Chair, what we are doing right now is to take measures to regulate the situation on the ground. The problem with this question is that it is similar to the questions I have just answered. That is why I am stuck.
But let me answer it as follows: The process of improving the beneficiary management system is continuing. We curb corruption, particularly corruption by beneficiaries who are getting subsidies from government. We don't want people to get a subsidy more than once. So, we developed a system where it can easily be detected if a person has already benefited in terms of a subsidy.
We are working closely with other departments. We are checking title deeds with the Deeds Office; we are checking information with Home Affairs; and we are also checking information in terms of the government system, as I have already said, so that we can easily detect whether a person has already benefited from the government subsidy.
I have already spoken about officials. This is almost the same question. I thank you.
Deputy Chair, I would just like to ask the Deputy Minister if the system also works across provincial boundaries. This is because in the past a person would apply for a subsidy, get a house, then rent it out, move over and apply again. Is this now in working order? Thank you.
Chair, that is exactly what we are doing. We are trying to have a system like a smart card in place, where one will just press it and then we will know that they accessed a subsidy in the Western Cape and that they are now moving to Mpumalanga. At the moment, we are working hand in hand with other departments to consolidate this system so that it is linked to one government system. We don't want to have too many systems because then we won't be able to detect if a person has already benefited from the subsidy.
This is with the exception of those who are in government, because with Persal we can see if a person does get funding from government. In terms of title deeds, we can see if a person has a house. But with other systems people cannot be detected. A consolidated one, which speaks to the systems of Welfare and Education, is a better one. That is what we are busy with. As soon as we are ready with the system, we will roll it out officially.
Deputy Chair, Deputy Minister, I want to find out whether the findings with regard to the assessment on the occupation of these houses will be published.
Chair, we will definitely publish the findings of the assessment on the occupation of these houses because we must make it public. As soon as we find out exactly what the extent of the situation is, we will make it public. We will make sure that it is accessible to all. You will be able to see it, hon member.
Engagement with provinces and municipalities in the selection of beneficiaries for new housing projects
27. Mr R J Tau (ANC) asked the Minister of Human Settlements: Whether his department engages provinces and municipalities in establishing a strategic mechanism to strike a balance between informal settlement dwellers and backyard dwellers in the selection of beneficiaries for the new housing projects; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO95E
Chairperson, as part of the human settlement strategy we urge provinces and municipalities to ensure that when they do housing allocation for new projects they should also take into account the people who live in informal settlements and the backyard dwellers. That would help them not to allocate houses to people who are in informal settlements only and ignore the backyard dwellers. If they did so, it would mean they were telling people that they must go and occupy land before they are given a house.
So, as we are getting on with the N2 gateway project, which is the pilot project, there are 70% of people who are already staying there, and 30% will be allocated to the backyard dwellers. This would help those people to benefit from projects that government is giving to our people so that we don't have a separate system.
We encourage provinces - and this is just a policy now that we are still piloting - to have this kind of mind-set so that all the new projects benefit both the backyard dwellers and those who are in the informal settlements.
Chairperson, I would like to recap what the Deputy Minister has said. She said that the balance of the housing will be as follows: 30% to the backyard dwellers and 70% to the informal settlements. This is what I find a little bit disconcerting because in the past there weren't as many informal settlements as there are now, and people who lived in other people's backyards were always there and waiting patiently for housing. They have been on the housing list for a long time.
The housing list goal post has been moved repeatedly, like they are doing now with a new list. So, I am a little bit worried that the people in the backyards are being neglected. And the fact that the Minister is worried about the informal settlements coming in and that they have to first invade land before they get attention is exactly what is being encouraged here with this 70% and 30%.
Chairperson, I think the hon member should realise that it is important that she understands what I am saying. I am saying that even the 70:30 ratio is not a policy, but we are mooting something to that effect. I would agree with you because we would have preferred that the allocation is 50:50 and not 70:30. I definitely would have liked that kind of situation. At present, the municipalities in terms of their criteria don't even have the 70:30 ratio.
