Voorsitter, die proses wat gevolg is om eergister en gister di wetgewing in die komitee te behandel, het veel te wense oorgelaat. Ons het by tye nie eens die korrekte bewoording van al die klousules voor ons gehad nie, maar desnieteenstaande het ons 'n moedige poging aangewend en almal saamgewerk, en die DA sal hierdie twee stukke wetgewing steun. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr W P DOMAN: Chairperson, the process which was followed the day before yesterday and yesterday to deal with this legislation in the committee left much to be desired. At times we did not even have the correct wording for all the clauses in front of us, but despite this we all made a valiant effort and worked together, and the DA will support these two pieces of legislation.]
These Bills went through a thorough process of consultation in the provinces. The Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill in particular deals with complicated matters about which traditional communities feel very strongly, and it will require Solomon's wisdom to resolve all the matters.
With the National House of Traditional Leaders in operation for three years, and the Commission on Traditional Leadership Disputes and Claims also in operation for some time, shortcomings in the present legislation and problem areas clearly came to the fore, and a good effort was made in this legislation to deal with these. Whether these Bills will be able to resolve all these challenges in practice, remains to be seen.
For example, the creation of a new layer in the traditional leadership landscape of "principal traditional leader", "principal traditional communities" and "principal traditional councils" is very interesting. But it will also be very costly. The cost to the fiscus of the whole system of royal houses and traditional leaders is something that is worrying.
In this regard, I must point out that the Commission on Traditional Leadership Disputes and Claims has up to now cost about R50 million, and this commission has not performed very well. Hundreds of claims have not been resolved, and decisions are still outstanding.
It was argued before our committee that the work of this commission is necessary, and we agree. Its processes have to be speeded up and therefore we are approving a new structure today of five commissioners heading committees in the different provinces to deal with claims and issues in a decentralised way. They will also only be making recommendations.
Dis nogal goed dat die ANC so 'n bietjie iets leer teen sentralisasie, want dis heeltyd net "sentralisasie, sentralisasie". Hier is 'n goeie ding wat hulle gerus op ander terreine van die openbare lewe ook kan toepas. (Translation of the Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[It is quite good that the ANC is learning something negative about centralisation, because throughout it is all about "centralisation, centralisation". This is a good thing, which it is worth their while to apply in other areas of public life as well.]
Why we are concerned about cost is also that each and every claimant who is successful will mean that the salaries and allowances bill for divisional leaders rises, not to mention the full operational costs of the National House of Traditional Leaders and its counterparts in the different provinces.
We have just received the Sereti Commission's proposals that members of the different houses should come onto the Political Office Bearers Pension Fund and also that funeral benefits should be provided for traditional leaders. In this Bill, for the first time, a sitting allowance is also provided for nontraditional-leader members in the different houses and committees. It is estimated that this alone will amount to R36,7 million per annum. And we have all read the reports in the newspapers about the royal house in KwaZulu-Natal exceeding its budgets.
Yesterday the Minister of Finance warned us all that we are living in difficult times and that we all have to apply financial constraint. The principle for us in the DA is that the country must receive value for money. Of course, accountability for all budgets is non-negotiable.
The institution of traditional affairs must always be instituted and operate within the ambit of the Constitution. We are therefore grateful that gender issues are given the necessary attention in these two Bills - not only that the terminology is gender-sensitive, but also that they provide for the protection of women, from queenships to the gender composition of the different houses.
Within the ambit of the Constitution and the laws that govern municipalities, the relationship between traditional leaders and authorities, on the one hand, and councillors and municipal councils, on the other hand, is quite often contentious. Section 81 of the Municipal Structures Act stipulates that traditional authorities must participate in councils, and this is not actually happening.
On the other hand, the Bill that we are changing today also provides for a code of conduct for traditional leaders. If you look at that code of conduct, they must not be gatekeepers but must allow for local development in the communities. [Time expired.] I thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, the institution of traditional leaders is an integral part of our society. If appropriately utilised, it may bring value to our people, because it is a link between formal institutions of state and our rural informal communities. Our Constitution requires that governance structures give cognisance to the principles of nonsexism, co- operative governance between the legislatures and the houses, nation- building, unity and peace among the houses and traditional communities.
There is no question about enhancing traditions and culture. The Bill also satisfies another long-standing vacuum, namely giving serious attention to the lot of the rural people of our country. The establishment of the House allows for it to participate in international and national programmes geared towards the development of rural communities. It also has the power to participate in national initiatives meant to monitor, review and evaluate government programmes in rural communities.
The code of conduct in Schedule C compels members of the House to perform the functions of their office in good faith and in an honest, nondiscriminatory and transparent manner, and to act at all times in the best interests of the House in such a way that the credibility and integrity of the House are not compromised.
The fact that traditional leaders have always exercised authority in their areas in a traditional manner does not mean that our constitutional dispensation must not be allowed to hold sway. [Time expired.] Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Chair, members of the House, the IFP will not be supporting these Bills today. We have problems not only with the content, but largely with the process. These Bills were presented to us on Tuesday and voted on on Thursday, and to be honest with you, it is quite astonishing that one is expected to look at a Bill comprising 50 pages of amendments - here is page 1 and here is page 50, if you think that I am exaggerating - in five seconds and vote on it.
I have been here for 15 years and I have never yet been in a committee where pages of amendments are placed before a committee without even being read. They simply said: "What do members think? Is it OK? Ja, fine. OK, any questions? Move on." As if everybody is an Einstein or everybody has studied the amendments before. There was such a rush to get this thing through that there was not enough time given to deliberating on the content, and we find this highly problematic.
In fact, the whole process, to be honest, Chair, was a charade. And the reason for that is that this is a Bill that has been returned from the NCOP. And because the NCOP only voted on it on Tuesday, and we were voting on Wednesday, had we effected any amendments, it would have had to go back to the NCOP or for mediation, and the ANC didn't want mediation; they wanted it approved. So why bother scrutinising it? We are going to rubberstamp it anyway! Which is what we did, at the behest of the executive, anyway.
So that is a hell of a problem, Chair, and we really think this is unacceptable, because it makes a complete mockery of the principle of the separation of powers. The executive comes along to us and says: "Hey, please pass this thing quickly." And the little committee sits there and says, "Ja, baas." Rubberstamped! That is not the way Parliament is meant to operate. So we are very unhappy.
And let me add to that: The problem is that there has been no consultation whatsoever in the NA. Now, it is quite true that in the NCOP they consulted everybody. I don't care what they did in the NCOP. It's got nothing to do with the National Assembly. We have a duty in the National Assembly to say, "Is the content of these amendments correct or not?" Nobody came to us, no inputs were received from civil society, nothing came from the House of Traditional Leaders, and we were expected to say, "Fine. No problem." That is not the way it should be done either, Chair.
So we think this Bill should have been prioritised for next year and we could have given it due consideration. It is really sad for the legislature to be a lapdog of the executive. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Hon Chairperson, the UDM supports the Bills before us. Allow us, however, to raise a few concerns regarding the state of traditional leadership in the country. It is true that traditional leaders are in control of the lives of millions of South Africans. However, for traditional leaders to find their rightful place in the new dispensation, it is vital that certain disparities are addressed.
Uya kufumanisa ukuba ookumkani abarhunyiswa ngokufanayo. Yingxaki enkulu ke leyo. Kananjalo noncedo abalufumana kurhulumente alulingani. Urhulumente kufuneka ayiqwalasele into yokuba ikumkani yikumkani nokuba ivela phi na, kwaye kufuneka ihlonitshwe.
Uye ufumanise ukuba ezinye iinkosi zenza umsebenzi wooceba abangawenziyo umsebenzi wabo. Enkosi. [Laphela ixesha.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[You will find that kings are not given the same amount of money. That is a big problem. Even the government subsidy is not the same. The government must take into consideration that a king is a king irrespective of where he comes from, and that he must be respected.
You will find that councillors are incompetent and as such chiefs end up doing their jobs. Thank you. [Time expired.]]
Chairperson, governance needs to be taken seriously and both traditional and municipal structures need to coexist and govern in unison and harmony.
These "principal traditional leaders", a new creation in the traditional leadership, will definitely cause confusion. The tribes may drift away from the authority of kings and queens and form their own traditional authorities - hence it needs to be thoroughly explained to our traditional leaders and authorities.
The plight of the poor will remain with us and it is our responsibility to provide much-needed support and align powers and functions.
In conclusion, Madam Speaker, the choice of who is to be in the principal traditional council and kingship and queenship councils remains a big question, because a traditional leader is born, not elected. That is our African culture.
The UCDP supports the Bill, though. [Applause.]
Hon Chairperson, the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill deals with the recognition of kingship and queenship. It also deals with the relationship with local government regulations relating to the establishment of local traditional councils.
These Bills represent an improvement which was long desired. There are people who are going to express different views but it is very important that, although political arms are given responsibility over traditional matters, they should be guided by the long-established traditions and customs of the people. We cannot do away with traditions and customs.
Throughout the world traditional structures remain. In India they remain very strong at local level. They are called the Panchayat raj and they play a pivotal role. So traditionalism and traditional leaders are going to remain in the country for a very long time.
