Hon Minister, will you just take your seat? Many members are leaving the Chamber - can you do so quietly? You may remain at the podium, hon Minister. Will members leave quietly, so that we can allow the hon Minister to introduce the debate? You may proceed, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson, I would like to say to the coastal communities, fishers and representatives of all fishing industry stakeholders, today marks a very special day in the history of the South African fishing industry. It is the day on which this House, across all political parties, can participate in delivering freedom from poverty to thousands and thousands of humble, patient small-scale fisherfolk from more than 160 coastal communities who have their ancestral roots along our country's 3 000 km long coastline. It is in our hands to change the lives of these thousands of breadwinners who support their families by their livelihoods - 50 000 downstream dependants and breadwinners. Today is the day on which we can give new hope to these families and communities and demonstrate the real meaning of the word "freedom", the freedom that we acquired in 1994.
These coastal communities have been robbed of their ancestral right of access to a natural resource on their doorstep. It is shameful and unthinkable that communities are starving, whilst they live alongside the abundance of life in our country's oceans. Decades ago, our nation's natural marine resource endowments were given to a handful of the privileged, at the expense of the majority. This resulted in untold misery and perpetual hardship being experienced in the fishing communities that form the very backbone of our highly successful and lucrative fishing industry as it stands today.
Since ushering in our long-awaited democratic order in 1994, government has succeeded in bringing about significant levels of transformation. At the time of the promulgation of the Marine Living Resources Act, Act 18 of 1998, we were painfully aware of the need to restructure the fishing industry in order to address historical imbalances and to achieve equity in all branches of the fishing industry. This is required of us under the founding objectives and principles of the Marine Living Resources Act, so that we may all overcome the discriminatory barriers of the Natives Land Act, Act 27 of 1913, which restricted the rights of the majority to both land and marine resources.
Today we have the opportunity to correct yet another scar of the legacy of apartheid in a revolutionary manner, by expanding subsistence and interim relief fishing rights to small-scale fishers and community-based fishing rights allocations, with the view of empowering coastal communities and not only individuals.
Understandably, there are those who do not support the extension of fishing rights to the small-scale fishers and communities.
Daar is diegene wat nie eens 10% van wat hulle alreeds het vir die armes wil gee nie. Daarom weet ons as jy 'n vriend van die armes is, sal jy nooit 'n vriend van die rykes wees nie. [Applous.] [There are those who are not willing to give even 10% of what they already have to the poor. Therefore, you know that if you are a friend of the poor, you will never be a friend of the rich. [Applause.]]
Over the past few weeks, they have sought to discourage us from continuing on this path of community empowerment. They have found new reasons why communities should not take part in an organised fashion. They have even found reasons to call co-operatives unconstitutional. What more do you expect?
In the pursuit of social justice we are determined to open up the fishing industry in order to benefit communities as organised formations such as co- operatives. We are determined to make a real difference and to change the fortunes of our fishing communities, making it possible for them to take part in the lucrative fishing industry.
Today, in pursuit of unity in action towards socioeconomic freedom, we are introducing in the House the Marine Living Resources Amendment Bill, which is purposefully designed to fast-track amendments to the Act. It will recognise the bona fide right of coastal community fishers to access a sustainable livelihood from our own natural and marine resources, legislatively and officially, for the first time in the history of our country.
We call upon this House and the entire nation this House to support the Bill so that, collectively, we can remove the scourge of poverty, apartheid, inequality and unemployment. The passing of this Bill will be a tangible deliverable to our people, as we prepare to celebrate 20 years of freedom and democracy in our country.
It comes as we are speaking about food and nutrition security, when the President has launched the Fetsa Tlala food production intervention, and as the Deputy President is leading the debate for vulnerable workers, like farm workers and fishing communities. With Fetsa Tlala, we are calling for an end to hunger. Ugqatso silufezile. [The battle against poverty has been won.] [Applause.]
Die rottang is geknak. [The cane is broken.]
We have suffered indignity. We have suffered insults. But we will not retreat.
We support our National Development Plan: Vision 2030. Our strategies, according to the National Development Plan, will have to be developed for economic co-operation, to give poor producers greater collective market power in value chains, while allowing them to negotiate improved levels of access to markets on better terms of participation.
This recommendation will deal decisively with chronic hunger. No longer will coastal communities go to bed hungry whilst they have fish right at their doorstep. [Applause.] Our revision of this ...
Chairperson, on a point of order. Mr Frolick, you are in charge of the House. Please, maintain the dignity of the House.
Order, hon members. Our guests in the gallery, should also come to order. The guests in the gallery are reminded not to participate in the proceedings.
Ons versoek u dus om nie hande te klap of deel te neem aan die verrigtinge wat tans plaasvind nie. [We therefore request of you not to applaud or contribute to the proceedings that are taking place.]
You may continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: I am encouraged by the overwhelming support from both business and labour, from fishing organisations and communities, and from the many interested parties who have committed themselves selflessly and unrelentingly to the delivery of the Small-Scale Fisheries Policy approved by Cabinet, which I know will be approved by this House. I want to thank those who contributed positively to this process and who worked tirelessly to add value to the lives of small- scale coastal community fishers.
This is a momentous occasion in the lives of the poorest of the poor in coastal fishing communities, when we can change the course and direction of the lives of our people, individually and irrevocably, and when we can end the curse of apartheid and of our oppressive history in the fishing industry. We have the opportunity to end this now and change it into a positive reality so that all may benefit from this very moment on. I urge you to do so, regardless of your political standing.
I thank those in the department for all the support they gave to poor coastal communities when all the odds were stacked against them. I thank the Deputy President for always being willing to listen when the odds were stacked even higher, and when our names were dragged through the mud and our reputations were tarnished. I repeat: If you are a friend to the poor, you will never be a friend to the rich. Ke a leboga. Enkosi kakhulu. Siyabonga. [Thank you.] [Applause.]
Hon members, before I call the next speaker to the podium, I just want to repeat to our guests in the gallery that they must not participate in the proceedings. You are here to observe the proceedings.
Hon House Chair, on a point of order: I just want to say that there have been repeated calls on the audience to behave in accordance with the Rules of the Assembly. I would like to ask you to implement the Rules of the National Assembly.
I take it that ... [Interjections.]
Chairperson, on a point of order: We must make it clear to the people of South Africa that they are welcome in our Parliament. Perhaps we should explain the Rules of the House in some detail so that they do not feel this House of democracy excludes the people of South Africa. [Applause.]
