Madam Speaker, the answer to this question about whether we received a letter from the leader of the MDC is: No, we haven't. And whether we would make a statement on the contents: No, we won't, because we don't have the letter. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Perhaps, Mr President, you have the same trouble with the post office as Amazon.com. [Laughter.]
If you haven't got the letter I will give you a copy, which we have. [Laughter.] The issues there are very much the ones that are still relevant today. I would therefore ask you, Mr President, if you will answer what emanated from the letter, but it need not be just related to the letter. And that is, given the decision of the MDC to withdraw their candidate from tomorrow's presidential run-off election as a result of the systemic violence and intimidation of ordinary Zimbabweans by Zanu-PF - as was confirmed by the United Nations Security Council resolution, with South Africa's concurrence - will you give this House the categorical assurance that South Africa will not recognise the results of tomorrow's illegitimate election; that you will decline to recognise Robert Mugabe as the next President of Zimbabwe; and that you will act diplomatically to isolate the illegitimate Mugabe government; if not, why not? [Applause.]
Madam Speaker, I do not know if the hon Leader of the Official Opposition has been asked by the MDC to serve as their postwoman. [Laughter.]
So, I don't know, she is offering to give me a letter which she was not given by the MDC and claims that it's from the MDC. That is why I am asking: Did the MDC say "Here is our letter, hand it over". Of course they didn't. So she shouldn't offer to be a spokesperson or a postwoman.
When we had a debate on the Budget Vote of the Presidency, the hon Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party raised an important question which I thought all of us understand by now, but clearly we don't. We have been asked by the SADC region to conduct a process that will facilitate an agreement among the Zimbabwean parties. The hon Leader of the Official Opposition refers to the Security Council's Presidential Statement and that statement refers to that facilitation.
What we have to do is indeed to encourage the parties in Zimbabwe to reach the agreement that is necessary. We continue to engage in that process. As I speak here, our delegation is in Zimbabwe engaging the leaders of Zimbabwe with regard to this matter. That is what we have to do.
The hon Andries Nel addressed this matter when we discussed it, just to give an indication of what it means to carry out a responsibility of this kind, which was originally given by SADC, but was confirmed even earlier this week by the United Nations Security Council - the same position taken by the African Union. That is a task to which we must attend. Anything and everything we do has to focus on that because that is what we are about, what the facilitation is about, what this region is asking for, and what the Security Council is asking for - that the Zimbabweans must arrive at a position from which, together, they can address the political and economic challenges that the country faces. [Interjections.]
You know, hon Tony Leon, that the reason we negotiated in South Africa, we sat and negotiated for a number of years and reached an agreement, was precisely because people were being killed. They were even being killed during the course of the negotiations. We had to suspend negotiations at least twice because of that. De Klerk is white, Mugabe is black, surely they are not the same. The one is this side, the other one is that side. I don't know! [Interjections.] The reason people negotiate is because they are at war. If they were not at war they would not need to negotiate. So, hon Leader of the Official Opposition, that is what we will do. We will continue to discharge the obligation that has been put to us. We have been asked if we could please lead this process and we will continue to do that. Hopefully the Zimbabweans, with such assistance as we can extend to them, will arrive at an agreement which will produce the kind of Zimbabwe that all of us want. [Applause.]
President, have other political parties provided you with any proposition with a viable solution? I ask this question for the following reasons: Firstly, history has proven that it is only indigenous endeavours towards a negotiated settlement, as opposed to hostile and politically bankrupt options - as is currently promoted by the opposition - that have brought viable political solutions. Some of these include nonstarter military action or intervention.
Secondly, notwithstanding the current crisis in Zimbabwe, there has been progress stemming from the sterling work done by the President, as mandated by SADC. Among other things, we have seen the improvement of the constitution as well as the elections in March, which were preceded by electoral reforms.
Lastly, mediation in essence is about balancing the interests and perceptions of parties in conflict, as well as managing the sensitivities, with the ultimate aim of facilitating and not imposing a settlement. Thank you.
I must say, hon Njikelana, indeed this is part of the question that we pose. As you would expect, many people speak to us and they say do this, that or the other. We continue to pose the question: Can you please give us some suggestions as to what else we might do that will produce a solution?
Neem sterk standpunt in! [Take a strong stance!]
And we don't get an answer to that question. [Interjections.] We, however, remain convinced, hon member, that there can be no solution to the problems of Zimbabwe, without the agreement of the political leaders of Zimbabwe.
