Chairperson, hon Sithole has asked a question that affects one of the most intractable problems the country is confronting. The question is about hostels. The specific question is about the Thokoza Hostel which, as I recently mentioned in this House, I personally visited.
To change the landscape of hostels is going to be one long haul. We should all know that.
The national department is currently reviewing its human settlements development funding model in line with the new service delivery approach of the outcomes-based targets, which we recently signed with the President as part of our delivery commitment. The funding of the Thokoza Hostel project will therefore be made available in terms of this model.
The availability of the funding will be dependent upon finalisation by National Treasury, which is currently being consulted through the Medium- Term Expenditure Committees process.
Therefore, I assure hon Sithole that this commitment remains. However, it is prudent that this process be strictly adhered to before any public funds are expended. This House knows very well that, from my side as a member of the Cabinet, and together with Cabinet, the last thing this department would want to entertain is to spend public funds without exercising due care. We therefore remain committed to the Thokoza initiative, but now the changes have to happen in line with the new commitment around the outcomes- based approach. The fund is there and, as soon as we are ready to send that money, we will do that. I thank you.
Chair, I am shocked by what the hon Minister has said just now, because the hon Minister announced at Thokoza that he is going to fund the electrification of Thokoza. Ekurhuleni has funded the electrification because they expected the Minister to refund them. So if the Minister says he had not yet started to refund them, then we have a problem.
Is there a question there, hon member?
Chair, the hon member has a problem; he is just shocked. I want to repeat - it is not such a difficult thing to understand - that the commitment remains. The fund is in place and, as the Minister, I am committed.
I understand that place very well, but the change has happened in line with the outcomes-based approach. I have just signed this thing last month with the President, and this has changed the pace because I have to adhere strictly to this outcomes-based approach. So I am not going to throw good money at a bad project. We remain committed to help electrify that place and this matter is being communicated to the council in Ekurhuleni. Thank you.
Chairperson, I welcome the hon Minister's response to this question as it shows commitment.
Since the Minister has said that he had communicated this to the municipality, has this also been communicated to the residents, because it has raised high expectations for both; and how long will it take his department to fulfil this promise?
One other thing that the hon Minister must also note is that the municipality is currently under pressure and accused of failing to deliver. I thank you.
Chair, indeed, we have communicated, but the question of communicating with ordinary people on the ground is also the function of the municipality. However, there is no problem. Thokoza is just around the corner.
I have been there personally and I would want to go back there. If I have to communicate this to our people there myself, I will do just that. So it is not such a big issue. How long this will take depends on how soon we can give the electricians the funding. I thank you.
Chair, usually the electrification of any project takes place after renovation or upgrading. Therefore, if electrification is done first, will it not delay the upgrading of the hostels, because it may lead to a situation where the upgrading is delayed as the hostel dwellers will be deemed to have better living conditions? Thank you.
Chair, I understand that question very well. Sometimes upgrading goes hand-in-hand with electrification. I just want to inform this House that when we talk about the Thokoza Hostel, we are not talking about a structure which looks like this House; it's heart- rending!
Ka Sesotho ba re ke ntho ya masisapelo. Ho bohloko ho ya moo, ho bohloko! Ntate Buthelezi o a e tseba ntho ena. Ke ntho e thata. [In Sesotho they say it is heart-rending. It is painful to go there, painful indeed! The hon Buthelezi knows about this thing. It is a very difficult thing.]
We, therefore, have a problem, a very serious problem. Hon member, you are aware of what is happening there. If you start upgrading, it is going to take a long time; so if this electrification is going to happen, it must happen. They have to have lights, they must have warm water, and they must be able to cook for their children.
We are doing it in such a way that it addresses the immediate issues of the people, otherwise, if we subject them to the total upgrading of the hostel, it will be the long haul I spoke about. We are doing this out of sensitivity to the people. Thank you. [Applause.]
House Chairperson, the hon Minister partly answered my question. I wanted to ask him if it was prudent to spend money on the electrification when, in fact, there is no budget to rectify the building.
As he very well knows, the building is in a dire state and it could, in fact, be prejudicial to the safety of the dwellers. So is that not something that, with the limited budget, should be addressed and thereafter followed by the electrification? Thank you.
Chair, I know hon Steyn is a DA member, but I want to thank him for agreeing with me. As you have indicated, it is not an easy project, but we just have to help those people. The architects and other people involved - the electricians and engineers - have got to do it in such a way that, at a later stage, the total upgrading can incorporate and integrate the work that has already been done there. Thank you.
Particulars regarding development of educational materials and support programmes so as to effectively teach key aspects of climate change and global warming
218. Mr D A Kganare (Cope) asked the Minister of Basic Education:
Whether she has developed any educational materials and support programmes to assist educators to effectively teach key aspects relating to (a) climate change and (b) global warming; if not, why not; if so, (i) how many educational materials were developed, (ii) in which (aa) languages and (bb) provinces and (iii) how many educators received training? NO3141E
Thank you, Chair. This question relates to the inclusion of climate change and global warming in the curriculum. The answer is that climate change is integrated already, and is addressed in Natural Science and Social Science, in grades four to nine. It is also included in the Physical Science, Life Science and Geography curriculums in Grades 10 to 12.