The MF will support the Bills. Thank you.
House Chairperson and hon members, the ANC will support this legislation. We do so because we understand that in the process of lawmaking there will be no sterile environment that is vacuum cleaned completely, having no relationship with the executive and Parliament.
These are Members of Parliament who also happen to come from our ranks and we appreciate that in the process of doing their work, they will come across instances and issues that require, in hindsight, a request to introduce things they may not have had in mind at the beginning of the process. That is life; and experience. Therefore, we appreciate that they've done as they requested, on the understanding that legislation is coming to us for further debate and more time to interrogate these issues as well; and where the need arises we will not hesitate to introduce changes that will satisfy both the process and the content.
Hon Smith says that they will reject the Bill; it's their right to do so. But he exaggerates, naturally, he dramatises what happened in the committee. He spoke the most; contributed - in my opinion - the most useful questions and comments in the committee; and he intimidates with the size of the documents. However, consequential amendments often appear huge but are technical and not much time needs to be spent on them. We've done this before, Peter. You are surprising, today; but I suppose you have to meet the mandate to act dramatic. That's politics, we understand it.
There are two things that I would like to say. Of course, in the initial stages, pieces of legislation do often cause confusion as they require explanation. We are not nave; we appreciate and understand that this is why there are Members of Parliament who have to explain this legislation. This is why the structures in the provinces that interacted with this legislation gave them permission.
You cannot say that you don't care about what is happening in the provinces, including yours, when, in their wisdom, they agreed with the legislation. Its a bit strange to say that, especially if they represent the majority of the people in KwaZulu-Natal. It is strange to dismiss them as insignificant.
The concerns raised about disparities in remuneration and support are matters of substance and content, of transformation of the institution of traditional leadership. We understand that the work underway is intended to provide a thorough systematic look at all of these issues so that the department that is going to be set up will be in consultation with traditional leaders across the country, and find sustainable solutions to these problems that speak to all the concerns we have in our country to provide equitable support across all institutions of governance.
We also appreciate that some of this legislation seeks to provide coherence in the relationships across the three areas of national, provincial and local Houses. This is one of the tasks of the new legislation that is being introduced. This is very useful, because without that coherence we cannot deal with this problem in a manner that makes sense, because of the fragmentation that exists currently. In that sense, they constitute a very important piece of work that needs to be done.
We are appreciative of the necessity to fast-track the Commission on Traditional Leadership Disputes and Claims because of the outstanding work that still needs to be done; the agitation on the ground - in most of the areas of our country - where people are concerned about those who, in the opinion of their communities, are not really traditional leaders.
They need to be told in a manner that explains the negative consequences that may arise from this. Consenquently, this commission and how it will work, its modus operandi - learning from the previous commission - it must be changed to make it more effective in providing for more provincial input so that the solutions raised reflect the peculiarities of each province. On this matter, hon Doman, ideologically, the problem with the old- fashioned ideologists like you is that you don't recognise the value of managing polarities. Decentralisation and centralisation - the two go together. Some things are best done at a national level and some at a local level. You have to always look at situations; you can't ... as if ...
... o fana ka makgona tsohle ... [... you are giving a solution to all problems ...]
... a solution to all problems, every time, and say "decentralise". It is ridiculous; it doesn't work in that way. [Applause.] You have to study, look at the circumstances and look at what is best done and work on the basis of circumstances - decentralise or centralise if appropriate. Yes, you do that. This is what we agreed on with the Planning Commission, how it is going to do it.
There is no doubt about accountability, since every institution of government, elected or traditional, must be accountable to the people of this country. We have required that governance must be people-centred and people-driven. Communities in areas under the jurisdiction of traditional leaders need to see them being responsive to their needs, especially if they are using the state's resources.
We are appreciative of the gender language of the legislation. This is the responsibility we have as MPs. When the executive does it, it's correct as the hon member said appreciatively. It is not only in the language, in other words, in the form, but the content of the work of this institution must express its value to men and women, young and old people in their work. It is for that reason that this important work needs to be followed up.
The objection is that this happened at the behest of the executive. We have, as Parliament, delegated that the executive will initiate legislation and present it to us to look at it. In these instances, we negotiated and agreed that in future we need to have a process that will allow a lot more qualitative input and debate and discussion in different circumstances. These are special circumstances. It is one of those species dealing with the transition that we must treat exceptional without, thereby, giving up our responsibility to engage in intense debate and discussions.
But we have been promised that legislation a this will be tabled and we'll deal with it appropriately and will continue to be in consultation with traditional leaders. We are aware that a summit of traditional leaders will be taking place, possibly in December, at which these issues on traditional leaders will be addressed.
