Agb Voorsitter, die agb Minister, as ek hom reg verstaan, het hy ges dat daar weer na die strategiese planne gekyk moet word.
Agb Minister, u het 'n strategiese plan vir grondhervorming in Suid-Afrika wat 2008 tot 2011 dek. Ek wil vir die agb Minister s dat, as hy wil vorder met grondhervorming, hy die probleme wat al reeds in daardie strategiese plan uitgestip is, sal moet aanspreek.
Kom ek noem twee probleme. Die een is 'n tekort aan personeel. Die direkteur-generaal van die departement, mnr Thozi Gwanya, s hy kan nie sy werk doen nie want hy het nie mense wat die werk kan doen nie. Die tweede aspek is geld.
Ek wil vandag vir die agb Minister s dat dit ook nie gaan help om 'n klomp personeellede aan te stel wat onbevoeg is nie. Inteendeel, die eerste stap wat gedoen moet word wat personeel betref, is om ontslae te raak van die kriminele en die korrupte amptenare in die departement. Dit is eintlik skandalig as 'n mens in die koerante moet lees van valse eise wat ingedien word en van korrupte amptenare wat voor die hof moet verskyn. Ek s nie al die amptenare is so nie - daar is goeie amptenare - maar hierdie slegte amptenare is 'n skande vir die goeie amptenare. Die Minister moet eers van hulle ontslae raak.
Die tweede stap wat gedoen moet word, is om te sorg dat daar genoeg geld is. Die agb lid moet nie hier kom praat van "vrywillige koper en verkoper" en dat dit te veel kos nie. Die Grondwet van hierdie land beskerm 'n grondeienaar met betrekking tot die markwaarde van sy grond, tensy u vandag vir ons gaan s dat u die Grondwet gaan oortree.
'n Verdere aspek is die vraag wat ek, in hierdie Parlement, oor 'n grondoudit gevra het. Die vorige Minister het my geantwoord, maar dit gaan net oor staatsgrond. Maar wat van private grond? U stel 'n doelwit dat 30% teen 2014 in swart eienaars se hande moet wees, maar u het nie 'n oudit nie! U kan nie vir my s hoeveel landbougrond daar is nie; u kan nie vir my s hoeveel swart boere in hierdie land is nie; en u kan nie vir my s hoeveel wit, bruin- en Indirboere daar is nie.
Ek het nou weer die vraag vir u gevra, en ek wil vir u s, agb Minister, dit is tog net logies dat as u sekere doelwitte met betrekking tot die herverdeling van grond wil bereik, dan moet u daardie oudit doen. [Tyd verstreke.] Ek dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the hon Minister, if I understand him correctly, said that we should look at the strategic plans again.
Hon Minister, you have a strategic plan for land reform in South Africa covering 2008 to 2011. I want to tell the hon Minister that he must address the problems that have already been outlined in the strategic plan, if he wants to make progress with land reform.
Let me mention two problems. Firstly, there is a staff shortage. The director-general of the department, Mr Thozi Gwanya, is saying that he cannot do his work because he doesn't have the people to do the work. The second aspect is funds.
I want to say to the hon Minister today that appointing a bunch of incompetent staff will also not serve the purpose. On the contrary, the first step that should be taken with regard to staff is to get rid of the criminal and corrupt officials in the department. It is actually appalling when one has to read in newspapers about false claims that have been submitted and corrupt officials who have to appear in court. I'm not saying that all officials are like this - there are good officials - but these bad officials are a disgrace to the good officials. The Minister will first have to get rid of them.
The second step that should be taken is to ensure that there are sufficient funds. The hon member should not come here and talk about "willing buyer and seller" and about it being too costly. The Constitution of this country is protecting landowners with regard to the market value of their land, unless you are telling us today that you are going to contravene the Constitution.
A further aspect is the question I asked, in this Parliament, about a land audit. The previous Minister replied to me, but the reply only pertained to state-owned land. What about private land? You have set a goal that 30% must be in the hands of black owners by 2014, but you don't have an audit! You can't tell me how much agricultural land we have; you can't tell me how many black farmers we have in this country; and you can't tell me how many white, coloured and Indian farmers we have. I have just asked you the question once again, and I want to tell you, hon Minister, it is only logical that if you want to achieve certain goals with regard to land redistribution, you will have to conduct that audit. [Time expired.] I thank you. [Applause.]]
