was carrying some yoghurt that was produced in Kenya. I say this because sometimes we get the impression that co-operatives cannot do wonderful things!
As we move on, Comrade Deputy Speaker, I want to say that co-operatives are not going to succeed if we do not support them with colleges, universities and academies; if we do not support them through markets and infrastructure; and if we do not support them through providing links with other co-operatives throughout the world. Co-operatives say: "Nothing about us without us!" They have learnt that ...
... ge o tsamaya o kgopela, o tlo sokola go ya go ile. Dikhoporeiti di re, rena batho bao re bego re gatelet?we ... [... if you go around begging, you will suffer for the rest of your life. According to the co-operatives, those people who were oppressed ...]
... are now going to free ourselves economically and socially. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, I speak here today in favour of the Co- operatives Amendment Bill. I am of the view that the Bill has the potential to create a sound and robust governance environment within which the co- operative movement may flourish - if it is regulated as much as is necessary in an elegantly designed and appropriate set of institutions.
Deputy Speaker and hon members, the fact is that a large volume of economic transactions take place worldwide in the co-operative environment. There are production co-operatives, marketing co-operatives, buyers' co- operatives, savings co-operatives, and credit co-operatives, a whole range of architectural inventions that have an important place in our economy.
This piece of legislation will bring all co-operatives within the protective embrace of the rule of law. As Hernando de Soto pointed out, why should the benefits of the rule of law be kept to the few who then lord it over the vulnerable and marginalised who happen to inhabit the informal sector? The rule of law protects the exploited from exploitation, and the rule of law provides resources, incentives and government support that can make a huge difference between economic failure and success.
This legislation can also provide a vehicle by which credit can be provided to those who do not hold title to land in South Africa. As we know, we have a system of communal tenure in many parts of the country and those who have communal tenure do not have access to title to land that can be used or housing that can be used as collateral in order to get credit. Therefore, what is of the greatest importance is to recognise the potential of this piece of legislation to solve the problem of credit for those who do not have legal title to land.
I also want to say that communal tenure itself is, of course, a serious problem in certain parts of the country. What we require is individual tenure, but there is enormous room for co-operative buying, co-operative credit facilities, and co-operative grazing in the case of livestock farming. It is, therefore, a powerful vehicle for agricultural development. [Interjections.]
Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I would like you to rule whether it is in order for the hon Lekota to be speaking on his cellphone in the House.
Are you speaking on your cellphone?
No. I think the hon member is mistaken. Thank you. [Laughter.]
Okay, thank you. Continue hon member.
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Before I was so rudely interrupted, I wished to say that I was therefore astounded that the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries was not present in the House at this time, when one of the most important vehicles of co-operative development in agriculture in the rural areas was being discussed! It seems to me that she does not understand her responsibilities, and that she is drifting much more towards a reckless anarcho-syndicalist tendency when she is dealing with the question of what ought to be national development in the country. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, I have very little time so, first of all, thanks to all the parties for their support of the Bill.
Secondly, I want to indicate that there is already an existing set of programmes to support co-operatives, operating at national, provincial and local government level. The main purpose of this Bill is to refocus and reorganise this support programme into a much more effective instrument to support co-operatives. It is not about creating a new bureaucracy. We are not about to create a large number of new structures and salaries, and whatever. I have indicated before that we intend, in fact, to economise by using existing infrastructure wherever possible. I can give you the assurance that it is our intention not to see a mushrooming or a ballooning of irrelevant bureaucracy.
I can't resist responding to the comments about my shirt that were made by hon Oriani-Ambrosini. He said that I would make a good minister of welfare. Well, I think that he has just shown that he does not understand what co- operatives are about. Co-operatives are not about welfare! Co-operatives are about organising large numbers of people into productive activity, and co-operatives can have a very significant impact on the productive economy if we get them right. So, I think I just have to say that wearing a suit, a tie - and a waistcoat nogal [mind you] - doesn't mean that you speak more sense in Parliament! Thank you very much! [Applause.] [Laughter.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.