The civil society organisations and we ourselves should familiarise ourselves with the legislation without being intimidated by the size that Peter Smith is talking about. We have to read, Peter. It is the responsibility that we undertook in our constituencies, that we will do work in their name and interest. There is no doubt that the question of costs is an issue that needs to be attended to.
Finally, the capacity of Parliament needs to improve dramatically around technical mistakes that occurred. We need to get work done to minimise the number of mistakes made in the legislation to be tabled before the House. There is no question about the need for this capacity of work. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Chairperson, I move:
That the Bills be passed.
Question put: That the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill be passed.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 201: Abram, S; Adams, L H; Adams, P E; Ainslie, A R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bikani, F C; Bonhomme, T J; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, T; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Carrim, Y I; Carter, D; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coetzee, T W; Coleman, E M; Dandala, H M; Davidson, I O; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Ditshetelo, I C; Dlamini, B O; Doman, W P; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Ellis, M J; Farisani, T S; Figlan, A M; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Fubbs, J L; Gaehler, L B; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcume, N P; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; George, D T; George, M E; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hajaig, F; Johnson, M; Kalyan, S V; Kekane, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Kilian, J D; Kohler-Barnard, D; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, N J J v R; Krumbock, G R; Kubayi, M T; Lekgetho, G; Lotriet, A; Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Madasa, Z L; Mafolo, M V; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Makasi, X C; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M I; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matladi, M N; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mazibuko, L D; Mbalula, F A; Mbili, M E; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, L N; Mnguni, P B; Mnisi, N A; Mnqasela, M; Mocumi, P A; Mohale, M C; Molao, S K; Molebatsi, M A; Morutoa, M R; Motshekga, M S; Mthethwa, E M; Mufamadi, T A; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndude, H N; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngonyama, L S; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntshiqela, P; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nxumalo, M D; Nyama, M M A; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Petersen-Maduna, P; Poho, P D; Pretorius, P J C; Radebe, B A; Ramatlakane, L; Rantsolase, M A; Rwexana, S P; Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Steele, M H; Stofile, M A; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tolo, L J; Trollip, R A P; Tsebe, S R; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van Dalen, P; Van den Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Merwe, S C; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Van Wyk, A; Vukuza-Linda, N Y; Wenger, M; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E.
NOES - 11: Cebekhulu, R N; Lebenya-Ntanzi, S P; Lovemore, A T; Magama, H T; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T; Msweli, H S; Ndlovu, V B; Oriani- Ambrosini, M G; Singh, N; Smith, P F.
Question agreed to.
National House of Traditional Leaders Bill accordingly passed.
Question put: That the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill be passed.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 212: Abram, S; Adams, L H; Adams, P E; Ainslie, A R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bikani, F C; Bonhomme, T J; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, T; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Carrim, Y I; Carter, D; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coetzee, T W; Coleman, E M; Dandala, H M; Davidson, I O; Davies, R H; De Freitas, M S F; Diale, L N; Ditshetelo, I C; Dlamini, B O; Doman, W P; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Duncan, P C; Dunjwa, M L; Ellis, M J; Farisani, T S; Figlan, A M; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Fritz, A T; Fubbs, J L; Gaehler, L B; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; George, D T; George, M E; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Johnson, M; Kalyan, S V; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Kilian, J D; Kloppers- Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Kubayi, M T; Lekgetho, G; Lotriet, A; Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Madasa, Z L; Madisha, W M; Mafolo, M V; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G ; Makasi, X C; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M I; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Marais, E J; Masango, S J; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matladi, M N; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Mbalula, F A; Mbili, M E; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfeketo, N C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhize, L N; Mnisi, N A; Mnqasela, M; Mocumi, P A; Mohale, M C; Mokgalapa, S; Molao, S K; Molebatsi, M A; Morutoa, M R; Motshekga, M S; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T A; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndude, H N; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngonyama, L S; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntshiqela, P; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nxumalo, M D; Nyama, M M A; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Petersen- Maduna, P; Poho, P D; Pretorius, P J C; Radebe, B A; Ramatlakane, L; Rantsolase, M A; Rwexana, S P; Schafer, DA; Schmidt, J; Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Stofile, M A; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tolo, L J; Tsebe, S R; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Twala, N M; Van Dalen, P; Van den Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Merwe, S C; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Van Wyk, A; Waters, M; Wenger, M; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E.
NOES - 10: Cebekhulu, R N; Lebenya-Ntanzi, S P; Motau, S C; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T; Msweli, H S; Ndlovu, V B; Oriani-Ambrosini, M G; Singh, N; Smith, P F.
Question agreed to.
Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill accordingly passed.