Hon Chairperson, hon chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Rural Development and Land Reform, hon members, the new Department of Rural Development and Land Reform and its predecessor, the Department of Land Affairs, whose Budget Vote we are presenting today to this House, are central to the dream of the realisation of a better life for the majority of South Africans.
The most basic asset for the development of the economic viability of any nation, right from ancient times up to modern-day society, is access to land. It is because of this fundamental truth that many bloody wars have been fought by nations, either to increase their ownership of land and its movable assets or to defend the land which they already had against aggressors who wanted to dispossess them of this essential asset. The South African nation is not different from other nations in history and has not been affected differently, and therefore, as already indicated by the hon the Minister in his speech, this department has, on behalf of the new democratic government and the people of our country, been tackling the challenge of the equitable distribution of land over the past 15 years. We all know what many centuries of colonialism and apartheid did in the dispossession of millions of indigenous South Africans of their most valuable asset, the land itself.
As already reflected in the Minister's speech, the battle for equity in ownership and access to land by the people of our country is far from over. While a lot of progress has been made over the past 15 years, it is clear that a lot more still needs to be done if we are to avoid the issue of land hunger from becoming a ticking time bomb in our midst. It is quite clear that this department and even government as a whole cannot solve this problem alone. We are therefore calling on all South Africans, especially those who have benefited from the historical injustices, to be more patriotic and constructive in contributing towards a speedy resolution of this critical matter.
As we look forward to the five years of the mandate of the Fourth Democratic Parliament and democratic government, the expectations of our people are very clear, as captured in the manifesto of the ruling party, the ANC. It is this very manifesto which has again informed the priorities of government, as reflected in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, which was adopted by the cabinet lekgotla at the end of May 2009. Both the manifesto and the Medium-Term Strategic Framework have placed rural development, linked to land reform, at the forefront of the priorities of government over the next five years. We are quite aware that the task the voters have put before us is a mammoth one. Again, let me emphasise that a lot of progress has been made over the past 15 years in improving the quality of life of people in rural areas, but a lot more still needs to be done. It is indisputable that many rural villages have over the past 15 years received services such as electrification, reticulation of clean water, new tarred roads or regravelled roads, bridges, new bus and taxi ranks, new clinics and hospitals, new crches and new schools.
What the new mandate of this new department intends to do is to consolidate these gains and create a focused one-stop champion and catalyst to accelerate the creation of vibrant and sustainable rural communities. The aim is not to reinvent the wheel, but rather to create one national centre through which overall planning, co-ordinated implementation and monitoring and evaluation can be done. The key role of this Ministry and department will be to rally a wide range of players within government in all three spheres of its business, communities and civil society, NGOs and other players in a common cause of developing our rural areas.
In order to succeed, we will have to do a lot of groundwork, in order to be able to provide the strategic leadership required, which is what this Ministry and department are required to do, to provide the strategic leadership. To us, therefore, the motto of "Working together, we can do more" is not just a slogan, but a necessity.
We expect the long-term end result of our co-ordinated intervention to be rural communities which are comprehensive participants in the full life of our country, that is, in its economic life, in its social life and in its political life. We are quite aware that for people's energies to be unleashed, they must first have food security, and therefore there is a symbiotic relationship between this Ministry and department and that of Agriculture, but we must say from the outset that rural development is not synonymous with agriculture, but goes far beyond it in terms of broader economic participation, which will include, amongst other things, tourism, mining, construction and manufacturing, and therefore to us the revitalisation or initiating of new rural towns and rural trade centres is going to be very critical.
It is also clear that central to the success of our intervention will be people empowerment. We will have to contribute towards better social organisation, leadership and cohesion. In so doing, we will have to build on existing institutions of leadership and management of communities, such as traditional leadership and cultural and religious organisations. We are not going to try to replace these with new institutions of leadership, but rather to strengthen and empower them.
Improved functioning of institutions of learning, such as further education and training colleges and adult basic education and training centres, will be key to our success. At the end of the day the only guarantee of sustainable and vibrant development will be the enthusiasm and the skills and capacity of local people to drive whatever projects we will have initiated together with them.
Hon Chair, it is quite clear that if this new department is going to be able to deliver on its mandate, some serious reorganisation and refocusing will have to happen inhouse within our department. We must all heed the President's call that in the next five years Parliament will have to work differently, more efficiently, and faster in responding to the needs of the people. As we were campaigning throughout the length and breadth of our country for the elections which have just been concluded, together with the then president of the ANC and now the President of the Republic - I was lucky enough to be part of his team during the campaign - the message was very clear. That message was "A ke ku sheshwe" - let everything be done faster.
In this regard we have already started the process of reviewing the strategy, business and operational plans, and ultimately the delivery structure of the department, contrary to what the hon Groenewald has said. Any organisation which does not regularly re-examine its strategy will not be able to perform.
The Department of Land Affairs completed an extensive review of its organisational structure in the previous financial year, and the structure was agreed to by the Department of the Public Service and Administration. In order to align with the development of a Comprehensive Rural Development Strategy, our department will have to further redesign its organisational architecture. The added mandate of rural development will require a review with key focus on creating strategic, organisational, technical, planning and institutional capacity within the department itself.
In addition to the review of its organisational structure, the skills set of existing staff in the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform would also have to be expanded, to include the skills required to implement sustainable rural development. In this regard we have already been in touch with one of the leading institutions of higher learning in the country, which is already working on a programme with us to address this matter.
Hon Chairperson, the new administration has prioritised rural development, as we have said already, for the next five years. As such this department will have to make sure that it is able to deliver on this mandate, and that everybody within the department is oriented towards ensuring that this is effectively completed.
Further to this is the need for the department to rebrand itself, moving from a department that focused more on land reform to one that is now the custodian of rural development. The need to create a new brand and new culture of thinking is therefore imperative, and it is for this reason that the department has started this process of rebranding, so as to ensure that the whole organisation gives effect to its new mandate of rural development and land reform.
Chairperson, as we said earlier on, the issue of land lies at the heart of our communities in the rural areas. As such, it is imperative for us to inculcate a culture of effective and regular communication with our communities and other land reform beneficiaries. We must remain committed to ensuring that land reform beneficiaries, including claimants, are regularly updated about the status of their requests, their applications as well as their claims. We have identified this as being a major weakness up to date, where claims are being processed but people are not kept informed at every step. We want to make sure that this is addressed.
As the commission begins the difficult task of settling the remaining rural claims, which are complex due to their nature, it is imperative that communication with such claimants takes place regularly and effectively. Our rural communities especially are often isolated and disadvantaged by not being actively involved and informed of these processes, and in the age of technology this is not acceptable. In the age of cellular phones which is upon us our rural communities are able to access communication, and all of us, members of this House, know very well that because of this advanced technology we are often inundated with calls from our constituencies, requesting us to address a number of issues, and it is our intention that, as a department, especially in the area of land restitution, we must make full use of this technology. The department will therefore harness every mode of communication available to make sure that there is improved communication with our communities out there, especially in finalising the various claims with regard to restitution.
I would like to take this opportunity also to thank the portfolio committee for interactions we have had so far. Together we will face up to the challenges that lie ahead, and together we will ensure that we remain mindful of the need to ensure a better life for all our people.
Chairperson, the success of creating vibrant and sustainable rural communities depends on us working as a collective. Let us therefore tackle the way forward together.
Ka Sepedi re re, kodumela moepathutse, ga go lehumo le t?wago kgauswi. [In Sepedi we say, hard work pays.]
We must always bear in mind that, working together, we certainly can do more. I thank you. [Applause.]
Chair, hon Minister, the ACDP supports the government's determination to continue to prioritise poverty alleviation, and in view of the high levels of poverty which persist in rural areas, we applaud the new focus on rural development. These efforts, we hope, will prosper rural inhabitants and communities, and help stem the flow of people to cities in search of work. A lack of access to land, however, is still cited as a major contributor to rural poverty, making the remaining outstanding land claims a definite concern.
In order to meet its 30% target, the department needs to redistribute at least 3,2 million hectares of white-owned agricultural land every year between now and 2014. This is clearly not possible on the budget before us.
The ACDP notes the additional budget for staff capacity, and expects the department to proactively utilise this not only to seek out suitably qualified personnel, but for departmental training to develop and achieve the required level of skills. The ACDP is concerned by conflicting reports creating confusion and delays, despite assurances that market value should be paid for property. A 12 000 hectare property valued by the department at just over R3 million in 2007 has received an offer of R1,2 million from government. According to a provincial land claims commissioner, the reduction of prices applies to all farms and not just this one.
The ACDP believes that negotiating in bad faith places land restitution and redistribution programmes in jeopardy. With funds allocated to land acquisition being persistently scaled back, questions are being raised as to government's intentions regarding purchasing of land. Both land claimants and the agricultural community require a speedy conclusion of claims to restore confidence and regain peak production for food security.
Regrettably, the ACDP sees this budget as inadequate to meet capacity requirements, to achieve targets of redistributing land and for making restitution. The ACDP therefore cannot support Vote 27 as it stands.
Chairperson, since poverty alleviation is a top priority for government, it makes sense that rural development becomes one of the main priorities, so that the department can finalise outstanding claims, speed up the formulation of policy and legislation, provide adequate post- settlement support to land reform beneficiaries, and improve capacity to deliver.
Parliament must be updated regularly on the progress made in the finalisation of the restitution programme and cost implications thereof. It should monitor the Letsema campaign, and monitor the new trading account to make sure that it is used for the benefit of land beneficiaries. I thank you.
Madam Chair, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, hon chairperson of the portfolio committee of the portfolio we are discussing now ...
Ndiza kwenza nje amagqabantshintshi ukonga ixesha, ndibe yinxalenye yoku sele kuthethiwe. [I will be brief to save time, and take part in what has already been said.]
I feel exceptionally honoured to be part of this Budget Vote debate today, as it relates to the core of one of the five critical and priority points of our ANC manifesto. Coming from the Eastern Cape rural areas where, wherever you look, you see soil erosion, not only on the land but on the human faces, I am conversant with, and have witnessed abject poverty and suffering endured by rural communities. We would support the budget that seeks to address these disparities suffered and the plight of the rural communities under rural development.
Rural development, land and agrarian transformation is thus a mainstay of the policy of the newly elected South African government. Regrettably ...
... ke maqabane ... [... so comrades ...]
... all the previous speakers have stolen my thunder. Rural development and land affairs are inextricably intertwined with agriculture. We have heard what the Minister of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries in particular was saying. Our President, the hon Jacob Zuma, in his augural speech emphasised, and in his state of the nation address reiterated, that as long as there are workers who struggle to feed their families; communities without clean running water, decent shelter and proper sanitation; rural dwellers unable to make a decent living from the land on which they live; women who are subjected to discrimination and all sorts of other practices of disenfranchisement, the government of South Africa should not rest. This resolve is evidenced by the restructuring of the key government Ministries and departments, ie Rural Development and Land Reform, and Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, with the thrust on rural development, land reform and agrarian transformation, to name but a few.
Likewise, the Premier of the Eastern Cape, Madam Noxolo Kiwiet, in her inauguration speech also stated, and so did other Premiers, that, in line with the ANC manifesto the Eastern Cape government will greatly intensify its rural development initiatives and will be implementing state- facilitated agricultural and agroprocessing programmes, with the aim of creating decent work and addressing food security. The Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform, who has just given us an address, has gone to great lengths on these strategies.
However, it is crucial to understand that for rural development to take place, it is important to understand what is meant by the word "rural", to unpack what and who it refers to. Generally, it is understood to refer to the communal dwellers, who are poor and landless, and those who lead subsistence existences - "iiLali" - to the total exclusion of the rich farmers with vast sprawling land who vigorously engage in economically viable farming activities, agribusinesses, and are consequently well endowed with financial and capital assets, and are vigorously possessive of these ill-gotten gains from black sweat and blood, whilst the blacks, their counterparts, are suffering because of high unemployment, poverty, hunger, and dependency on social welfare grants. This is a gross abnormality and invariably women are at the receiving end.
