Hon Koos van der Merwe!
Hon Koos van der Merwe! But it raises the question of how honourable he is when I raise this point. He loves saying that he has been in Parliament for over 30 years. It is clear that he is unreconstructed. Once again it is the "rooi gevaar" - the SACP is behind the ANC!
I wish, hon Jeremy Cronin, that we were behind the ANC in the way they make out; that we were able to do the things we want to do; and that you or Blade Nzimande would be the President of this country. Remember that "swart gevaar" in the old era was very close to "rooi gevaar"! So, we must be very careful. [Applause.]
Dianne Kohler-Barnard says ... [Interjections.] I won't respond because I don't have the time.
I want to stress this that prosecutors are involved, but they are in the NPA. They will work with investigators as necessary. Moreover, let me stress that the legal officers within the SAPS who are currently there are meant to be beefed up. They are meant to advise investigators to ensure that when they proceed with investigations, they are legally tenable and will not be challenged in court.
May I also say, before I am forced to end ... I wish I had more time, Madam Deputy Speaker, because really there are so many misrepresentations here that I have another half an hour of notes to use and draw on. But let me thank the department officials and Maggie Sotyu in particular for the co-operation we had. I think we don't need two separate committees anymore, Chief Whip. Let us make them a single committee on safety and security, constitutional development and justice. We don't have any turf issues.
May I also, on behalf of Pieter Groenewald, thank myself for giving him an extra two minutes.
Finally, let me say that we must be very clear. We are simply not going to allow our wonderful country to be handed over to organised criminals - absolutely not. [Applause.] You can bet your life on it, it is not going to happen. Do you know why? Mainly, you have to trust us. The main victims of organised crime, corruption and crime in general are the working class and the poor. For once I am putting on my Marxist hat - I am a Marxist, unapologetically. I have been one since I was 16 years old. [Interjections.] I cannot allow organised crime. Who are the main beneficiaries of crime? It is mainly the bourgeoisie and the capitalist class. Of course they have their underlings. So, I cannot agree to this.
Order! Hon member, your time has expired.
There are six seconds left, but that is okay. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Madam Speaker, the DA calls for a division.
Hon members, I don't think I need to hear those kinds of voices that are saying "what about the amendments". Let me refer the House to its own Rules - Rule 254(3). This Rule is very clear about when we entertain amendments. Nobody said we were going to stop that.
A division has been called. I just want to go back to the earlier problems we had in the House related to the voting machines. We will then take a break in order to allow the technical team of Parliament to look at what happened earlier on. So, instead of ringing the bells for 5 minutes, which was the initial intention, we will ring the bells for 20 minutes.
Question put: That the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill be read a second time.
Order! We allowed a 20-minute break in order to attempt to fix the technical problems we have. Hon members, I wish to indicate that given the technical problems that occurred earlier on, we asked the technical team to look at the matter. But we have not yet fixed the problem that was there earlier on. We have some seats that are affected. We would like to say that when we reach the voting stage, those members who are not able to vote should come forward to cast their votes so that we don't have any errors. [Interjections.]
It looks like we are going to have a long day. The main system is locked. It just locked itself.
Madam Speaker, we propose a secret ballot.
We managed to get our main system running, but the other members will then come forward so that we can record their votes.
Madam Speaker, don't you think it would be a good idea for them to go home - those people who can't vote?
I think it would be a wonderful idea if you would go home now and allow us to do some work. [Interjections.]
Thank you. I will do that.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 252: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gogotya, N J; Gololo, C L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, C D; Khauoe, M K; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe-Casaburi, I F; Matsomela, M J J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbete, B; Mbili, M E; Mdaka, N M; Mdladlana, M M S; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ndlazi, Z A; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, M J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Nyambi, A J; Nyembe, K K M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rwexana, S P; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; Selau, J G; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Siboza, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Sizani, S; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala- Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.
NOES - 63: Bekker, H J; Bhengu, M J; Bici, J; Blanch, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Botha, A; Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Cupido, H B; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Ditshetelo, P H K; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; George, D T; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Holomisa, B H; Hoosen, M H; Jenner, I E; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; Kganyago, N M; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lebenya, P; Lee, T D; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mpontshane, A M; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A H; Nkabinde, N C; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Rabinowitz, R; Roopnarain, U; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau, S N; Simmons, S; Singh, N; Smuts, M; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zikalala, C N Z.
National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill accordingly read a second time.
Hon members, there was a little confusion earlier on as to where amendments have to be placed. There were no amendments for the earlier Bill. The amendments proposed by Dr Delport are for the Bill that we are going to be dealing with now.
Madam Speaker, I put the amendments.
Amendment to the South African Police Service Amendment Bill by Dr J T Delport, as printed on the Order Paper (p 504) put, namely:
Amendment of the long title
1. To amend the long title, as follows: