Deputy Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition the hon Trollip, I stand by my statement that at a time of an economic crisis, when finances are under pressure, we all need to be careful about our expenses. Major commitments of government have to be considered very carefully in the light of the current economic conditions and the conditions of the poor and the unemployed.
To my knowledge, the vehicle purchases by members of Cabinet were all undertaken within the regulations set by the Ministerial Handbook, which sets out the benefits and privileges applicable to members of Cabinet, provincial executive councils and presiding officers of Parliament and provincial legislatures.
While some may hold the view that certain purchases were inappropriate in the current circumstances, these purchases were in fact planned and budgeted for. The purchases were not unethical in that they were not illegal or underhanded. For these reasons, we do not intend to request the return of the vehicles. In any event, as the hon Leader of the Opposition is aware, a used car is a used car. It has far less resale value than a new car, so returning the cars and buying cheaper ones would result in significant losses. While that may sound good, it is not particularly practical.
On 29 July this year, Cabinet agreed that a task team be constituted to prepare recommendations on developing measures for fiscal prudence, with specific reference to curbing wasteful expenditure, establishing cost- cutting measures and reviewing procurement practices. Furthermore, consideration will also be given to the possible adjustment of the existing guidelines for purchasing official vehicles for political office-bearers, as reflected in the Ministerial Handbook. This task team will report back to Cabinet in due course. I thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the hon Deputy President. Notwithstanding the provisions of the Ministerial Handbook and your response, I'd like to point out that the continental adjudicators of the Mo Ibrahim award have embarrassingly decided not to award this prestigious award to the 11 qualifying candidates, including our own former President Thabo Mbeki.
Considering the public appeals by the President, the Deputy President and various Cabinet Ministers - past and present - to all public figures to lead by example of frugality in these times of economic difficulty, and further considering that Kenya, which notoriously figures far worse than South Africa on Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index - with South Africa placed 54th and Kenya 147th - and that Kenya has instructed all its Cabinet members to return for resale all excessively expensive ministerial vehicles and has placed a ceiling on vehicle engine capacity of 1800cc or 1,8 litres for all Ministers, is the ANC government going to allow the successive display of conspicuous consumption to continue unchecked or is it going to reverse this display of greedy avarice? Even if we get less for a second-hand motorcar, it would be a wonderful example to the people that are suffering under poverty in this country.
Can we have a timeframe, hon Deputy President, regarding when these recommendations are going to be made by this task team? Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you very much, hon Trollip. My understanding of an economic recession is that the levels of demand come to a standstill. Therefore, those who engage in commodity production end up with the commodities stacked up in their warehouses and/or on the shelves of their stores, without people buying them because consumption is a function of liquidity. That is why governments are called upon, when you are in a recession, to revive the economy by ensuring that demand ... [Interjections.] ... I will give you an opportunity to speak here. I think it would be helpful for you not to interrupt.
I'm just making a simple point, that government is not an individual. In a recession, governments are called upon to intervene to ensure that the wheels of the economy continue to turn. Once people who live by earning wages are laid off, it means that they will not be able to buy anything. That is why, in certain instances in history, governments have been known to employ people to dig a trench up a street and the following week others have been employed and paid by the same government to fill up the trench just so that they have liquidity. That's how you deal with a recession, according to my understanding of a recession. [Applause.]
Now, let us deal with the issue of the calls for moderation, because that is the message we have received as government. That is why government has agreed to establish a task team to look at excesses, wastages and all of those things. This task team will be looking at the totality of expenses that may require review. Those excesses range from the procurement of vehicles right up to this expensive practice of having Parliament in Cape Town, when government is in Pretoria. [Applause.]
Cumulatively, there's more wastage in the manner we have located the seat of government and Parliament. That is why the old Nationalist Party government used to spend half the year in Cape Town and half the year in Pretoria. Now, there is a lot of commuting and Ministers have two houses when they should be living in one house. That would be a major saving.
So, these are a range of wastage areas and linkages that this task team will be looking at and reporting on to Cabinet. Cabinet will then take a decision on those matters. You see, in South Africa there are people who are wallowing in riches - who can afford all kinds of toys and so on - which are privately owned. What we are concerned about is the public kitty. What is the public kitty used for?
The moral of this question is that we must not elevate poverty into virtue. Our thrust must be to empower the poorest of the poor not to live on alms, but to be able to eke out a decent living on their own. These, I think, are matters that we should make time to discuss so that at least there's a common position that we adopt as Parliament rather than seeking to score points on little matters. I don't think that helps us.