Hon members, I just wish to repeat to our guests in the gallery that the elected members who are representing them are sitting here below and they are the ones who actively participate.
Hulle neem deel aan die verrigtinge van die Huis. U is hier om te kyk dat u verteenwoordigers besluite neem wat in u guns is. Daarom verwag ons dat u vir die lede wat hier onder is 'n geleentheid gee om deel te neem, en u is slegs hier om waar te neem. Ek hoop almal verstaan ons nou. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[They participate in the proceedings of this House. You are here to ensure that your representatives take decisions that are in your favour. Therefore, we expect you to afford the members of this House the opportunity to participate. You are only here to observe. I trust everyone understands this now.]
House Chair, I would wish to say to those that are celebrating that perhaps we should celebrate elsewhere, not here. House Chairperson; fishermen and fisherwomen; the Deputy President, His Excellency Comrade Kgalema Motlanthe; the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, Comrade Tina Joemat-Pettersson; Ministers and Deputy Ministers present here; colleagues; officials from our able Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, led by its brand-new Director-General, Prof Edith Vries; hard-working parliamentary officials from the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, Mrs Albertina Kakaza, Mrs Ntombi Luzipho, Ms Nokuzola Mgxashe, Ms Ntombi Qwabe, Mr Nhlanhla Ginindza, Mr Foster Mohale and Ms Yolanda Sili; captains in the fishing industry who might perhaps be here; comrades and fellow South Africans, I must submit from the word go that the ANC supports this Bill. [Applause.]
Our committee, through a robust public hearing process that involved our coastal communities, fishermen and women, the commercial industry, and academics and legal practitioners, unanimously declared that the country's wealth shall be shared among those who work with it.
Being an integrated and coherent socioeconomic policy framework, our Reconstruction Development Programme sought to mobilise all our people and our country's resources towards the final eradication of the colonial apartheid system and the building of a democratic, nonracial and nonsexist future. Within the policy framework represented by the RDP, the ANC continues to develop detailed positions and legislative programmes, this being one among many, to rid the 361 and 65 years respectively of colonial and apartheid legacies of written and unwritten rules, regulations and laws.
Consistent with the RDP framework, the primary objective of the Small-Scale Fisheries Policy adopted by Cabinet in September 2012 is the upliftment of impoverished coastal communities through improved access to marine resources and the sustainable management of those resources through appropriate strategies.
Mandiphinde ndithi, sithe gqolo sigxininisa kuyo inkqubo-sikhokelo ye-RDP. Oyena ndoqo walo mgaqo-nkqubo kukuzama ukuhlangabezana nesigqibo esathathwa yiKhabhinethi kunyaka ophelileyo, kwinyanga kaSeptemba wama we-2012, ngeenjongo zokuzama ukukhuthaza nokususa abantu bakuthi abaphaya kwiindawo ezingaselunxwemeni ukuze baphucule iimpilo zabo ngokuthi baxhamle kwiintlanzi nokulawula loo mithombo leyo ngendlela efana nale sikuyo njengokuba sithetha. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[Let me reiterate that we continue to focus on the RDP framework. The primary objective of this framework is to try to implement a decision taken by Cabinet last year, in September 2012, to ensure that coastal communities are uplifted, that they benefit from marine resources and that these resources are managed in a sustainable manner, as is the case currently.]
During May 2012 public hearings on fisheries transformation were held. Among other observations and resolutions that came out are the following. There should be a fishing charter that would see greater representation of black people - when I say black, I include Africans, coloureds and Indians - in the mainstream economy of the fishing industry, and a sea accident fund similar to the Road Accident Fund should be established to ensure that workers who die or get injured at sea are compensated accordingly.
In short, the amendments seek to implement the Small-Scale Fisheries Policy that Cabinet adopted in September 2012. These relate to the subsistence fishers, now amended as small-scale fishers, who will continue to be exploited until the implementation of this Act; hence its urgency, as our people cannot continue to be exploited in the manner they are being exploited.
Taking a cue from what Nkosi Zwelivelile Mandela said, let me say that President Jomo Kenyatta of Kenya said:
When the Missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the Missionaries had the Bible. They taught how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.
How one would wish this could be the same in today's times, where we all pray and the great-great-grandsons and daughters get their Bibles back, and we have our land and fishing rights back without having to go through what we are going through today. [Applause.] As we commemorate 100 years of land dispossession, our coastal communities are equally joining these commemorations, but they are also saying never, never and never again shall the fishing rights be taken away by colonisers. [Applause.]
What this Natives Land Act, Act 27 of 1913, did was to restrict black people from buying, leasing and selling land, except in the scheduled areas, which were referred to as reserves, whilst white people were prohibited from owning land in those areas. The result of these land dispossessions led to millions of black people's being uprooted from their ancestral land, including coastal lands, with cruelty and without compensation.
This allocation of fishing rights to co-operatives and small-scale fishermen through this legislation we are adopting sets in motion a process where black people will participate directly in the mainstream fishing economic activity in our country. In so doing we will be demolishing 100 years of land dispossession and its socioeconomic impacts, hectare by hectare and ton by ton. In amending this legislation, our ANC-led government is indeed on course in bringing about a better life for all.
As this industry continues to be seasonal, a multispecies approach gives credence to the need to provide our black people with more opportunities to catch more fish for consumption and, equally important, to trade. The legislation seeks to allocate fishing rights to eight sectors. They are the Demersal Shark; KwaZulu-Natal Prawn Trawl Traditional Line Fish; Hake Handline; Squid; Tuna Pole and Line; White Mussel; and Oyster Fisheries sectors.
In the interests of our developmental objective of bringing a better life for all our people, collaboration among departments has been yielding positive results. The training of our coastal communities NGOs like Coastal Links and Masifundise, along with the Department of Trade and Industry, and provision of vessels by the DTI have assisted our people to ready themselves for this fishing rights allocation process. Through the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme the small-scale fisheries and co-operative programmes have an extended benefit, as CASP is now extending its mandate to fisheries.
Rehabilitation of our fishing harbours is another example that demonstrates the department's commitment to growing and transforming the fisheries sector of our economy. It cannot be business as usual for our fishermen and women to continue dying in sea waters like flies. With this continuation of sea water carnage, relevant departments of government must, with urgency, begin to put in place a sea water accident fund like you have the Road Accident Fund. With the way our fishermen and women die at sea, it is as if nothing has happened at all in our country. One death is one too many. However, ours continues to be a caring ANC-led government.