The question also asks whether or not we have material on global warming. Education material for climate change and global warming is in approved textbooks for subjects in the national catalogue as well as in the provincial catalogues. These text books are in English and Afrikaans, because in those grades the language of learning and teaching is either English or Afrikaans.
The question further asks whether or not teachers have been trained in and understand the issues around climate change and global warming. Indeed, in 2008, the department trained more than 99 subject advisers who were meant to train teachers in their districts, specifically on issues of climate change and global warming.
We are aware that we have teachers, who teach these subjects in these grades, who have been exposed to and trained on global warming and climate change. Thank you. [Applause.]
Through you, Chair, Mr Kganare will not be raising a supplementary question.
Hon Chairperson, I have already asked my supplementary question. Thank you.
Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you, hon Minister for the positive response that you have given this House. Hon Minister, will the subject advisors that the department has trained be able to direct teachers' attention towards highlighting climate change in the curriculum? Thank you.
Thank you very much, Chair. Indeed, the subject advisors were trained specifically in these areas because of the importance of ensuring that our children do understand issues around climate change and global warming.
We are working quite closely with the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs to also make sure that indeed these concepts are understood. So the answer is yes, attention has been drawn to the importance of theses issues. Thank you.
Chair, because climate change is one of the most compelling issues of our day, it is essential that there be a public understanding of that and that it be cultivated at all levels in our education system.
As the Minister points out, in terms of its content, it is included in the Geography and Environmental Science part of the curriculum. So is it not perhaps appropriate to include climate change, global warming, adaptation and mitigation in the civics education part of the curriculum so that every child is, in fact, exposed to that information?
Member, I did indicate that these issues are dealt with in Natural Science and Social Science in the lower grades, where there is no choice of subject. So every learner will have been exposed to them. It is only in Grades 10 and 11 where they are only found in Physical Science and Life Science.
Therefore, the basics will have been learned in the intermediate phase where every child will have been exposed to them. Only the deeper concepts are tackled under Physical Science, which are the mitigating factors. This is really not so much a civic education issue, but a deeper understanding of the physics around them that they are taught about in a later class. But all children will have been exposed to these issues in their intermediate phase.
Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, I am sure that you will remember that there was a subject, during my years of schooling, which they called "Omgewingsleer", in English "Environmental Studies".
I hope that I have translated that correctly. I think that whilst we appreciate the efforts of the department to deal with the question of climate change and global warming, it is still important for the department to engage the learners at a very early stage, because concepts like "mitigation" might sound very difficult, but they can be explained in a very simple way. The same applies to adaptation, because we can show them examples of how animals adapt to climate change. Thank you.
In case the hon member is like me - these grades also confuse me - Grade 4 is Standard 2 according to the old terms. This means that it is already at that early age. So, we are saying that between Standard 2 and Standard 9 minus two - Grade 7 - they will have learned that. [Laughter.]
Therefore, if we take those back to exactly the age that we were being taught these things, you will see that we are teaching them at the same age; it is just that we are using different terms for the grades. It sounds later, but it is actually earlier. It is Standard 2, so I guess it is early enough to expose them to these issues. As I have said, we have also changed the way we name subjects.
Perhaps what you were calling Environmental Studies, being older than you, we called something else in my time. Now you might find that the subject that you named, calling it in Afrikaans, is one of the subjects here; either it is Natural Sciences or Social Sciences. So, these might be terms that we are talking about.
The fact of the matter is that we are indeed trying to spread as much as possible across the different subjects at a lower phase. As the member has said, at a senior phase, where we now include the concepts as part of Physical Sciences, where we are now looking at the scientific part of it, it is in Grades 10 and 12. Grade 10 is Form 3 and Grade 12 is Form 5.
That is where we go deeper. So it is exactly at the same age, there is just a difference in how we name the grades and subjects. But we agree with you.
Thank you, hon Minister. You are not the only one. I have a last opportunity here for another supplementary question. No one? Then I go to question 183 put by the hon Thobejane to the Minister of Social Development.
Position regarding (i) systems to prevent SA citizens who have British citizenship from receiving pensions from both countries and (ii) number of persons receiving both a state pension and a pension from a foreign state
183. Mr S G Thobejane (ANC) asked the Minister of Social Development:
(1) Whether there are any systems in place to ensure that South African citizens who also have British citizenship do not receive pensions from both countries; if not, why not; if so, (a) what systems and (b) how does her department apply these systems to applicants with dual citizenship;
(2) how many persons who are receiving state pensions are also receiving pensions from a foreign state? NO2663E
Thank you, Chair. The first thing is to move from the premise that the pension that the hon member refers to is a social assistance pension and not any other kind of a retirement pension. Yes, indeed, we believe that our means test, which we have in terms of the Social Assistance Act, is an administrative tool that requires every applicant for a pension to disclose any form of income, whether from South Africa or elsewhere - Botswana, Britain or anywhere else.