Nobody is going to impose any solution on them, so centrally important to anything that has got to happen there is to encourage these leaders of Zimbabwe to come to an agreement about all of the matters that face their country. [Interjections.] As I was saying, hon member, we will continue to do that, because in reality there is no other way forward, except for that kind of agreement. In much the same way as there was no way forward out of our own crisis, without the agreement of our own people. Zimbabweans are no different from us. We would indeed appreciate any suggestions that are made.
Neem standpunt in! [Take a stance!]
This would help us to expedite the process of the leaders of Zimbabwe agreeing on what to do about their country. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Madam Speaker, one would have expected the President to have been part of the meeting of the SADC security troika, which took place in Swaziland recently to discuss, among other things, the serious political and security crisis in Zimbabwe.
Given the central role that the hon President plays as a mediator, would the President care to share with us the reason or reasons why he didn't attend such a critically important meeting? Also, given the results of the election in Zimbabwe on 29 March 2008, when the MDC defeated ZANU-PF by a clear majority in the vote for parliamentary seats and became the majority party in parliament, and with Morgan Tsvangirai's victory over Mr Robert Mugabe in the presidential election, on what basis, Mr President, does the South African government continue to refer to Mr Morgan Tsvangirai as the leader of the opposition and Mr Robert Mugabe and his Zanu-PF regime as the governing party of Zimbabwe, when they have already been defeated in the first election? [Applause.]
Well done!
Madam Speaker, the issue of Zimbabwe is obviously - and all of us agree on this - a very serious matter indeed, and I really do wish people would treat it seriously. [Interjections.]
Hoor wie praat! [Look who's talking!]
Now, the SADC troika, the troika of the organ dealing with politics, security and defence, is made up of Angola, Swaziland and Tanzania. Those are the members of the troika; South Africa is not a member of the troika. It was precisely because of that. Also, the Chair of the troika, Angola, did not attend the meeting, which is why it was held in Swaziland, because Swaziland is the Deputy Chair.
His Majesty, King Mswati III, called me twice and spoke to me about the meeting. He didn't invite us, because we are not members of the troika. He called me twice after the meeting to brief me about its outcome. He didn't invite us, wasn't expecting us, and I'm not quite sure why you would suggest that we should have been there. [Laughter.]
As the hon Mncwango would imagine, the discussions that are taking place relating to the way forward in Zimbabwe must indeed respect the outcome of the 29 March elections. I am quite sure the hon Mncwango would expect that to be the case, and it is the case. So I want to allay his fears that there is anybody who is in any way trying to detract from the critical importance and relevance of the outcome of the 29 March elections with regard to whatever else might happen in Zimbabwe in the future. There is nobody who is suggesting that the results of these elections should be ignored.
I am quite sure that the hon Mncwango knows that as of now the House of Assembly has 99 MDC Tsvangirai members, 97 Zanu-PF members, 10 MDC Mutambara members and one Independent. They have not been sworn in and the reason they have not been sworn in is because, according to the constitution of Zimbabwe, the members of parliament would be sworn in after the President has been elected. That is what the constitution says and that is why they have not been sworn in.
Within 21 days!
That is how their House of Assembly is constituted. There are three outstanding seats, because the candidates in those seats died before the elections were held, so they are going to have three by-elections. They are supposed to take place tomorrow. That is how that House is constituted and that will indicate some of the challenges, because none of the parties has an outright majority in that House of Assembly.
The elected members of the Senate are 30 Zanu-PF senators, 24 MDC Tsvangirai senators, and 6 MDC Mutambara senators. Its 30:30. Now the constitution of Zimbabwe, very much like our own here, says that the President ceases to be President when he or she hands over power to the newly-elected President. I am mentioning these things, hon M Mncwango, because I am saying that all of us agree that the Zimbabwe matter is serious. Therefore I think we need to deal with it seriously.
Familiarity with all of these details, which is important, would give you some indication of what the leaders of Zimbabwe have to do to address what is, in fact, a complex matter in order to arrive at a stable solution that is going to take their country forward. I am glad to say that at least the leaders of Zimbabwe are approaching this matter in that way. Thank you.
Mr President, I hope my question qualifies as a follow-up. The SADC countries mandated you to mediate in Zimbabwe. Was it right for your mediation efforts to co-exist with sanctions imposed by Britain and America? Sanctions on developing countries are the worst form of violence and genocide.
In our opinion, stability will come to Zimbabwe through peaceful means, not through bullies and warmongers, whose people are not suffering or dying in Zimbabwe. Thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Speaker, the hon Pheko, I am sure, you will be aware of the fact that the SADC summit in March last year, which took the decision to ask us to carry out this facilitation role, did indeed ask for the lifting of sanctions against Zimbabwe. That hasn't happened, but that was the view of SADC and it hasn't changed.