In conclusion, as we commemorate 100 years of dispossession of land and coastal lands, nobody can disagree with the ANC that we have indeed done a great deal in the process of undoing those 100 years in 20 years. [Applause.] Hectare by hectare and ton by ton we are improving our people's lives. We started this process in 2005, of changing from a year-on-year quota system to medium-term fishing rights allocations. We are now taking this process to new heights by getting our coastal fishing communities to mainstream fishing economic activities through their co-operatives and small-scale fisheries.
Once again, the ANC supports this Bill. Thank you for your attention. [Applause.]
Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it constitutional and parliamentary for us to refer to any section of the population of our country today as colonisers? I would like to advise you to study the Hansard. It is important that the examples we set today do not lead this country into a disaster tomorrow. I raise this question because I would like you to make a ruling on it.
Hon member, your question is noted. While we must be mindful that the debate on this piece of legislation is political, we will have a look at the Hansard and, if there is a need to, we will make a ruling.
Chairperson, on a point of order: If I heard correctly, one of the speakers from the ANC said, looking at the people here, "You have stolen our land." I am asking you to rule on that.
Hon member, I do not recall that comment being made, but we will look at the Hansard text. In regard to the debate that is currently taking place, I cannot recall that comment being made.
House Chairperson, on a point of order: I would like to find out, even before you go to the Hansard, whether the hon Lekota is denying that there were colonisers in this country.
Hon members, no. Hon member, would you please take your seat? Unfortunately, this is not a question and answer session. We are in the middle of a debate, and that is why I am going to recognise the next speaker, the hon Van Dalen.
House Chair, the DA says that fishermen should be given their constitutional rights. It is clear that the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and her department are playing political games with the lives of ordinary people. These are our small-scale fishermen who are suffering and bearing the brunt of extreme exploitation. These are families whose livelihoods depend on fishing. They are sick and tired of being part of a political game. You see, this department's draconian laws have made these fishermen criminals and poachers.
These people are a forgotten people from the sea. All they want is to have the sea breeze on their skin, to catch fish and rock lobster, and to feed their families. And, if some of the catch is left, they would like to sell it so that they can send their children to school and, if they are sick, take them to hospital. These fishermen are really not asking too much. They are not asking for money or property; they are asking for an opportunity to have access to the sea.
This brings me to the reason we are here today: to pass a Bill amending the Marine Living Resources Act, which will give these fishermen recognition under law, with a right to fish.
It is well documented that for two years we pleaded with Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson to bring this Bill to the committee for a wholesale workover. Our pleading fell on deaf ears. Then, in September this year, three months after the deadline for Bills to come to this House had passed, the Bill was admitted as a matter of urgency.
What is worse is that the Minister then came to the committee with guns blazing and, in a derogatory way, launched an attack on the committee. She screamed at the top of her voice, making utterances to the effect that this incompetent and useless committee had not passed any legislation in their term and were failures. She lambasted the DA, as well as her own ANC comrades, for being the reason her department had to work in a constitutional and legislative vacuum. In her view, we were the reason her department was failing.
I submit that it is the Minister's stubbornness and inability to see it in any other way than her own that has landed us in this position. One day she will have to answer for that.
That attack on a committee of Parliament was an attack on our integrity as parliamentarians. We asked the chairperson of the committee to protect us, but he failed us too.
We want it to be put on record that the DA has been fighting to have this Bill passed, because we understand that the rights have to be allocated before the year's end. [Interjections.]
Order, hon members!
It seems as if the Minister was trying to blame the DA for blocking the Bill. The simple fact is that she knew the Bill would not be passed in time.
To add insult to injury, when I asked legitimate questions about the correct tagging of the Bill, I was accused of trying to block it. As a lawmaker, it is my obligation to the oath I took in this House that compels me to make sure that we pass good Bills which will pass constitutional muster. I was proven right, and the Bill was only tagged as a section 76 Bill last week.
This means that the Bill now has to go the various provinces for more consultation. I'm thus afraid that it will not be signed into law by the end of this year - which would have enabled the department to allocate the long-term fishing rights these people want - but rather only by the end of next year. It is like promising a child a sweet, but then only giving him the wrapper with no sweet inside. This is a disgrace, Minister!
We, the DA, demanded that our position be recorded regarding a clause that was inserted by hon Phaliso, who thought that it was better to define "marginalised people". The legal advisors advised against it. She insisted that it be put in, and then the chairperson made a ruling that it be done. The simple fact is that the phrase "and only marginalised groups" casts the net wide, which is more acceptable in law-making. The next point I want to make is that these fishing communities, through the Small-Scale Fishing Policy, will now be forced to belong to co- operatives. People have a constitutional right to freedom of association and freedom of choice. Therefore, it must be a choice, and not a prerequisite to get a right. Co-operatives also have bad track records in fishing communities. Hon Hill-Lewis will talk about that some more.
Furthermore the Bill will change the status of current subsistence fishermen - about 6 000 people in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal - to small-scale fishermen. This has serious implications, considering the significant number of subsistence quota holders, their isolated location, their inaccessibility to Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries control officials, and the lack of any legal, socioeconomic research into or analysis of what it would mean to migrate these quota holders into the small-scale fishermen category and force them into co-operatives. It is not feasible to simply remove the largest single recognised category of fishermen from the Statute Book without a concrete plan to assist them going forward.
Today the DA reiterates its support for the empowerment of fishermen and fishing communities, but strongly urges this House and its counterparts in the NCOP not only to do the job of empowering fishermen, but also to do it well. I implore the provinces, the department and the Minister to put aside all political interests and to do what is best for the fishermen. What is best for the fishermen is for this Bill to be passed without any further delay, and therefore we support it.
The DA will continue to represent and champion the rights of the fishing sector. Like other sectors, the fishing sector contributes to the wellbeing of this country. They are our people. Let us give them not only our support, but also the freedom to exercise their constitutional rights and remain law-abiding patriots of this country. Surely this is not too much to ask? Thank you. [Applause.]
House Chairperson, yesterday was the commemoration of the death of Vuyisile Mini, a leader of the workers and a leader of the poor. We celebrate his tireless struggle to truthfully fight for the plight of those who do not have. [Interjections.] Vuyisile Mini was a leader of the people of South Africa, not a sectoral Vuyisile Mini. [Interjections.]