For rural development to take place, it is imperative to reflect on the root causes of rural as well as urban poverty and underdevelopment in our country, South Africa. These causes are fundamentally historical, ie the native reserve and influx control policies of 1910 to 1948. The legacy of "native reserves" and apartheid policies have left enduring and massive infrastructure backlogs, underdevelopment and unsustainable local economies, lack of institutional capacity to plan and implement development, fragmented service delivery - the list is endless. The premise for rural development is diverse but it is essentially historical, with social, political and ecological effects. Our ANC government still, after so long, is grappling with the demon, but alas, salvation is nigh - we have a new mandate! Watch us during these five years - you will see things! [Applause.]
When the ANC government came into power in 1994, it inherited all the above, and many more not mentioned in the interests of time. This government, believing in the resolve to create a better life for all, put rural development at the centre of its agenda. A host of interventions were undertaken, such as the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme, the ISRDP, which appeared relevant but was abandoned, hence insufficient progress was realised; and the Provincial Growth and Development Plan, the PGDP, which has an agrarian transformation and rural development pillar. These programmes have not fully addressed the inherited problems, but a host of these policy papers affirm government's commitment to rural development. It is one of the reasons why, at the 52nd ANC national conference held at Polokwane, there was a resolve to reassess strategies to redress the backlogs, among which were rural development, land and agrarian relations, propelled by the challenge of translating the hard-won victory of political democratisation into economic democratisation and development, particularly, though not exclusively, in the rural areas of our country. Unprecedented gains earned by the ANC government through transformation over 15 years of democracy being realised, rural area development and poverty eradication still demand attention. The great deal of work needed to attain these has been alluded to, but - Akusheshe, ke nako! [Hurry up, it is time!]
Hon Minister of Rural Development and Land Reform, we appreciate the fact that rural development is not going to adopt the top-down approach to development. It will be profoundly important also that interrelated Ministries, as well as yours, do not only take a "catalystic position", but create an enabling environment by deregulating where necessary. Rural communities more often than not are alert to their needs. Take the Giyani project, which you have alluded to. There are also the Mhlontlo pilot project, pioneered by the Walter Sisulu University in the Eastern Cape, and the Tshani Mankosi fishing and the aquaculture pilot project at Nyandeni in the Eastern Cape. Some rural projects have colossal challenges which cry out for the assistance push of the Ministry of Rural Development and Land Reform, such as the Bumbane rural development project spearheaded by its king, King Buyelekhaya Dalindyebo, in the KSD municipality. The Walter Sisulu University is trying to assist.
Working together with our people in the rural areas ... [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Chairperson, despite the progress made by government to address poverty, people in the rural areas still face high levels of poverty, which results from the lack of access to land and basic services. The fast-tracking of land redistribution to meet government's target is therefore imperative to deal with the call of poverty.
The MF is glad that the Minister has alluded to the fact of reviewing the principles of willing buyer, willing seller. In many instances, this serves as a catalyst. People living in informal settlements have continued to suffer for 15 years. This indicates that land delivery is a priority, which indicates the importance of the finalisation of land claims as well. Therefore, Parliament should be updated regularly on the progress made in the finalisation of redistribution programmes. However, the MF is concerned as to whether the targets of redistribution and the outstanding land claims will be finalised in view of the budgetary constraints. [Time expired.] I thank you.
Madam Chairperson, the question of land lies very near to my heart. I was born on a farm in the Free State and I am married to a farmer from the Eastern Cape. For this reason I believe that I understand the burning issues of land reform very well. Successful land reform in any country is difficult. It is clear that everyone has underestimated the complexity of getting this right in South Africa. Hon Minister, it is a challenging task that lies ahead of us - to address the land question comprehensively. Land remains the basic source of livelihood of the majority of South Africans and is key to the development of agriculture, tourism, mining, housing and industry. The effects of Zimbabwean land reform since 2000 as a dissident model of radical land reform need to be recognised. An important lesson should be learned, that by not addressing the problem of inequitable land and natural resource ownership, we are likely to fuel agitation for radical land reform.