So, the whole thing is still under discussion, and the government is urging municipalities to make sure, as they allocate new projects, that even the backyard dwellers benefit from these projects, as was the case earlier on with the project linked subsidy, where we removed the link in order to allow flexibility for the backyard dwellers.
Government is doing its best to accommodate backyard dwellers. At the moment we need buy-in from municipalities and provinces. We are doing our best as government, but we need the partnership of the three spheres so that we all speak with one voice on this matter, but I agree with the hon members.
Chairperson, there is another problem in that you give a person a house but then after a week you see another umkhukhu [shack] next door to that house. How are you going to deal with the problem of being under the impression that you have given a person a house, and the next thing there is an umkhukhu [shack] next door?
Chairperson, that is what we are talking about. We are saying that people must have ownership of the property that we give to them. It is important that the tenants should be proud of the little that government does, so that we don't make squatter camps out of the very same houses that we provide for the people. That definitely needs partnership in communities. It needs strict monitoring in terms of street committees. It needs NGOs, Cope and them, to do their jobs because there is no way that they can pass the buck to government.
It is our responsibility as communities to see to that. The eyes and ears of government are the people on the ground. We as the ANC government are providing our people. However, let us please hold hands together and make our people own these processes so that they can also be proud of it, and when they see somebody putting an umkhukhu [shack] there they must go and demolish it. Government cannot monitor all such actions; it is the committees that should monitor that.
Chairperson, we are actually sitting with a very difficult situation and have complete sympathy with what the Minister is saying. In Coega, the agreement is that the title deed states that one is not allowed to sell the house within a period of nine years or to have any temporary shelter erected on ones premises.
The problem is then that the duty of the municipalities is to make sure that their law enforcement agencies enforce those regulations. At the moment they don't do that. So, it remains an official thing and not of the communities, because the communities are actually overburdened and the current climatic conditions are contributing to it.
Furthermore, we are sitting with all these backyard dwellers and they are a health problem. So, officials must do their jobs.
Chairperson, I agree with the hon member that officials must do their jobs, but who is doing the monitoring? We must monitor the municipalities and make the authorities work. It is not the municipalities' issue, it is ours as Members of Parliament and as members of communities.
It is also not a question of saying that after a period of nine years you may sell the house. We say you must give that house back to government, so that government can give it to another person. Because if we say sell the house and end there, then the whole backlog is not going to be addressed.
If people have enough after eight or nine years, the first buyer should be government so that at the end of the day we put the next person on the list into that house. In fact, we want to do away with the sale of houses so that, at the end of the day, if you want to sell the house you don't deserve to get money from government in any case.
Ours is to check the selling of houses. We are busy investigating that, and we are going to blacklist anybody who is defrauding government, whether you are a beneficiary or a contractor. Whoever defrauds government, the committees must know who those people are. Thank you.
Chairperson, may I please address you? Most of us in the executive are having problems with the time. Some of us have booked flights and have tried to change them but were not successful in getting later flights.
As a result of our executive commitments we were wondering whether we could approach the Chair and humbly request that those questions still remaining stand over or, alternatively, that we provide written replies to those questions.
Either of the two that suits the hon Chair as well as the House would be acceptable to us. So, we would like to make an application of that nature. It's not only myself who is affected by this, it's several of us. We do understand that it is as a result of the fact that the Deputy President's questions had to be brought in today. Our calculations were based on the normal three hours, and it is well beyond that, Chairperson. Thank you.
Chairperson, all it needs is for us in the House to agree and have consensus on the matter. I think we have to consider what the Deputy Minister had said - that we had a longer session with the Deputy President and, of course, this day was initially for them as a cluster.
Chairperson, from the position of the Western Cape, I would like to support the Deputy Minister in his proposal and suggest that the questions go for written reply.
Okay, that concludes the questions.
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.