Cope supports the Bill. We support the Bill, but not because it was a cake given to our people by Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson. We support it because of the tireless struggle of the people sitting in the gallery and those outside, who took the South African government to court after it passed the Marine Living Resources Bill in 1998. They said to government that what it had done in passing the 1998 Bill was to exclude them, the small-scale fishermen. It was they who took this government to court, and they won, and government was instructed by the court that there must be a plan and an amendment of this Bill.
Therefore, "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories", as Cabral said. It was not the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries that brought this about; it was brought about by those people sitting there, who stood up and fought for their rights. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The transformation ... [Interjections.]
Order! Order, please!
The transformation of fisheries in this country is pivotal for two reasons. The poor people of our country who live in coastal towns were put in a position where they did not have a relationship with the environment in which they live. Today, as a result of their fights and struggles in the coastal towns, they are being rewarded by all of us. To them we say that we approve of the fact that they stood up for themselves and fought those who did not understand the lives of people living in coastal environments.
It was they who, in the public hearings, put it into context that it was not only about exploiting the marine species, but also about conserving the marine species in order for generations to come to live with them. It was not only about eating the fish, thinking that people should grab as much fish as they could, but also about their understanding that some of these species in the coastal environment were endangered. The people sitting in that gallery understand sustainable development and the co-existence of two species.
We must also stop this habit of using our people and their plight on the eve of elections. Our people live in poverty, and we must not just rush into doing things for which we do not have a plan. You must tell the people the truth. It is not true that come tomorrow or next year June Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson will have a clear plan for implementation. She is promising the people certain things. Don't raise the expectations of our people. What we are doing today is that we are laying a foundation to make sure ...
House Chair, I rise on a point of order: The hon member is insinuating that the Minister has lied and misled the House by promising to implement the Bill once it is completed. I want you to rule him out of order and instruct him to withdraw that statement.
Hon member, we will consult the Hansard and come back to the House.
We should put our plan in place for our people to understand ... [Interjections.]
Order, hon members! Order!
... that it is only a clear plan from the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries that will ensure that those poor fishermen of Hermanus and Gansbaai have the support system they need for their boats when they wake up tomorrow.
She cannot even run the marine vessels that we have, the marine vessels that are supposed to monitor poaching and to collect data regarding the available species. Yet she thinks that she will, by tomorrow, be able to achieve implementation and keep the promise she made to our people. She will not. We need more than R400 million for this legislation to work. She does not have that.
What we are saying is that we want a Minister who is capable of addressing the plight of those who do not have, and who will not promise them something on the eve of elections and create the impression that she cares. She does not care for them! [Applause.] In the past 10 years this legislation has not been passed. On the eve of elections, with their being just six months away, they are saying that things are going to be better. Don't lie to our people! Our people mean business. Our people need to live in a better way. They want a better life.
For a Minister who is unable even to address the issue of aqua-culture in our country - South Africa's aquaculture is 0,1% - to come here ...
House Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: the word "lie" has now surfaced for a second time. I suggest that the member honours the decorum of the House. If the hon member is saying that the Minister is lying, then that is not parliamentary, and we all know that.
Hon member, I heard that expression. Who were you referring to?
I was referring to its being far away from the truth.
Hon member, what are you saying?
I am saying that the things the Minister is promising our people are far away from the truth. [Interjections.]
Hon member, I asked you whether you were referring to the Minister. Then that is unparliamentary. You should withdraw that.
I am referring to the department. [Interjections.]
Hon member, don't waste your time. Withdraw that.
I submit that I made a mistake. I withdraw it. [Interjections.]
Hon member, please continue.
Aquaculture in this country alone out of Egypt, Kenya and many other countries - was 0,1%.
Hon House Chair, on a point of order: His time has expired, sir. [Interjections.]
Hon member, I'm not sure what clock you are following. [Laughter.] Let's rather rely on my clock. Continue, hon member - you have a few seconds.
This country is one of the worst performers as far as aquaculture farming is concerned. We are outshone, even by countries like Egypt, which is unstable, Kenya and Nigeria, because of the failure of Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson.
Moreover, the last four years alone this Minister has appointed seven directors-general. Fisheries alone is dysfunctional. She has declared her administration and her capacity to run agriculture and fisheries in this country defunct. Therefore, the people should not trust Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson. Thank you. [Applause.] [Time expired.]
Hon House Chair, I just want to say that the previous speaker spoke for the longest six minutes I have ever experienced in my life! [Laughter.]
Hon members, while it is very good to have a robust debate, I would, however, like to caution against your getting carried away.
Chair and hon members, this Bill seeks to open a new chapter for the previously disadvantaged communities living along our coastline, whilst not excluding those who are interested in the business of fishing inland.
The fishing industry provides a means by which people can change their lives for the better. However, when apartheid laws were applied, the communities living in the areas along the coasts were forcefully removed, leaving behind what they considered as their golden treasure, which was the ability to engage in fishing - the community members supported their families through fishing. Although it was not big business for them, they never struggled to put food on the table because of the easy access they had to the sea.
Through this Bill emerging fishermen have the opportunity to gain licences from the department for their small businesses. This will liberate those who have been roped in by commercial fishing companies as shareholders, but who have not been empowered with the skills to run a business. Despite being labeled shareholders, they are treated as mere employees, being used to front for the sake of BEE scores.
We should not allow the denuding of our scarce marine resources by unscrupulous pirate operators. This is something we all agree on, but legislation must be crafted in such a way that we do not have small subsistence fishermen, for whom fishing is not only a source of food or protein for their families, but also a source of income for them, put at a disadvantage.
This Bill deserves the support of all parties who believe in the principle that all people shall share in the natural resources of our land. I regard this Bill as one that will emancipate those communities who rely on fishing as their main source of generating income. The IFP will support this Bill. [Applause.]
Voorsitter en agb lede, ons is almal baie bly om soveel vissermense vandag hier saam te h. Hierdie debat is 'n wonderlike en belangrike geleentheid vir elke vissersgemeenskap in Suid-Afrika, maar kom ons wees nou eerlik. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [Chairperson and hon members, we are all very happy to see so many fisherfolk with us today. This debate is a wonderful and important opportunity for all fishing communities in South Africa, but let us be honest.]
The Minister said today at her press conference just before this House met that fishing communities across South Africa would be able to look forward to a brighter Christmas. The fact is that nothing could be further from the truth. If the Minister had brought the Bill before Parliament when the DA first requested it 24 months ago, then Christmas for these ladies and gentlemen from the fishing communities would have been brighter, because the Bill would have been through the provincial process and would have been signed into law already.
However, the Minister brought the Bill here three months after the deadline for Bills to be processed in this House this year and, as a result, it will only be implemented at the end of next year at the earliest. [Interjections.] Minister, that is not the committee's fault, and that is not the DA's fault, and it is not the ANC members on your back benches' fault; that is your fault. [Interjections.] You have been the Minister for four and a half years ...
Order! Order, hon member! There is a point of order.
Chairperson, this is a misrepresentation. There is no such a thing as a deadline for the submission of Bills. [Interjections.]
Order! Please continue, hon member.
Well, the Minister brought the Bill in September, when she had been a Minister for four and a half years. So, that is very long after she should've brought it, and that's the truth. [Interjections.] There is no other reason for this failure, and the Minister should own up to it, and all South Africans, including those in the gallery, should know the truth about what happened to this Bill. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, let us talk about the issue of co-operatives. The hon Steyn and the hon Van Dalen did not argue that co-operatives themselves were unconstitutional, as the Minister has suggested in her speech. I am not sure if she heard them correctly. What they said was that forcing every fisherperson in South Africa to join co-operatives in order to get fishing rights is unconstitutional. That is quite a different point. You are forcing these people to join co-operatives when all they want to do is to be able to legally make a living. Now they have to deal with audited financial statements, members' interests, sharing of boats, annual general meetings, etc. [Interjections.] More than 90% of co-operatives in South Africa fail - more than 90%! We hope that in this sector the success rate will be higher, but the fact is that in order to make the success rate higher, co-operatives will need substantive support. The Minister has admitted today that she doesn't have the budget to support these new co-operatives. She has R100 million, and she needs R400 million to even begin to make this piece of legislation work. She said in response to the hon Steyn's question: "Don't worry; we will find the money." That is very, very hollow when you need R400 million to make things work. [Interjections.]
Order!
The Minister of Trade and Industry has distributed two or three fishing boats to co-operatives. That's not support. That's not going to reduce the 90% failure rate to something where these folk can have sustainable incomes over the long term. As always, those are just hollow, empty promises with absolutely no follow-up, and that's what this Bill is all about.
Chairperson, I just wanted to know if the hon Hill-Lewis would take a question. [Interjections.]
Order! Hon members, I think the hon Hill-Lewis can speak for himself. Hon member, will you take a question?
I'd be very happy to take a question, Chairperson.
Do you take offence when the Department of Trade and Industry offers support to small businesses?
No, I don't take offence. I just want it to be substantive instead of just style over substance. The Department of Trade and Industry goes and hands out three fishing boats to co-operatives and thinks that's going to solve the problems of small-scale fishing in South Africa. [Interjections.] It's nothing. It's an empty promise; that's all it is. [Interjections.]
Let's consider the failures here, Minister. Let's consider the failures. You failed to bring this Bill to the House on time. You have failed to find the budget to support this Bill, and you have forced the fishermen and women to join co-operatives that they don't need and don't necessarily want. That's the truth. [Interjections.]
You call yourself a "vriend van die armes," [friend of the poor] hon Minister. That's what you said in your speech. Well, as the hon Bhanga said, nothing could possibly be further from the truth. The truth is that there is only one person in this Parliament who fights for the rights of fishermen. There is only one person in that committee whom fights for the rights of fishermen, other than the hon member from the ANC who you've now taken out of the committee, and that is the hon Van Dalen. [Interjections.]
Order!
Even the ANC has recognised this. That's why they chucked you off the Northern Cape list, and that's why you had to come to the Western Cape!
Chairperson, hon members ...
... en agb lede van die publiek ... [Onhoorbaar.] Vir die eerste keer ... [... and hon members of the public ... [Inaudible.] For the first time ...]
Chairperson, on a point of order: A member is not allowed to communicate with people in the gallery. [Interjections.] This is not a public meeting.
Vir die eerste keer deur di wysigingswetsontwerp ... [Onhoorbaar.] [For the first time through this amending Bill ... [Inaudible.]
Hon member, I'm not holding you responsible, but the House Chair who was here before me did make it very clear to the audience that they were not allowed to participate. Hon member, you should not have done that yourself. Continue, please.
Daar was 'n aantal beperkings op visvangregte wat toegang vir kleinskaalvissers tot die tradisionele visvangterreine bemoeilik het - toegang wat arm gemeenskappe in staat sou stel om swaarder op die plaaslike hulpbronne vir die verkryging van goedere en dienste vir oorlewing te leun en om toegang tot betalende indiensneming te verkry. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Ms M N PHALISO: There were a number of restrictions on fishing rights which encumbered the access of small-scale fishermen to traditional fishing grounds - access which would have enabled poor communities to lean more heavily on local resources to obtain goods and services for survival and to gain access to paying employment.]
Now, through this Bill, there will be easy access to fishing grounds. The fishermen who have no income at all will manage to get the goods and services they need for their livelihoods or gain access to employment through relying on the local common resources. The ANC government will ensure that restrictions on fishing rights are replaced by easy access to fishing grounds. The fishing communities will also be capacitated to be able to process and trade their products.
At present, the most important contribution of small-scale fisheries to poverty alleviation is through the use of marine living resources, food security and the amendment of section 2 of the Marine Living Resources Act, Act 18 of 1998, which excludes women, youth and people with disabilities. It's a very important step towards rectifying the past prejudices against women, youth and people with disabilities, effectively seeking to roll back the legacy of the triple oppression under apartheid. [Applause.]
On 19 June 1913, the then racist colonial government of our land enacted the Black Land Act, which is one of the worst pieces of legislation ever known to mankind. This was diabolical, as it introduced a system of land tenure that inevitably deprived the vast majority of South Africans of their right to own land and enjoy open access to the bountiful natural resource endowments that our magnificent land and its two oceans offer.
The provisions of this Bill are the following:
the need to promote equitable access to and involvement in all aspects of the fishing industry and, in particular, to rectify past prejudice against women, the youth and persons living with disabilities; the need to recognise approaches to fisheries management which contribute to food security, socio-economic development and the alleviation of poverty; and
the need to recognise that fish may be allocated through a multispecies approach.
