Hon members, I would like to make a ruling on the point of order raised earlier by hon Bloem. Firstly, let me remind members that the mandate of the NCOP differs from that of the National Assembly. Secondly, hon Bloem, members of the NCOP have a dual responsibility, first as members representing their provinces and second as members of the Council and, by implication, Members of Parliament. So, there is nothing wrong with members representing their provinces in this House.
As to whether the speech or the mandate emanates from the executive of the province, it should not be an issue, because even the executive members of provinces who come here participate as special delegates. So, your point of order is overruled.
Chair, it's a pity that you are making this ruling ... [Interjections.] ... You know, the hon Feldman exposed himself by referring to the select committee as the portfolio committee, confirming the fact that the speech that he was reading was, in fact, from the DA in the National Assembly, NA. He was given the speech to come and read it here in the NCOP. So, I would not really bother ... That is why he was confusing the issue. [Interjections.] I don't know, because I'm intimidated now.
Chairperson, on a point of order: I would just like to rectify this: It is a fact that also applies to the portfolio committee. [Interjections.]
It is quite clear then, if that is the case, that his ghost was sitting in the portfolio committee when that report was submitted. He was not in the NA. [Interjections.] Nevertheless ...
Excuse me!
Hon Feldman, please take your seat. [Interjections.]
I think one of the things that one needs to start with in engaging with this particular debate is the level to which we need to be careful. I get worried when the DA starts to emphasise the notion of rural development, especially when it calls on the department to strengthen the capacity of financing rural housing support mechanisms. For obvious reasons, they are being disingenuous; it is not about a love for rural development. We know that the policy framework that characterises the DA is premised on neoliberalism. There is no way that the DA would have such a great interest in rural development. [Interjections.]
The main issue here behind that support for rural development is the fear and the extent to which they don't want our people to move from the rural areas and, in particular, from the Eastern Cape to the Western Cape. [Interjections.] They want our people to remain there in the Eastern Cape. [Interjections.] So we know that's their strategy.
Ours is quite different; ours is about rural development. Through that rural development programme we will integrate the South African society. It is about the integration of the rural economy and the urban economy. It's about the integration of human settlements in the rural areas with those in the urban areas. We will, therefore, build a united, democratic, nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous society; not the one that they are talking about. [Applause.] Theirs is about: "Keep them there in the Eastern Cape." [Interjections.] "Let them not come to us and bother us because of the issues."
They talk about informal settlements and the mushrooming of informal settlements, and I said in the last debate that the DA is Cape Town-blind. To them, Cape Town is the Western Cape. You just have to go down the N1 - I'm repeating this- to De Doorns; just to De Doorns here on the N1. When I drive home to Kimberley, I am shocked to see the mushrooming of informal settlements in that particular area. What is it that the DA is doing in the Western Cape to eradicate informal settlements? All they can talk about is Cape Town.
Let me take the opportunity to applaud and congratulate the department on the manner in which they have approached this thing, especially the example that the Deputy Minister was giving with regard to Limpopo. What we are saying, hon Deputy Minister, is that there must be a socialisation of that economy. Let us emphasise the socialisation and the broadening or the maximisation of our people's participation, especially young people and young women.
The only issue that we are consistently raising - and we will consistently raise this - is the support for youth construction co-operatives. Yesterday, interestingly, the matter was raised with Public Works, and a commitment was given for the development and support of these co-operatives through the Public Works Programme. We think that through our integrated approach, as departments, we would then be able to tap into that.
Those young people who have benefited from that Limpopo programme should not be deployed anywhere else or in other projects. Let them be organised. Let them be formalised and given opportunity, capacity and training in order for them to access other avenues that will be economically beneficial to them as we continue our programme on housing.
Having been to Gauteng to bury our stalwart, Mama Sisulu, over the weekend, one was exposed to very important developments that are happening there. For example, social housing projects are developing there, especially the one next to Noordgesig. However, what we have picked up is that while the department is progressing in relation to social housing provision, there is a lack of integration with other departments; hence the upsets that we see in Noordgesig. The planning did not go with the infrastructure and therefore there was an overreliance on the electricity grid in the Noordgesig community, which in turn - as was reported - caused overloading. Therefore, we are calling on the department, while it is moving in a positive way, to let that movement be accompanied by an integrated way of settling our people and ensuring that they benefit.
The other aspect that we are raising, hon Deputy Minister, is that 80% of the human settlement development grant will be going to provinces - 80%! What we have realised - I mean, this our experience from the past - is provinces' lack of capacity to spend these conditional grants that are transferred to them. Therefore we are calling on the department to put in place mechanisms that will ensure that we don't have a disintegrated approach in terms of money being dumped in provinces and provinces being left on their own.
When we were engaging with your department we could pick up that it seemed as if there was a disjuncture between the national and the provincial level. The national level seemed not to have a grip on what happens in our provinces when it came to the spending of these grants. So we are calling on the department to really improve on the co-ordination level. Yes, we understand that provinces have their own powers and so forth, as prescribed in the Constitution, but let's find a mechanism to ensure that, whatever it is that we are doing, provinces are capacitated much better to be able to spend on the jobs that we need so badly.
We are raising the point because we are aware that job creation is primary to this government's priorities, and one area that is being identified as such an important area is infrastructure development and human settlement. It is our view, Deputy Minister, that with your department there must be some way of integrating some of the programmes that are geared at job creation with those of the Expanded Public Works Programme; because if one looks at this programme, it says that it skills young or unemployed people in bricklaying, among other things. But how are these people then integrated into the main activities that must take place. Our view is that if in the Expanded Public Works Programme there are people who were trained to produce bricks, these people must be organised and the systems they are using to produce bricks must be integrated with what Human Settlements is doing. In that way we won't have to deal with this whole notion of fronting and the question of whether people are only coming in as labour providers. At the end of the day we integrate them in such a manner that they ultimately become owners of the processes of any particular form of production.