It is therefore imperative that South Africa's skewed patterns of land ownership be addressed. Rural land reform should not be seen in terms of redistribution alone, but should be carried out with the very clear objectives of making life better for the beneficiaries of land reform and increasing the prosperity of South Africa as a whole. Mr Minister, it is therefore very important that we take a critical look at our land reform programme. The question of how many people want land and for what purposes has not been answered satisfactorily. A proper land audit of private land is also outstanding.
Successful farming requires not only money, but also access to agricultural extension services, training and capital for land development. Post- transfer support to beneficiaries has been a critical gap in land reform. A recent review by the Department of Land Affairs indicated that only 49% of land reform projects were sustainable in terms of agricultural production and the livelihoods of beneficiaries.
In die huidige ekonomiese klimaat is dit noodsaaklik om te verseker dat ons ons huis in orde kry, voordat dit oorweeg word om nog miljarde rande ekstra te begroot vir grondhervorming. Kritiese vrae wat beantwoord behoort te word, is of al die poste binne die departement gevul is? Is die personeel wat in hierdie departemente werk behoorlik opgelei? Is daar voldoende programme in plek om nuwe grondeienaars te ondersteun? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[In the current economic climate it is essential to ensure that we put our house in order before we consider committing further millions of rand to land reform. Critical questions that need to be asked are the following: Have all the vacancies in the department been filled? Have the staff members working in the department been properly trained? Are there adequate programmes in place to support new landowners?]
My own answer to these questions is, no. I have personally had correspondence from many frustrated farmers who have shown interest in land reform initiatives which would entail the transfer of land to emerging farmers on a willing buyer, willing seller basis. Not only would this transfer entail the land resources and equipment as ongoing operations, but it would also entail, most importantly, a period of mentorship to ensure a smooth transition and future sustainability. These partnerships would be, to my mind, the only way to ensure that productivity on the farm was maintained, and for that matter increased. In doing this, we would ensure that we once again become net exporters of food. We are not going to afford to be net importers. I agree with what the Minister said earlier about agriculture. We have to ensure that we make the process as easy as possible and not frustrate buyers and sellers with the red tape of all the inefficiencies of the department.
I also do not understand how the department could allow that a farm that was sold to an emerging farmer three years ago could go back onto the market and be sold to a white farmer again. This was the case in my neighbouring town of Venterstad. We have to follow up on these issues to ensure that all land reform programmes succeed. Mr Minister, the categorisation of land reform beneficiaries is a move in the right direction and is something that the DA has been proposing in its policies.
For land reform to work, the various role-players have to trust each other. This requires good leadership, from the presidential to the local level. There has to be a sense of joint commitment to a common destiny. A government-led environment should be urgently created, in which frank discussions of the issues involved is encouraged and practical solutions found. It is in the best interests of all South Africans that we come up with a workable solution. I thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, I am sitting here imagining a situation where a department delivers on its mandate and wondering whether Ms Steyn would really be crying foul on a number of issues that she is raising.
Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, chairperson of the committee, members and fellow South Africans there in the gallery, all philosophers have interpreted the world. The question, however, remains that of how to change it, as one great philosopher said.
A lot has been said, here and elsewhere, about rural development, and the point remains how we bring about change. Mr Swathe and Mr Groenewald, property continues to be an ideological battle area between those who have and, in most instances, have stolen, and those who don't.
Since time immemorial land and property in general have been an area of ideological contestation. Any government that comes to power has to confront this reality, and as such the ANC has taken the side of the marginalised, dispossessed indigenous -hence the many programmes in the direction of restitution and redistribution.
Of course, Mr Swathe, the constraints in our budget are a hindrance towards achieving the objectives as set out in the programmes above. We are here referring to land that was stolen by families of some of us seated on the other side of the room. [Interjections.]
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, please!
Indeed ours is a democracy - how nice! - a democracy hard at work, that we have to argue on these matters. They are so simple and straightforward. One other speaker did ask a question, whether you really have to buy something that was stolen from you. It doesn't make sense. [Interjections.]
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, hon members!
The issue here is that many sellers inflate their prices in this process of willing buyer, willing seller. The question arises again when Mr Swathe talks about market value. Who determines that value? [Interjections.]
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order!
Is that market sensitive to the developmental goals that the country and the nation wishes to achieve? The simple answer is, no.