These amendments give the most vulnerable groups a chance to participate in the fishing industry in order to prove their capability of contributing to the economic growth of the country without prejudice.
The Bill also provides an opportunity to fishing communities to come together as groups to form co-operatives by the addition to the definition of "South African person" of the following paragraph:
... a co-operative registered in terms of the Co-operatives Act, 2005 of which all the members are South African citizens but, where any member is a juristic person, such person's principal place of business must be in the Republic ...
These two above amendments are the most important milestones towards achieving our objectives of a nonsexist, prosperous and united South Africa, where people are able to make decisions about their own development.
Ons weet uit ondervinding dat die meeste huishoudings wat in die visbedryf, veral die in ontwikkelende lande, betrokke is, nie op 'n ho inkomste kan reken nie en slegs daarop kan staatmaak om te oorleef. Daar moet dus aandag geskenk word aan die ontwikkeling en steun van kleinskaalvissers in gebiede soos Paternoster, Hondeklipbaai, Laingville, Elandsbaai, Houtbaai en Hamburg. Ek kan nog ander arm gemeenskappe noem.
Miskien is armoedeverligtingsmeganismes nie so aantreklik uit 'n ekonomiese oogpunt nie, maar uit 'n sosiale hoek beskou, is die rol van kleinskaalvissery as 'n lewensonderhoudende en tredhoudende meganisme noodsaaklik vir die armes, veral in gebiede waar alternatiewe werksgeleenthede skaars is en geen sosiale sekerheidsprogramme beskikbaar is nie. In sodanige gebiede sal vissery die rol speel van 'n welsynsprogram wat deur ander vorme van sosiale ondersteuning deur verskillende regeringsvlakke verskaf sal moet word.
Soos aangedui in die Nasionale Ontwikkelingsplan, NOP, is seevissery belangrik vir oorlewing, vir kleinskaalvissery en vir indiensneming. Die NOP stel dit duidelik dat kleinskaal vissers op marienebronne as 'n bron van voedsel staatmaak.
Terwyl die visbedryf redelik getransformeer is vir sover dit swart ekonomiese bemagtiging betref, word diegene wat tradisioneel in die visbedryf betrokke is gereeld gegnoreer - aldus die NOP. Tradisionele vissers moet beter geleenthede en ondersteuning kry. 'n Spesifieke voorbeeld is om supermarkte aan te moedig om hul waardekettings oop te stel deur vennootskappe met plaaslike produsente en plattelandse visserygemeenskappe te sluit.
Ons moet ook kennis neem van die feit dat die vertroue op vissery om 'n inkomste aan die armes te verseker nie net so ver as vissery-aktiwiteite gaan nie, maar dat dit ook verwerkings- en handelsaktiwiteite insluit. Hierdie aspek bring ons ook by die geslagsdimensie van kleinskaalvissery, naamlik dat vroue gewoonlik die hoofdeelnemers in hierdie verwante sektore is.
Die beskerming, ondersteuning en erkenning van die regte van kleinskaalvissers strook met nasionale beleid, planne, programme en internasionale standaarde. Kleinskaalvissery sal aangewend word as 'n strategie om armoede te verlig en om voedselsekerheid en plaaslike sosiale en ekonomiese ontwikkeling te bevorder.
Die departement erken dus dat kleinskaalvissers 'n bydrae tot die land se ekonomie sal lewer en dat 'n verspreidingsmeganisme vir armoedeverligting en generiese sosiale ondersteuning verskaf sal word. Ondersteuning sal ook verskaf word vir infrastruktuur en dienste wat noodsaaklik is vir ekonomiese ontwikkeling, maar slegs die sodaniges wat waarskynlik nie deur die privaatsektor verskaf sal word nie, soos byvoorbeeld vervoerinfrastruktuur na markte en die voorsiening van opvoedings- en gesondheidsorgfasiliteite. Op hierdie wyse sal 'n ontwikkelingsagenda in werking gestel word wat kleinskaalvissery sal bedryf. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[We know from experience that most households involved in the fishing industry, in particular in developing countries, cannot depend on a high income and can only rely on being able to survive. Attention should therefore be given to the development of and support for small-scale fishermen in areas such as Paternoster, Hondeklip Bay, Laingville, Elands Bay, Hout Bay and Hamburg. I can name more poor communities.
Maybe poverty alleviation mechanisms are not so attractive from an economic point of view, but seen from a social perspective the role of small-scale fishing as a subsistence and support mechanism is essential for the poor, particularly in areas where alternative employment opportunities are scarce and social security programmes are not available. In such areas fishing will play the role of a welfare programme that would have to be provided by other forms of social support through various government tiers.
As indicated in the National Development Plan, sea fishery is important for survival, for small-scale fishery and for employment. The NDP states clearly that small-scale fishermen are reliant upon marine resources as a source of food.
While the fishing industry has been fairly transformed as far as black economic empowerment is concerned, those who have traditionally been involved in the fishing industry have regularly been ignored - according to the NDP.
Traditional fishermen should be getting better opportunities and support. A specific example is to encourage supermarkets to open their value chains by concluding partnerships with local producers and rural fishing communities.
We should also take note of the fact that the dependency on fishing to secure an income for the poor does not just go as far as fishing activities alone, but that it also includes processing and commercial activities. This aspect brings us to the gender dimension of small-scale fishing, namely that women are usually the main participants in these related sectors.
The protection, support and acknowledgement of the rights of small-scale fishermen are all in line with national policy, plans, programmes and international standards. Small-scale fishing will be employed as a strategy to alleviate poverty and to promote food security as well as local social and economic development.
The department therefore acknowledges that small-scale fishermen will make a contribution to the country's economy and that a distribution mechanism for poverty alleviation and generic social support will be provided. There will also be support for infrastructure and services that are essential for economic development, but only those which probably won't be provided by the private sector such as, for instance, transport infrastructure to markets and the provision of educational and health facilities. In this way a development agenda will be established that will run small-scale fishing.]
A number of factors which will play a critical role in regard to achieving our goals include equity in the value chain and growth and competitiveness through providing support to small operators to enable them to improve their productivity and incomes. [Interjections.] The integrated fisheries development plan ...
... daar is 'n plan vir die leuenaars ... [... there is a plan for the liars ...]
... will also assist in regard to addressing the value chain and the development of alternative livelihoods for coastal communities.
Die tyd dat ons die geduld van vissersgemeenskappe ... [Tussenwerpsels.] [The time for the patience of fishing communities ... ] [Interjections.]]