Hopefully the agreement that we hope is going to come from the leaders of Zimbabwe about their country would then also create the conditions for those sanctions to be lifted. It is indeed a very important element in terms of what needs to be done to address the challenge of the economic recovery of Zimbabwe and to impact positively on the lives of the people.
What I am saying is that, given the actuality, the reality of the situation that we face, my own view is that this matter of sanctions will only be addressed in the aftermath of an agreement that the Zimbabwean leaders might arrive at. Thank you.
Government's role in fostering social cohesion and the creation of a caring society
10. Mr H P Maluleka (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
What is the Government doing to mobilise all sectors of the society in pursuit of the goal of fostering social cohesion and the creation of a caring society? NO1708E
Madam Speaker, the promotion of social cohesion and the creation of a caring society have indeed been and continue to be areas of priority focus for the government. A critical part of this relates to the responsibility of government to spearhead the transformation of society. It includes the following: a social and economic development agenda, especially the eradication of poverty; increasing our rates of economic growth; the elimination of inequality; and ensuring equitable access to social and economic resources for all South Africans.
In this regard, through the Budget Vote debates, the Presidency and the Ministers have accounted to the House on the ongoing measures aimed at ensuring shared economic growth and the acceleration of and improvement of the efforts towards the achievement of the goal of a better life for all.
Indeed, part of the challenge to foster social cohesion is that the economy of our country should be owned, controlled and managed by all sectors in all sections of the South African nation. This means that we should improve the pace and quality of the delivery of services in a manner that is befitting of and addresses the issue of human dignity. This challenge also relates to the need to interact continually with communities in various ways - such as through the izimbizo programme, the Presidential Working Groups, Nedlac and so on - in order to forge the partnerships that we need and that are critical to the achievement of the goal of social cohesion. Furthermore, government has undertaken various campaigns working with structures of civil society in order to promote value systems of a caring and tolerant society and to improve the moral and ethical behaviour of all South Africans. These campaigns are done in collaboration with institutions such as those representing the faith communities and other structures of civil society.
I am referring here also to such issues as the Moral Regeneration Movement, the National Anti-Corruption Campaign and other campaigns focusing on various forms of crime, drug and alcohol abuse, and women and child abuse. And, indeed, as the hon member knows, these are carried out not only at national but also at provincial and local government levels.
We have also been very pleased with the initiative taken by the Minister of Education for all of us to debate the matter of a pledge to be taken by learners. Indeed, we believe this must apply to more than just the learners because it assists us to define ourselves and to say what it is that unites us as a nation. Clearly, we have to continue to address these matters in our educational curricula to see to what extent they contribute to all of this.
A matter, which is going to arise just now, about geographic and place names is one of these matters, again, which continues to be an area that we should attend to in order to address the matter of national and social cohesion. There are also other programmes, for instance those directed at young people, such as the National Youth Service and those for the encouragement of sports activities, which are also very important in this regard.
In short, this challenge of the creation of a caring society cuts across all government programmes and is demonstrated through such programmes as service delivery around housing, electricity, water, and sanitation for the poor; indigent policies of the different spheres of government; social grants; the rolling out of health services to the poor; and special dispensations for children, the elderly, pregnant women and people with disabilities. All of these, and many others, are clear testimony to the fact that one of the central tasks of a democratic government is, and continues to be, the creation of a caring society.
In this regard, we need to emphasise that members and leaders of all the parties assembled here do indeed also have a responsibility to promote this social cohesion and ensure that together we do build a caring society.
The question that we must continue to pose to ourselves all the time is: As the collective leadership of this country, what are we ourselves doing, and are we doing enough, to mobilise all sectors of our population to foster that social cohesion, so that we join hands to build the caring society the hon Maluleke is addressing? Thank you.
Thank you for your response, Mr President. Taking into consideration the damage apartheid has caused our country and its people, the ANC appreciates the fact that a lot of success has been recorded since the dawn of our democracy. We acknowledge the fact that we still have some work to do.
We also believe that the building of social cohesion and the creation of a caring society are not single events. This is ongoing work that needs the collective effort of society as a whole and - as you rightly said, Mr President - of the political parties that are sitting in this House and not only government, because some parties in this House see this as the sole responsibility of the ANC-led government.
In the light of the coming elections, what advice would you give, Mr President, to parties in this House, because these are matters that have attracted a lot of political posturing in this House? Thank you.
Well, I would not be able to comment on what's been happening in the House. I had thought that the issues the hon member was raising about social cohesion, a caring society and so on were matters that are common, or should be common, to the agenda of all of the parties. I think that even if you take our Constitution, broadly speaking, that this is what it indeed seeks to do - that we should all of us build this kind of society. When I saw the question, hon member, I was a bit worried about it, because it asked, "What is the government doing to mobilise all sectors of the society?" I was saying that, sure, government must do what it can, but this is a national challenge that faces not just government as, indeed, you say, hon member.