Amongst other examples that need to be closely looked into in addressing the land question in South Africa, Shenge, is the Ingonyama Trust in KwaZulu-Natal. As a matter of urgency this matter must be relooked at because not only does it deprive the rural communities in KwaZulu-Natal of their constitutional right to the ownership of the land, but it continues to be land used at the whim of His Majesty or his delegated authority. [Interjections.]
Order, hon members!
The Ingonyama Trust and related legislation must be subjected to a review that shall be aimed at rural development.
Linked to the above, the government has encountered resistance from absentee landlords, speculating with unproductive land parcels, especially from some of us who own those pieces of land, and a shortage of resources to distribute processed land.
In conclusion, the ANC remains focused and we are on track in changing the people's lives for the better. The ANC supports this budget. [Applause.]
Hon Chair, the hon Swathe keeps saying the people in Giyani don't know what is happening. Here is the programme, here is the report, dated 11 June.
Now at this place, Muyexe, there are three villages. We have started in Muyexe. There are 2 500 households. We have gone door-to-door to 300 already. Last week on Sunday we counted livestock. I can tell you that there are 621 dogs. So it is real! [Interjections.]
Order, hon members!
Secondly, hon Chair, regarding polarisation ... First of all, I should welcome the spirit displayed by hon members during the debate, including the hon Swathe. I think we will work very closely with him, because he seems to be very keen on understanding what is happening in Giyani. We will make sure that we make him part of our visit next time.
To answer the hon member from the IFP, I think hon Msimang, regarding polarisation: It is correct that there is polarisation between government and traditional leaders, between government and commercial farmers, between government and squatters even. The greatest polarisation, which we must avoid, is polarisation between government and the people. If that were to happen, Zimbabwe would be a picnic compared to South Africa!
The second thing is redress and correction. There is this myth. We ourselves, as hon members, and many other people must understand one other thing: As much as we, as the people who are in government, as parliamentarians, or maybe even professors and analysts out there, understand that there are laws, there is a Constitution and so on, the people out there, the majority of the people we are working with, whom we represent here, do not fully understand the things in the manner that we do. For them, it is firstly redress and correction. On the question of whether there is production and so on - the hon Wilmot is a researcher, he probably knows this better than all of us - people don't actually place so much importance on this thing that we are talking about, that they must produce on the land. They understand that a little bit, but the first thing for them is redress.
Let us deal with this question of redress. The hon members on that side, including the hon Swathe, understand this thing. He comes from that side of the community where people say, "Redress! We lost our land, we want it back. It doesn't matter what we are going do with it. Later on we will correct that and deal with that question." That is the second point. Let us be very realistic here. Let us deal with the question of redress.
The question of conflict between government and traditional leaders is a very important one on land. Traditional leaders hold land in trusts on behalf of the people. Let's again understand that. Because if we were to understand it that way, I think ...
... uMhlekazi uShenge uyazi ngaphezu kwam le nto. Ukuba singavana ngale nto yokuba umhlaba wenkosi ngowabantu. Iinkosi zibambe umhlaba egameni labantu. Masivumelane ngalo ndawo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[... hon Shenge knows this matter more than I do. If only we could agree that traditional leaders hold in trust land which belongs to the people - traditional leaders hold land in trust on behalf of the people. Let us agree on that point.]
Once we agree on that, the issue of ownership in terms of communal land is not an issue at all. What is at issue is that there must be the democratisation of the processes of using that land. That is what we are going to do when we debate this issue ...
... nabahlekazi xa sixoxa nabo asizokuxoxa ubumnini ngoba umhlaba ngowabahlekazi nabantu babo. Sizakuxoxa nabo ngokuba abantu babo abahlekazi balambile, umhlaba ulele. Sithini? Sifuna ukusebenza lo mhlaba. Mabahlale ke, baxoxe njengaseMuyeshe. Ukuba ungabona imifanekiso yenkosi ibhala ebhodini isithi: Masisayine sonke bantu bam ukuba lo mhlaba sizakuwusebenzisa ukuphuhlisa thina sonke.