More lies!
... moet beloon, is nou! [... to be rewarded is now!]
The ball is now in our court to implement what people have been waiting for, for so long - for 40 years.
Die ANC staan vir 'n trotse nasie. Die ANC is die regering van die mense, vir die mense. Die Vryheidsmanifes van die ANC stel dit reg - dat net die ANC regering alle ongelykhede van die verlede sal regstel. [Applous.] Dankie ANC vir trotse en onbaatsugtige dienslewering. Ek bedank agb Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson, 'n vrou wat 'n imbhokodo [rots] is, 'n vrou wat gely het, deurgebreek het en die ysterdeur oopgegooi het om vir die kleinskaalvissers 'n beleid te vorm met die insette van die mense.
Agb Bhanga, die mense het self die insette gemaak in hierdie tydperk waar die Huis mislei word en waar daar ges word dat die wetsontwerp laat hier uitgekom het. Die insette van die mense was belangrik. Die tyd is verby dat daar wetsontwerpe gemaak word sonder die mense se insette. [Applous.] Die mense het nie die regering hof toe gevat nie. Hulle het die stelsel van apartheid hof toe gevat, want die stelsel van apartheid het toegelaat, toe die Swart Grond Wet gemplementeer is, dat meganismes in plek gestel is wat parallel met die uitdeling van die visbronne geloop het, en dit het daartoe gelei dat die vissersgemeenskappe van hul grond af weggevat is.
Hulle is na die binneland gestuur en daarna het die Bantustans, soos hulle vir ons genoem het, ingekom. Toe die Bantustanbeleid inskop, word die mense in kampongs gesit. Ons het nou veeldoelige sentrums van daardie kampongs gemaak. [Applous.] Ons wil nie daardie geskiedenis wegvat nie, want ons wil ons kinders se kinders leer dat dit is waar ons gelewe het, dit is wat ons oorgekom het, en dit is waarvandaan ons kom.
Vir agt jaar was daar niks vir die kleinskaalvissers nie. Waar was agb Van Dalen? Hoekom het hy nie opgestaan nie? Hoekom het hy nie destyds al 'n beleid ingestel nie? [Tussenwerpsels.] Die beleid wat ons gehad het - die hoofwet - akkommodeer glad nie die kleinskaalvissers nie, en dit is hoekom, vir die eerste keer in die geskiedenis, 'n wysigingswet vir kleinskaalvissery deur die mense self ingebou word.
Agb Meriam Phaliso van die ANC, wie hier staan, is 'n aktivis in die visserybedryf. Almal wat hier gepraat het, diegene van die DA en Cope, was nie deel van die aktivisme om 'n deurbraak te maak vir die kleinskaalvissers nie, want hulle weet nie wat dit is om te gaan slaap en net 'n klein kreefbeentjie te eet en 'n bietjie water te drink nie. [Applous.] Vandag wil ek tog vir agb Van Dalen waarsku om nie van ons mense visdiewe te maak nie en om vandag vir die Huis te kom s dat hy hierdie beleid ondersteun het. [Tussenwerpsels.](Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[The ANC stands for a proud nation. The ANC is the government of the people, for the people. The Freedom Charter of the ANC states correctly that only the ANC government will put right all the inequalities of the past. [Applause.] Thank you, ANC for proud and selfless service delivery. I thank Minister Tina Joemat-Pettersson, a woman who is an imbhokodo [rock], a woman who has suffered and who has broken through to fling open the steel door in order to draft a policy for small-scale fishermen with input from the people.
Hon Bhanga, the people themselves made these inputs during this period when the House was misled and it was said that this Bill had reached us too late. The people's inputs were important. The time has passed when Bills were made without any input from the people. [Applause.] The people did not take the government to court. They took the system of apartheid to court, because when the Black Land Act was implemented the system of apartheid allowed for a mechanism to be put in place that ran parallel with the distribution of fishing resources, which led to fishing communities' being taken away from their land.
They were sent inland and afterwards the Bantustans, as they called us, came in. When the Bantustan policy kicked in, the people were put into compounds. We have now made multipurpose centres of those compounds. [Applause.] We do not want to do away with that history, because we want to teach our children's children that that is where we lived, that is what befell us and that is where we come from. For eight years there was nothing for the small-scale fishermen. Where is hon Van Dalen? Why didn't he rise up? Why didn't he put a policy in place back in those days already? [Interjections.] The policy we did have - the main Act - doesn't accommodate small-scale fishermen at all, which is why, for the first time in history, an amending Act for small-scale fishermen is being incorporated by the people themselves.
Hon Meriam Phaliso of the ANC, who is standing here, is an activist in the fishing industry. Everyone who has spoken here, those from the DA and Cope, were not part of the activism to make a breakthrough for the small-scale fishermen, because they do not know what it is like to go to sleep with only a small crayfish bone and a bit of water. [Applause.] But today I want to warn hon Van Dalen not to make fish thieves of our people and to tell the House today that he supported this policy. [Interjections.]]
Order, order!
Hy het dit teengestaan. Hy praat namens visvang vir ontspanningsdoeleindes. Hy praat nie namens kleinskaalse vissers nie. Hy baklei sodat sportvis-aktiwiteite se kwotas verhoog kan word, en dit is die rede ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Ms M N PHALISO: He opposed it. He is speaking on behalf of fishing for recreational purposes. He is not speaking on behalf of small-scale fishermen. He is fighting so that the quotas for recreational fishing activities can be increased, and that is the reason ... ]
Chairperson, on a point of order: Can the member speak a bit louder please? [Interjections.]
Dit is nou wanneer 'n mens spyt raak vir die waarheid. Die kommersile sektor is oorheers deur ryk monopolie-kapitaal ... [Now this is when one becomes sad about the truth. The commercial sector was ruled by rich monopoly capital ... ]
Order, hon members! Hon member, can you just take your seat? Hon members, because of the way you are heckling, I cannot even hear the speaker. [Laughter.] You are heckling too loudly, and I cannot hear. Let the hon member speak and you can listen.
Chairperson, you said you can't hear the speaker. I just want to assure you that you are missing nothing.
Die kommersile sektor is oorheers deur ryk monopoliekapitaal wat nie honger ken nie. Ons praat hier met die armoedige mense. Ons praat nie met mense wat in rykdom grootgeword het nie, wie net die lekker lewe geken het en nooit honger gaan slaap het nie. Ons praat met onsself, die armoediges.