Lastly, yes, we are aware that certain municipalities have been identified as your agents, for lack of a better word. We are just calling for the systems in the national department to support these municipalities. We found it quite worrying and we think that support is quite important for municipalities to be able to deliver. [Time expired.]
Chairperson, allow me to greet the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, hon Thandi Memela.
Let me start by responding to the presentation from the DA, given by the person who represented the MEC. I must also say that I accept what the chairperson, the hon Pat Sibande, said on the issue of building sustainable communities, particularly to ensure that human settlements are cohesive in nature and integrated in the manner we create them, so that where we work is where we stay, and houses are closer to the places of work. We agree with that.
The hon member of the DA, we accept what you are saying in terms of your proposals, but I just want to caution that this caring government of the ANC will never depart from providing houses to the poorest of the poor. It doesn't matter what the DA says they think of the poor people, but during the elections they used them a lot to garner votes, yet now they turn their back on them. [Interjections.] It is not surprising; it is what we expected. We told them, but now they are reaping the fruits of exactly what they have done. [Interjections.]
Chair, I rise on point of order: The Deputy Minister is misleading the House by saying that the DA is using people, which is definitely ... [Inaudible.] ... because our voters know what we stand for in the Western Cape. Thank you.
Hon Faber, please take your seat. You may proceed, Deputy Minister.
We agree that the mortgage default insurance, MDI, is meant to help the gap housing people, those low- to middle-income people. It is a process and we have outlined the way in which it will be dealt with, but it is not going to replace us giving a subsidy to the poorest of the poor. We will continue to do that. In particular, the Pie Act, the Prevention of Illegal Eviction from and Unlawful Occupation of Land Act, is the sole protection of the landless. At no point do we want to remove that legislation, because at the moment it is the only protection for the poorest of the poor. So, unfortunately, try next door! [Interjections.]
Who is next door?
One of the things that we want to emphasise in this budget is that the provinces must set aside 50% of their budget towards the People's Housing Process, PHP, because people must be encouraged to build their own houses. So we will still continue with the enhanced PHP process as far as Human Settlements is concerned.
We also urge, particularly the municipalities to whom we have given accreditation, that the formalisation of informal settlements is crucial, so that we can expedite the slum-upgrading programme.
I want to encourage the MEC of the Eastern Cape. I am very happy that you are ensuring that you will have delivery forums across the province. I am excited about the programme, particularly the Rural Housing Loan Fund voucher piloting projects. I think it is positive. We can see where the women are governing! You can see the processes and delivery moving. [Interjections.]
Mr Groenewald, sir, when it comes to corruption, you understand that you have the Special Investigating Unit, SIU, on your side. We will ensure that we follow up on those cases. Bring any evidence that you have and we will be able to follow up. [Interjections.]
Okay, I also want to talk ... [Interjections.] Members, niyaphazamisa [you are being a disturbance]. Hon Mabija, on the issue of hard rock posing challenges to sanitation, we will be able to follow that up, but we are happy with the progress that you have alluded to, which is crucial.
We understand the backlog as far as the Free State is concerned and we have put the national department to work with the Free State because they are far from meeting their target. We are having a Women's Build in August in the Free State so that we are closer to them and can monitor them in terms of moving forward. So, we have a plan on the Free State issue.
Cope looks as if it is confused, even in terms of the statistics they are coming up with. I don't know where they got them from. I just want to start from scratch and say to Cope that we are no longer ... [Interjections.]
Order, hon Bloem!
... even building RDP houses. We are building Breaking New Ground, BNG, houses. We are building quality houses. We have explained those issues here in the NCOP. [Interjections.]
It's not the ANC but the government that is building houses!
We have explained those issues in the NA. We understand the backlog in rectification. We are busy correcting those projects. We are saying all provinces must do an audit of cracked houses and say exactly what their plans are, but we have funding for the rectification of houses that were badly built. We do have that programme in place.
Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: I would like to turn it around: The Minister is confused. I talked about demolishing ... [Inaudible.]
Take your seat, hon Feldman. That is not a point of order. Proceed, Deputy Minister.
I agree with Comrade Tau on the issue of co-operative housing, particularly as far as the youth is concerned, so that we are able to empower the youth effectively. The provision of housing, with regard to the projects, is not only there for skills development but, at the end of the day, they must be at the centre of the economy. We agree with that process and we urge provinces to give us targets in terms of job creation. That's number one.
But all provinces must tell us how they are mainstreaming the youth, women and people with disabilities, because at the end of the day 80% of the budget comes from national level to provinces. It must be quantified in terms of value and the impact it makes on people in the economy. To the DA we say that you can see their approach in the fact that they have a cabinet of males. There is no caring in terms of the people who have painful experiences on the ground. They think, "It's a waste of money to give houses to the poor because they won't be able to pay for the services. We'd rather give to those who already have." That's the thinking of the DA. You can never have that thinking in the ANC.
I'm thinking you are afraid of the DA! You are very afraid of the DA. We are coming for you!
As a developmental state we are driving transformation. We want to transform this society. We are giving subsidies to the poorest of the poor, because to us it is asset creation. We are bringing the poor to the centre of the economy. And that agenda will always continue. [Interjections.] As the ANC and this government we will continue to care for the poorest of the poor. It doesn't matter how much you confuse them with your male cabinet that does not care about the people. When it suits you, you use women to garner votes. Three women were used to garner votes. [Interjections.]
Order, members!
At the end of the day, at the back of the room, the male thinks only about maledom. Thank you.
Debate concluded.
Business suspended at 14:15 and resumed at 15:05.