Hon Chairperson, hon members, it is always encouraging to note that hon members of this House are closely following developments in the delivery and performance of government's antipoverty programmes. Let me state up front that the pace of delivery is not always as fast as we desire and often the impact is not immediately visible.
However, this inspires us to roll up our sleeves and work harder in order to lift our communities out of poverty. Indeed, government has rolled out several antipoverty initiatives in all provinces, including KwaZulu-Natal. These range from the Expanded Public Works Programme, the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, the Community Works Programme, the Community Development Worker Programme, the National Rural Youth Service Programme, Zibambele early childhood development, and a number of other initiatives that support poor communities to earn livelihoods.
These are all in addition to the provision of free basic services and other social protection measures that cushion people. The cumulative effect of all these initiatives is the constant chipping away at the massive problem of poverty that we have in our midst. It is my unwavering belief that the sum total effect of these initiatives is having an impact on the lives of poor people in our country.
We are taking children to early childhood development facilities. We are ensuring that children whose parents cannot afford to pay school fees are going to school. We are ensuring that those who need antiretroviral therapy are getting the necessary medicines. We are getting communities to work for the betterment of their people and their personal lives. We are getting our unemployed youth to work.
The impact of all these initiatives cannot be measured in terms of days, weeks or months. We believe it is a long journey towards a poverty-free KwaZulu-Natal and South Africa. The commitments we have made to these communities are being met on a daily basis. I need to inform hon members that these communities are generally categorised into immediate commitments, medium-term and long-term commitments.
We ensure that immediate commitments, such as taking a child to school, putting a child on a child support grant, issuing of vital registration documents, social relief of distress, health assessments, and linking individuals to available opportunities are fulfilled in the shortest possible time. The medium-term commitments certainly take a little more time, and so do the long-term ones.
What is most important is that none of the commitments made by government will be ignored or remain unattended to. We will do our utmost to follow up on commitments made to the poor communities of KwaZulu-Natal. We will be transparent with our successes as well as challenges confronted in fulfilling the commitments. We have delivered on some of the commitments we have made to the poor communities of KwaZulu-Natal and the rest of the country. We are following up on those that are outstanding. All spheres of government are aware of what needs to be done to meet all the commitments made to the poor communities.
I chair an antipoverty interministerial committee, which reviews the progress we are making with antipoverty initiatives. Last but not least, I call upon all hon members in this House to join us in the fight against poverty and to monitor progress and identify where we can do better. I thank you for your attention.
Chairperson, the Deputy President referred to the government making progress against the massive problem of poverty in South Africa. I would suggest that millions of South Africans, especially those in rural provinces like the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal, who experience grinding poverty on a daily basis, would disagree with him.
I would like to ask him whether government would consider implementing what the DA calls an income support and unemployment grant of R110 per month. Cosatu calls it a basic income grant. I would like to know if the state would consider introducing a grant like that and when last did they do a viability study of a grant like that? I thank you.
Hon members, the last time we were asked to consider the basic income grant, the administration of the proposal was seen as prohibitive. Instead, the approach we follow is that of profiling households. By doing so, we seek to identify poverty-stricken households. We take our data and direction from Statistics SA's provincial poverty index.
When we go into those households, we try to identify change agents in each of them. If we find someone who dropped out of school and did not complete his or her studies but is keen to go back and complete those studies, we then give dedicated support and we monitor such a person's progress. We do this in the belief that unless we identify such change agents and support them, poverty will be transmitted from one generation of that family to the next generation. The idea is that there have to be some members of the family who can pull that household out of the morass of poverty.
This is over and above other initiatives. For instance, when there is an aged person who does not have an ID, it is organised for him or her so that that person can source from the pension fund. If there are children, they will be registered for child support grants, and so on. So, all the other grants are awarded, but the idea is that there must be some members of the family who can be assisted in one way or the other.
In some instances, where the house is properly roofed and all that is required is for the gutters to be fitted onto the house and a water tank to be provided in order to harvest rainwater, the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries is able to do that. They can provide that kind of support and help the family. If there are extensive yards, they can help people to till the ground, cultivate it and produce vegetables to supplement the family supply of fresh vegetables. We have seen how those kinds of interventions assist in that regard.