Gedurende hierdie tydperk is die meeste kleurling en swart kusgemeenskappe wat buite die aangewese Bantustans gewoon het van die toegang wat hulle tradisioneel tot die see en lewende mariene hulpbronne gehad het, ontneem. Kleinskaalvissers is gedwing om vir die vismaatskappye, onder monopolie- eienaarskap, te werk. [Tussenwerpsels.] Sover is dit die klein, medium en mikro-ondernemings, KMMOs, wat die meeste werk teen die kus skep.
Monopoliekapitaal verdrink ons mense. Ons het lyke in die see wat ons vandag nog nie kan kry nie. Ons soek na liggame van mense van wie niemand praat nie. Waar is die aktiviste wat hier gepraat het en ges het dat hulle vir die arm mense praat? Kom help ons om daardie lyke uit die see te kry. Laat ons die name vir julle gee. Daar sit uTata van Khayelitsha wat, omdat hy isiXhosa praat, nie in die Wes-Kaap kop toe gevat word nie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Ms M N PHALISO: The commercial sector was ruled by rich monopoly capital, which knows no hunger. We are now talking with the impoverished people. We are not talking with people who grew up wealthy, who knew only the good life en never went to sleep hungry. We are talking with ourselves, the impoverished.
During this period most of the coloured and black communities living outside the designated Bantustans were deprived of their traditional access to the sea and living marine resources. Small-scale fishermen were forced to work for the fishing companies, under monopoly ownership. [Interjections.] So far it is the small, medium and micro enterprises which have been creating most of the jobs along the coast.
Monopoly capital is drowning our people. Today there are corpses in the sea that we still cannot find. We are looking for the bodies of people about whom nobody will speak. Where are the activists who spoke here, saying that they were doing so on behalf of the poor people? Come and help us retrieve those bodies from the sea. We can give you the names. There sits uTata from Khayelitsha who, because he speaks isiXhosa, is not taken seriously in the Western Cape. [Applause.]]
Today is the date on which we can finally undo the shackles of a century of oppressive legislative legacy and restore to those whom we claim to represent their age-old and biblically recorded right to sustain a livelihood for themselves, their families and their communities from the bountiful natural resources - the living marine resources - that occur in our two oceans along our magnificent 3 000 km coastline. Let us today restore their dignity and freedom and ignore the misleading falsehood of a nave political opportunist, a bogus advocate and a thief of coastal community fishing wealth. I thank you, hon Chairperson. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon Chairperson, today is really a wonderful day. I am absolutely happy. Deputy President, today is a victory for the poor.
On 3 May 2012 the hon Van Dalen said, "The Small-Scale Fishing Policy is ideologically moribund" - I repeat, "moribund", - "and devoid of any understanding of the economics of the industry."
I can give the hon Van Dalen a list of all the Hansard records in which he spoke against the Small-Scale Fisheries Policy. He spoke against any small- scale fishing community, and he only supported the big industries. [Interjections.] The big industries are their constituency; they are their friends and families. Now that it is voting time, it is they who need you. You can get the Hansard. It is right here.
What "moribund" means, according to the Free Dictionary, is that it is "approaching death; about to die." It is in a state of being near death. Was Van Dalen predicting that the DA was about to die? Is it at the stage of death? Is it on the verge of becoming obsolete? Or was he saying that his own party was a moribund political party that was breathing its last breath? Was he saying that he, himself, was moribund and that he was on his last legs? Such hypocrisy has been exposed today. The chameleon has been exposed. [Interjections.]
Hon Bhanga said that this policy, which we passed in 2010 and on which they have been fighting me since 2010, would never become a reality, and would never be the basis of a Bill, and that Bill would never be enacted in Parliament. Today, hon Bhanga, you are a chameleon. [Laughter.]
Hon Van Dalen, when you saw that opposing the Bill would cost you votes, you changed your tune. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] We are touching a very sore nerve. This is real economic transformation. We are taking the wealth away from the rich, and we are giving it to the poor. [Interjections.] But is not the Robin Hood principle. You have heard the DA saying that those people just want to be fishermen and fisherwomen. We have news for you. They want to be educated, they want to be business people, they want business plans, and they want AGMs. Hon member, you are so condescending that it is derogatory and racist. I am so happy that you have been exposed today. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Chairperson, I am addressing you on a point of order.
What is the point of order?
The hon Minister accused the hon Geordin Hill-Lewis of being racist. I submit that that is unparliamentary and that she must withdraw that statement.
We will consult the Hansard and come back with a ruling. [Interjections.] Are you trying to intimidate me? [Applause.] Order, please! If I say we are going to consult the Hansard and come back with a ruling, that is in order according to the procedures and rulings of this House. Therefore, I do not need a member to try to intimidate me when I say that. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
Chairperson, can I quickly ask for clarity on a point of order please.
Please!
Chairperson, on a point of order: I would like to understand why the report of the Portfolio Committee on Communications is not part of the Orders of the Day, nor part of Further Business? Clearly, it should have been introduced in the House and thereafter there should have been the Second Reading. So, I would like to understand what the reason for that is please?
Hon member, I thought that was the business of the National Assembly Programme Committee and the Whips, and I thought you were part of that. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, may I please just indicate to you that the programming committee and the Whips do not compile the Order Paper. That is compiled by the NA Table. Clearly it is an oversight, and it is very serious, because it does not conform to the Rules of Parliament.
I am sorry, I do not have the answer to that, hon member. [Interjections.]
On a point of order, Chair: I think hon Kilian is seriously out of order. The Whippery and the Chief Whips' Forum look at the programme and what matters come before the House. There is programming. We sat at 08:30 in the National Assembly Programme Committee this morning. Surely, if she were genuine and she knew there was a problem, she should have raised it there. Matters of what goes onto the Order Paper do not come before the House and we do not debate them here. What she is doing is unprocedural and unprecedented.
Hon member, that is according to my knowledge. Please take your seat and let us continue. That is according to my knowledge.
House Chair, may I address you on a point of order? [Interjections.]
What point of order do you rise on?
Chairperson, I would like to address you on the committee report on the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa Amendment Bill. I would like to know for clarity whether the two should go together, as has been the case for everything this afternoon. It is normal procedure that the committee report comes before the House for adoption, and the Bill comes for either a Second Reading or declarations.
Hon member, we will come to that in the course of the debate. Can we proceed at the moment?