Really, I would hope that all of the parties in the House would see it as their responsibility also to foster that social cohesion - because what is it to build a united, democratic, nonracial South Africa if it is not to address these matters of social cohesion and the construction of a caring society. Hopefully, hon member, when it comes to the appeal you have just made to all the other parties in the House, they will respond to it positively. Thanks, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon President, as the first citizen of our country you have the greatest responsibility to foster social cohesion and perpetuate a model to create a caring society. To achieve this, you have to portray values in line with transparency, accountability and clean governance.
In the light of this then, hon President, can you explain how your decision yesterday to extend the contract of suspended National Police Commissioner Jackie Selebi - a man charged with a variety of corruption charges - furthers the values, especially that of clean governance, and what message exactly you are sending out, or whether your decision was based clearly on being a caring friend, giving jobs to pals? [Interjections.]
Hon member, you of course realise that that is a totally new question. However, the President is at liberty to comment.
Not only is it totally new, Madam Speaker - and I'm really, really surprised - but the hon member has made a determination that the courts have not made. The fact that somebody is charged in this country does not mean that that person is guilty. Now, we all like to refer to the principle of innocent until proven guilty, but the hon Kalyan clearly has already determined guilt in this case.
What happened, as I'm sure the hon member knows, is that the National Director of Public Prosecutions said a few months ago that they were going to arrest and charge the National Commissioner of Police. As we had agreed with him, he needed to alert me to that because we also had to deal with matters that would impact on national security. Therefore we gave Jackie Selebi extended leave to allow for that court case and appointed an acting national commissioner.
That court case is outstanding. I do not know when it will be heard. The issue that then arose concerned his contract, obviously. Indeed, the hon member is quite right: We have extended it for a year. We have not, unfortunately, come to the determination that the hon member has arrived at, that because National Commissioner Jackie Selebi is charged, he is guilty and therefore that it is incorrect to extend his contract. [Interjections.]
So, no, we are not going to proceed on the presumption of guilt in this or any other case. We'll continue to respect the principle that people are innocent until proven guilty. Thanks, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]
Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'm pleased that the President has mentioned the education curriculum as one of the factors to foster social cohesion. In terms of this social cohesion, does the President believe that the preservation of a balanced history record does contribute to social cohesion? If so, how does the President view the current Grade 12 history book titled In Search of History, published by the Oxford University Press of South Africa, which distorts the role played and contribution made by the leader of the IFP in the liberation struggle in South Africa? I thank you.
Hon member, again, this is such a specific question that it is a totally different question. If you were raising the general principle, I would understand. However, again, the President is at liberty to reply.
I must say thank you very much, Madam Speaker, to the hon member for suggesting that I must read this Grade 12 history book. I will, hon member. I haven't read it. I didn't know that it had references like that. I certainly will read it and maybe I can then tell you later what I think. [Applause.]
Hon De Lille? [Interjections.]
Stilte! [Silence!] [Laughter.] Madam Speaker, I agree with the President that we all have a responsibility. The Constitution places responsibility and obligations on both government and the opposition parties because poverty knows no political affiliation in our country. I think it is totally wrong for people just to dismiss everybody as not trying to build this social cohesion. We are trying, Mr President, in our own small ways.
Many a Minister here can attest to it that I have had meetings with many of them on many crucial issues in order to build that social cohesion. I think we must stop blaming and stop pointing fingers, and really get to a point where we can have a summit or sit down together with government and with the Ministers and work out the "how?" part. Because it is only once President Mbeki has challenged me: "Patricia, do this; Patriot Patricia, do this," and I'm not doing it that then they can say, "Mr President, they are not trying." Certainly, on the part of the ID, we are trying. Thank you.
I must say she has spoken like a patriot, Madam Speaker. [Laughter.] This is very good. I'm really very glad to hear that. Perhaps in the context of the discussion that was agreed to which had been called for by the hon Holomisa, we can then do the work that the hon De Lille is proposing. I would also want to agree that we should recognise positive work that is being done by other people where this work is being done. But congratulations, hon De Lille, the patriot! [Laughter.] Thanks, Madam Speaker.
Implications of decision of eThekwini Metro Council to rename Mangosuthu highway
11. Mr M A Mncwango (IFP) asked the President of the Republic:
Whether, with reference to his reply to Question 9 for oral reply on 31 May 2007, the decision of the eThekwini Metro Council to rename Mangosuthu highway to Griffiths Mxenge, promotes reconciliation and nation-building; if so, how?