This weekend we went to Plettenberg Bay with the premier of the province, Ms Helen Zille. We visited an area in the morning where in one of the households there lived five different families. The main tenant of the house was a Rastafarian gentleman who had taken some herbs. He told us there was a whole community of them, living somewhere in another part of the township. He requested that he be given ploughing fields where he would go and till, together with the rest of his community. We persuaded him that his yard was big enough and that he should begin there. We told him that we would assist the rest of his community when we find them there, but that he should till that piece of land he was staying on. It turned out that he had rented out space in the yard and his sub-tenants were paying him R150 per family. He had an income stream.
What I am trying to say is that it is helpful to have an understanding of each household's profile and intervene in that way, because a general basic income scheme means that you give R100 to everyone, from the ones who need it to those who don't. From those who don't need it, you then find another way of deducting it from their income. The administration of it proved to be a bit prohibitive. I am sorry I was a bit long-winded. I thank you.
The name of the school visiting us is Fondwe Primary School, from Limpopo. It seems as if they are now leaving. Thank you very much.
Hon Chairperson, Deputy President, it is indeed gratifying to see you here today, given the extent of your travels over the last week. But it is great to hear about your travels too, Sir.
The question I would like to ask you, given your answer to the previous question, is with regard to the food parcels which are indiscriminately distributed among communities, many to needy families, but others to whomever happens to be around. This seems to happen on a fairly regular basis, particularly as we approach an election, as we are doing next year. Does the Deputy President think this is a good thing and really a poverty alleviation measure? I thank you.
Mr Lees, I would phrase your question differently, rather than saying "discriminately", because we don't have proof of that.
Chairperson, I said "indiscriminately".
Indiscriminately?
Mr Chair, I apologise for putting it badly. By saying indiscriminately, I mean there is no selection process. Whoever happens to be there, gets it.
Okay.
Chairperson, as I understand it, food parcels are distributed by the Ministry of Social Development. They follow the same approach of identifying the people who need such food parcels. Some of them are people who are HIV-positive and on treatment and therefore need to receive food parcels before taking their treatment.
If there is any evidence that these are used to buy votes, that is something that we will condemn up front. The food parcels must always be given as relief to the needy, to those who are indigent and would otherwise go without food if they did not receive such food parcels. They were never meant for buying votes. In any case, I think it would be a futile effort to try to buy votes by providing people with food parcels because they will eat and once they have had their fill, they will make their choices in accordance with their preferences. I thank you. [Applause.]
I recognise the Speaker of the Eastern Cape legislature, Mr Xasa, who is our visitor. You are welcome in the NCOP. Mr Mlenzana, I thought you had your hand up? Thank you very much.
Hon Chairperson, appreciating that fighting poverty is everybody's business, I wish to ask the Deputy President whether any of the universities and/or technikons have been involved in coming up with fresh ideas and new modes of doing things to make antipoverty community projects viable, sustainable and profitable. I thank you.
Yes, indeed, there are a number of universities that pay attention to the efforts of combating poverty. They have come up with a number of very useful proposals, in particular with regard to the utilisation of the land.
I know that the University of the Witwatersrand and the University of Stellenbosch, among others, have come up with a number of very good innovative ways of treating very barren soil and utilising the limited supply of water for irrigation. They also recommended vegetables and plants that help to enhance the ecosystem. These methods have now been incorporated into the work done by the Ministry of Rural Development and Land Reform, trying to spread the method to communities that would otherwise not have access to such information and knowledge. I thank you.
Thank you, hon Chairperson and hon Deputy President, we appreciate your frankness and we know you as an honest man in many things, also in the answer you gave us this afternoon regarding the issue of the buying of votes.
What would your position be in terms of the current situation which transpired in the Northern Cape, where by-elections are taking place today. Not more than a week ago, the department of social services actually closed offices. Officials of those departments were instructed to specifically go and canvass for the ANC, including by way of handing out food parcels.
If the hon member has such information, I think he should drop the Public Protector a line to go into that. The Public Protector is authorised to do that and has the powers to investigate that. Whatever the outcomes are, we will live with them here. I thank you.
Position regarding offer of assistance to, and terms of engagements with Somalia
18. Mr M P Sibande (ANC) asked the Deputy President:
Whether South Africa will offer assistance to Somalia as reportedly expressed by the African Union; if not, why not; if so, (a) what are the terms of engagement with Somalia and (b) what are the further relevant details? CO362E
Hon Chairperson, hon members, no final decision has been made as to what South Africa's assistance to Somalia will be.
One of the most important aspects, as acknowledged by the African leaders at the Kampala summit, is that a military intervention alone would not resolve the Somali conflict. A comprehensive approach that addresses the political process, security and piracy is needed. As a result it is crucial that the search for a comprehensive, all-inclusive solution is stepped up.
The major challenge is broadening participation in the Somali political process to include an overwhelming number of parties, which will lead to an all-inclusive ceasefire agreement. This has to be done in co-operation with other African partners, in particular the Intergovernmental Authority on Development, Igad - an organisation to which Somalia belongs.
The African Union, through the chair of the commission, approached South Africa to assist in relation to the contribution of troops, provision of equipment to support the troops, assistance to the maritime component, or funding for the peace mission, all of which would have financial and human resource implications for South Africa. In view of these implications, it is important that the matter first be discussed by our Cabinet before a decision is taken.
In the meantime, South Africa will consult with other interested parties on Somalia, like the Igad countries and the African Union mission in Somalia, on how best to support the political process and find a lasting solution in Somalia. I thank you.
Thank you, Deputy President, for your detailed reply. I would like to put a follow-up question: Does this mean we are not giving in to pressure by the United States of America, USA, and the European Union, EU, for South Africa to go to Somalia? I ask this because the perception exists that we are being pressurised by them. Thank you.
No, we will not give in to any such pressure, if it exists at all. This is a matter that was discussed at the summit of the AU in Kampala, and we will consider it in that context. Thank you.
Chairperson, I would like to ask if the Deputy President believes that the instability in Somalia poses a security risk or a terror threat to either South Africa or the international community.
Yes, indeed, I do believe that the situation and instability in Somalia pose a security threat to the whole continent. As you know, even in the deep seas there are pirates who are known to have hijacked a number of oil tankers for ransom. That is why the AU recognised that it's a challenge which would not submit to simple militaristic intervention. It requires or demands a much more comprehensive response, precisely because of its nature.
As South Africa, we have to be circumspect regarding the role we play, because we would not want to invite onto our shores problems that are extraneous. For that reason, we will play our role within the AU and United Nations, UN. Thank you.
Hon Chairperson, Deputy President, the problems of our continent very quickly become our own problem as people migrate south to run away from their countries' problems. I therefore wish to ask: To what extent is government using the Pan-African Parliament and the African Union to deal with political instability, tension and conflict to help afflicted Africans north of our borders? I thank you.
That's a very big, broad question which doesn't have to do with Somalia but with peace and stability on the continent. I leave it to the Deputy President, if he would like to respond to it.
I concur, hon Chairperson. I'm in difficulty as well. Thank you.
Deputy President, if the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, and its personnel get involved in Somalia, it will probably be at a higher level of intensity than in any other conflict area we have been involved in in Africa. We will have to be prepared to take casualties. It's a different, insurgency type of operation there.
I want to ask the Deputy President: Can I trust that before we commit any Defence Force personnel, they will have the required logistical background needed for what is really going on there and that they will be trained for that type of operation? Thank you, Chair.
As I said, there is no decision to deploy the SANDF personnel to Somalia. Somalia is a very difficult proposition in the sense that there is no state in Somalia. Therefore it is not as if you'd be going there to assist the state to deal with a challenge or a problem. The mission itself would not be a simple peacekeeping mission because there is no peace. There is no state. The place is under the domain of a number of families who have their own armies. It is really a much bigger problem than we've ever dealt with before. So, I think before any decision is arrived at, all of these factors would have to be taken into account. Thank you.
Deputy President, given the dire situation that you described in ... sorry, I have forgotten the country - Somalia, is it the position of South Africa to discourage our citizens from travelling to that country and is that advice being given to people who make contact with government departments regarding travel to Somalia?
Well, as I said, there is no state in Somalia, so there is not even direct transport to Somalia. As a state, we certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to travel to Somalia because, in the first place, yes, it is a failed state. There is nothing.
As you know, historically, Somalia was two different colonies; one part was a British colony and the other a French colony. After independence they merged to create Somalia as we know it today. The one part is predominantly Muslim, and the other part is predominantly Christian and English-speaking.
At one point, war broke out between them and the citizenry of the former British colony was almost exterminated. They survived; they have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps; they have a thriving economy; they have a parliament; they have their own army; and they call themselves Somaliland. This part, which is recognised as Somalia, is without a state and there is utter chaos, every day.
At the end of last year they bombed graduates - students who were graduating at universities - and killed them. Last week they bombed the meeting of what remains as government there. So, it's a difficult, very difficult, situation. It is not the kind of problem that can be solved by the region or the continent alone. It is actually a Security Council problem. Thank you.
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