Yonke le nkqubo ilapha yenziwe ngabo neenkosi. Ithiywe ngaye le lali uNkosi uMuyeshe. Sisixaphothi senkosi. Wayebhala phaya esithi nabantu bakhe mabaze kubhala. Babhala abantwana, babhala ootata, babhala oomama ukuba urhulumente makaphuhlise kulo mhlaba. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[... with the Traditional leaders and we are not going to debate the issue of ownership because the land belongs to traditional leaders and their people. We are going to discuss the fact that their people are starving and the land is not being utilised. What must we do? We want to utilise this land. They can meet and debate like the people of Muyeshe. If only you could see the pictures of that Chief when writing on the board, saying: My people, let us all add our signatures in agreeing that we are going to use this land to develop ourselves.
This process was followed by the Chief and his people. This village is named after him, Chief Muyeshe. This Chief has a towering figure. He was adding his signature and calling for his people to also come and write. Children and their parents also appended their signature in agreeing that government must develop this land.]
It's their land, it's communal land. There shouldn't be a problem. The problem occurs in the manner in which we handle it. We are not going to debate the question of ownership. We are going to debate the question of democratising the utilisation of the land.
There is another matter, which perhaps is my last one: The moral correctness of engaging and negotiating. It took the ANC 80 years to convince previous governments about the moral correctness of negotiation and engaging on resolving problems, but we cannot expect that, on a small issue of land redress, our people should be patient for another 80 years before they explode. They have seen it happen; 80 years were too long, yet the resolution came in exactly the manner that the ANC had said in 1912. It cannot be done now in the same way, and this is the approach we are going to adopt, to say to those who own land that we cannot expect our people to be patient for another 100 years before we correct one small thing. [Applause.] It cannot be so. Before we then get ourselves into a situation ...
Mnr Groenewald, ek verstaan u s daar is kriminele elemente in ons departement. Ek stem saam met u, daar is. Maar die waarheid is dat die meerderheid van ons mense goeie mense is. Die ander ding is geld. Die regering kan nie R71 miljard in vyf jaar mobiliseer nie. Ons kan nie. Ons moet met die mense gesels wat land besit en vir hulle s: (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr Groenewald, I understand you are saying that there are criminal elements in our department. I agree with you, there are. But the truth is that the majority of our people are good people. The other issue is money. The government cannot mobilise R71 billion in five years. We just cannot. We have to talk to the people who own the land and say:]
"We must avoid Zimbabwe here." Because, in comparison, Zimbabwe will look like a picnic. So we must just agree. Forget about the criminal elements, forget about that. The willing buyer, willing seller does not work. Polokwane said that, and we know what it is. Polokwane was the ANC conference. It doesn't work.
There was a summit for landless people in 2005: They were very clear. It doesn't work. We were there. The farmers were there; I was one of the people who stood up and spoke and tried to persuade them. The landless people were very impatient. That was in 2005. They were very impatient about willing buyer, willing seller. It doesn't work, because we don't have money as government. [Interjections.]
Order, hon members!
The point is, hon Chair, there are very well-meaning commercial farmers. I've interacted with them in the Eastern Cape. I have interacted with commercial farmers at Matatiele and in Alexandria. Both of them told me one story, even if they are far from each other, that government shouldn't negotiate with individual farmers. They will exploit government, because government is the only buyer. They said that government should rather negotiate with them as a collective. We know how much land costs per hectare. That is what we are going to do. We are going to work with those farmers and then try to expedite this process.
Secondly, there are inefficiencies. It takes a long time. By the time you buy, the prices are up. We know this. We are going to work fast with the collectives of farmers to resolve the problem, including AgriSA. [Applause.] That's what we are going to do.
Hon members should really understand when we say, in our view, land access and ownership should be a question that is primarily for all South Africans. It shouldn't be a situation where we can't get land because it is too expensive, because it is owned by Americans, Germans, other Europeans and people from outside this country, not Africans, but people from elsewhere. That can't be. It must be prioritised for South Africans. We can't fight here because the majority of people who own land here are overseas. They buy land and game farms. We are saying that South Africa is importing food. The reason we import food is because we are skirting the issue. Land has been changed. It is no longer producing food; it is rearing animals. That is what is happening. Golf courses are owned by overseas people. They are not South Africans. We have to deal with that as South Africans. Thank you, hon Chair. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.