As I said earlier on, South African society is who we are. There are many classes and stratifications in this society and our role is not to put watertight fences around these, but to try and unite our people and give them a sense of pride and belonging as South Africans. By so doing, we can deal with the disabilities accumulated over the years. I think it is important to adopt that approach.
As for the resale of second-hand vehicles, I know that in a recession in particular, if you buy a car for R1 million and you drive out in that car, and in a week's time you try to find a buyer for it, you would struggle to find a buyer who is willing to pay R600 000 for that vehicle.
I don't know the economics of the Kenyan government or the management of finances ... [Applause.] ... but I think this is not a good example to follow. Thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, about two months ago President Zuma pledged to curb excessive government spending in the wake of the scandal over ministerial cars. That has, unfortunately, not happened.
About two months earlier, on 24 June to be exact, during the debate on the Presidency Budget Vote, the hon Deputy President made a statement that appears in today's Question Paper, in essence, correctly saying that excessive government spending does not make economic and ethical sense. We agree with him that financial mismanagement by government is unethical, wrong and insensitive to millions of South Africans who struggle to put a decent meal on the table.
What we want to know is whether the above statements by both the President and the Deputy President were discussed with the Cabinet. If yes, were there any agreements and what were the agreements about these statements? If not, why not, because the public outcry is loud and clear as a result of the difficult economic conditions they find themselves in? And as the Deputy President correctly said, they want to see moderation in government spending. Thank you.
Thank you, hon Meshoe. As I have already stated, yes indeed, we stand by those statements. This is work in progress, and I've tried to illustrate the range of areas that the Cabinet task team is going to look into and report back to Cabinet on. Once Cabinet receives that report, it will be able to take decisions and act on the basis of those decisions. I thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, His Excellency the Deputy President, hon colleagues, I want to speak as a mediator today. [Laughter.] I think that His Excellency the President and the government, meaning the Cabinet, are not surprised that people from the opposition parties are raising this issue. I'm sure if they were in the same position, they would do the same.
However, I think the point has been made. If we look and think back to the days when our people were oppressed and consider the vehicles that were used by government then, I don't know how much fuss came from that. [Applause.]
My fellow opposition leaders mustn't say that I'm spoiling their case, but I think the point has been made. But, at the same time, I think we should balance these things, look at what happened in the past and compare the poverty and oppression that our people suffered at that time. We should also look at the money per capita that was spent on white children and black children. [Applause.] In other words, I'm not saying that the point should not have been raised, but that this cow has run dry; we have been milking it and milking it. I think the point has been made, but I don't think that we should really do this as if we didn't live in South Africa before.
My former colleagues in the Cabinet, such as Minister Manuel, Minister Sisulu and others will know that I, as Minister, used the cars that I had used as chief minister right through in Cape Town. So, I have a very clear conscience. However, I don't want to be judgmental to the extent that I forget about the past and overreact on the matter we are dealing with now.
So, I'm speaking as a mediator now. This point has been made and we are tired of it. [Applause.]
Hon Deputy President, that was a comment.
Madam Deputy Speaker, yes, it was not a question.
Siyabonga, Shenge. [Thank you, Shenge.] [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, I would like to concur with hon Shenge on this point. I think, from where we stand as the ANC, whilst it is okay for people to ask questions about any policy decisions of government, what is of critical importance to us is that that should not deflect us from the primary task of focusing on service delivery and on the better life that the rest of our people have long been waiting for.
In that regard, I'd like to ask the Deputy President if he will ask the Ministers to assure him that they've chosen the best and most reliable cars that will take them more quickly and more reliably to where our people are who need the services that the Ministers need to provide. I thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, hon Masutha. The Ministers have heard the message and that is why Cabinet has this task team to look at where it can make savings in order to redirect them towards service delivery. The task team will also look at wastage, to ensure that we get value for money and that money that is allocated is expended for the purposes for which it was intended. That message has been heard loud and clear. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Deputy President.
Undijamele uMnu Trollip apha. Ndiyabona ukuba akakoneli. Undijamele, kodwa bendimnikile ithuba lokuba abuze umbuzo. Uyazi ukuba bane qha abantu ekufuneka bebuze imibuzo. Ngoko, ukuba akakoneli, uya kuphinda athethe noSekela-Mongameli ngelinye ixesha. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.) [Mr Trollip is staring at me here. I can see he is not yet satisfied. He is staring at me, but I've given him the opportunity to ask a question. He knows that there are only four people who are supposed to ask questions. Therefore, if he is not satisfied, he can talk to the Deputy President some other time.]