Individuals with dual citizenship are managed by exclusion through the application of this means test. Citizens with an income below the means test will qualify either for a full social grant or a reduced grant based on this means test, which they must declare in terms of the regulations and the Act.
Section 5 of the Social Assistance Act, Act 13 of 2004, states that only the following categories of people are eligible to receive social assistance in South Africa:
... South African citizens who are resident in the Republic, permanent residents and a category of persons prescribed by the Minister by notice in the gazette.
These requirements include valid forms of identification. The SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, can only comply with the eligibility provisions of the Social Assistance Act and can, therefore, not exclude anybody who qualifies in terms of the criteria stated earlier on.
Having said that, it does therefore indicate that we'll not have a number of people who are receiving pensions from any foreign state because, naturally, they'll be excluded by a means test, which is a tool we use. Thank you very much.
Ke a leboga, Tona. Ke nagana gore taba ye re e bolelago fa ya gore go na le badudi ba bangwe bao ba nago le magwalo a bodudi dinageng t?e pedi - ye nngwe ya dinaga t?e e le Afrika Borwa - gomme ba humana phen?ene ye o bego o e hlalosa fa, ke taba ye e lego gona. Ke ka lebaka leo ke bot?i?ago gore na le na le palo ye e laet ?ago batho bao ba swerego mangwalo a bodudi bja naga ye ya rena le bja naga ye nngwe ka nako ye tee gomme ba humana phen?ene go t?wa nageng ye nngwe ba dut?e ba le ka gare ga naga ye ya gaborena. Ge re sa be le palo ya bona, mma, re tlo humana e le gore batho bao ba se nago maswanedi a go humana t?helete ke bona ba e humanago gomme bao ba loket?wego ke go e humana ga ba e humane. Ke be ke kgopela gore le ?aleng taba ye morago gomme le boneng gore le e direla molawana wa go e hlaola. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[Mr S G THOBEJANE: Thank you, Minister. I think it is true that there are people with dual citizenship - one being South African - who are receiving a social assistance grant. This is the reason why I am asking if you have statistics on people with dual citizenship who are also receiving grants from foreign states while residing in our country. We need to have the number of such people to avoid a situation in which grants are paid to the wrong people instead of those who deserve it. I propose that you look at this matter and come up with an Act to clarify it.]
TONA YA TLHABOLOLO YA SET?HABA: Modulasetilo, tla ke arabe ka puo e gaufinyana le e rre a buileng ka yona. Dipalopalo tse rre a buang ka tsona ga re na tsona ga jaana, gonne fa re tsenya molao o mo tirisong, o tla bo o raya gore o ka tswa o le moagi wa Aforika Borwa, a o ka tswa o na le makwaloitshupo kana o le moagi wa dinaga di le pedi, se re yang ka sona go ya ka molao o re nang le ona ga jaana ke gore re leba gore letseno la gago le go dumelela go bona phen?ene eno ya thuso ya katletleloloago mo Aforika Borwa naa.
Ke tlhaloganya se rre a se buang fa a re ka gongwe re tshwanetse re lebe phetolo ya Melao gore e re kgontshe go leba batho bao. Ga jaana ka gore Molao ga o ise o fetolwe, ga re na dipalopalo tsa go nna jalo. Fa re ka tla ra leba Molao oo jaaka go tshitshinngwa, re tla kgona go nna le dipalopalo tse di ntseng jalo. Re amogela gore ka gongwe go a dumelesega ebile go a tshwanelega gore re lebe tshitshinyo e rre a e bayang. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, let me respond by using my common knowledge and also what the gentleman spoke about. At the moment we don't have the statistics that the gentleman is referring to, because if the Act is put into practice, this will imply that you can be a South African citizen, by virtue of having an identity document or a dual passport. In actual fact, what should guide us regarding this current Act is that we need to check whether your salary qualifies you to receive this social grant in South Africa.
I understand what the gentleman is referring to when he says we should maybe look at amending the Act so that it can allow us to accommodate those people. It should be noted that the Act has not been amended at the moment, and furthermore we don't have the statistics. Once we look at that Act as it is suggested, we will be able to have the statistics. It is acceptable and it is also in order for us to consider the gentleman's suggestion.]
Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, I really agree with what you said about the means test, but Sassa doesn't have cross- reference resources because they rely on the hard copy information provided to them. In the light of the fact that Sassa doesn't have the resources to cross-reference, will the Minister initiate any bilateral agreement with the British government or any other country where people have a dual membership? At present Sassa relies only on the hard copy information that is given to them as much as they don't have access for cross-reference, where someone has not declared any banking accounts. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Thank you, hon Chair. Yes, indeed, I agree that we do not have a cross-referencing system currently, but as I indicated earlier on, we solely rely on the Social Assistance Act. What hon members are proposing is something that we have to look at, which I responded to earlier. It may well be something that we need to look at - maybe not even a bilateral agreement, but the means to actually cross- reference. Thank you very much.
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.