Deputy Chairperson, hon members and Chairperson of the NCOP, I wish to thank the Chairperson and members of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs for the rigorous manner in which the Second-Hand Goods Bill was dealt with in the committee. It was mindful of the potential impact of the Bill on society.
The Bill before you has gone through a thorough process of coming into being, as drafts were first published for comment, after which consultations with the industry role-players took place. The resulting draft was tabled in Nedlac where it was supported.
When the Bill was tabled in the National Assembly, the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security invited comments on the Bill and held public hearings where all stakeholders once again had the opportunity to express their views on the Bill and participate in the legislative process. I recognise that the Bill has taken some time to be shaped through the drafting stages and the legislative processes, but must at the same time impress upon you that the impact of this Bill is considerable and its formulation required the utmost care. The product is a user-friendly Bill that as a formidable crime combating tool will go a long way to protect the interests of law-abiding citizens and businesses alike.
The select committee of this House wisely decided to invite further comments and hold ad hoc public hearings, where stakeholders made significant presentations to the select committee. The select committee heard of the millions of rands involved in the recycling of controlled metals, such as copper, and also of the effect that the Bill will have on the second-hand book trade.
The process of public hearings was repeated in each of the provinces and the resultant provincial mandates produced sensible and important recommendations - recommendations that were robustly interrogated to produce the improvements to the Bill before this House. The select committee's proposals not only strengthen and enrich this Bill, but also serve as an indication of the true democratic nature of the legislative process where Parliament, in this case, was really taken to the people.
The Second-Hand Goods Bill, 2008, aims to regulate the business of dealers in second-hand goods, in order to combat the trade in stolen goods. Trade in stolen goods negatively affects the economy of South Africa, especially as the knock-on effects of the crimes addressed in the Bill are quite serious. Criminals often employ violent means to hijack vehicles and commit robberies, resulting in loss of life or serious injuries.
Theft of copper cable is a major cause of interruptions in the essential services rendered by Eskom, Telkom and Transnet, often resulting in power cuts, communication disruption and crucial transport stoppages, both in freight and passenger services. These significant economic losses are not only borne by business and government because the resulting price and tariff hikes eventually also affect the public.
The Bill intends to repeal the Second-Hand Goods Act, Act 23 of 1955, to update the present legislation - legislation that proved to be insufficient to police the trade in second-hand goods effectively - and to bring it in line with the Constitutional framework of South Africa.
This Bill provides for the registration of second-hand dealers and recyclers by the National Commissioner of the South African Police. The inclusion of recyclers in the registration process is a marked improvement on the current legislation, as unscrupulous recyclers play an important role in the marketplace to create a demand for stolen copper cable and other nonferrous metals.
Dealers must now apply to register each of the business premises on which they intend to carry on their businesses, and those dealers who contravene the Bill may be deregistered. The National Commissioner of the SAPS must deregister those dealers found guilty of offences and disqualify them as dealers or recyclers.
Solid arguments were presented to the select committee on some possibly discriminatory provisions regarding the disqualification of dealers and persons who have a financial interest in those dealers. The select committee responded with thorough deliberations, and the subsequent amendment improves upon that aspect of the Bill. The Bill now allows the National Commissioner to take all aspects regarding disqualifications into consideration and, when necessary, to condone disqualification.
Recommendations regarding second-hand books, second-hand clothing and the registration of charities were also discussed during the select committee's deliberations, and the subsequent amendments all contribute to simplifying the application of the Bill. These amendments focus the impact of the Bill on those industry segments where criminal activity is rife and policing is most needed.
Any administrative process in terms of the Bill that affects the rights of a person must be conducted in a manner consonant with the Promotion of Administrative Justice Act and procedures are prescribed in respect of the decision-making process.
The Bill requires registered dealers and recyclers to keep records of all second-hand goods dealt with. While the current Act also provides for such registers, the Bill improves upon the present situation by providing specifically for comprehensive record keeping where a dealer deals in motor vehicles or communication equipment such as cell phones. The records are not only invaluable to any investigating officer who needs to trace stolen goods, but also to the persons who need to ensure compliance with the Bill.
By dealing with communication equipment as a separate category of second- hand goods, the Bill complements the relevant provisions in the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-related Information Act of 2002, to provide a comprehensive framework to stamp out crimes such as cell phone theft.
An important feature of the Bill is the obligation on dealers to report suspicious transactions to the police. Unscrupulous dealers will be prosecuted for those transactions where second-hand goods are acquired from less than respectable customers or where goods have obviously been tampered with by removing aspects of identification such as serial numbers or cable covers.
A new feature of the Bill that addresses a serious limitation in the current Act is the required registration of metal recyclers. The prohibition on the possession of recycling equipment by persons other than registered metal recyclers and the prohibition regarding the possession, purchase and sale of burnt copper cable will tackle one of the biggest shortcomings experienced in the policing of the industry.
The Bill addresses compliance monitoring effectively by providing for the accreditation of industry associations representing dealers. By allowing accredited dealers' associations to represent dealers, the Bill introduces a measure of self-regulation absent from the current Act. This new feature empowers associations to monitor their members' compliance with the provisions of the Bill, through regular inspections and interaction with the SAPS. Even though the Bill can be implemented without the aspects of self-regulation it introduces, it also recognises the important contribution that these associations can make through the promotion of proper ethical and other standards in the industry.
Accredited associations will furthermore strengthen the role of the SAPS by providing the expertise that exists in the organised industry by, for example, recommending the applications of their members. It is a fact that some sectors of the industry are highly specialised, necessitating support from the organised industry. To ensure that the associations play a positive part in combating crime, the Bill tasks associations to establish minimum legal and ethical standards and to maintain those standards through inspections. Members of accredited associations may be exempted from certain provisions of the Bill in cases where the associations prescribe to their members standards which fulfil the requirements of the Bill and where the spirit and principles of the Bill are guaranteed.
On the enforcement side, the Bill draws a distinction between routine police inspections and criminal investigations. The Bill provides that a comprehensive inspection must be performed by the SAPS at least once a year at each dealer, but that further routine inspections may be performed during business hours.
Where, however, criminal activity is suspected and needs to be investigated, the Bill aligns the powers of search and seizure with those in the Criminal Procedure Act of 1977, thereby ensuring that police powers comply with constitutional requirements. It is noteworthy that the Bill introduces a new feature in that the SAPS are able to obtain a warrant authorising them to seal off a business for purposes of an investigation, where necessary, thereby ensuring effective investigations.
A new feature of the Bill that introduces the principle of co-operative governance is the power of the National Commissioner to delegate in writing any functions conferred upon him or her by the Bill to any official in the service of the state or employed by a statutory body. An official to whom a function has been so delegated, must obviously perform the functions subject to the control and directions of the National Commissioner. This aspect will contribute to effective and co-ordinated law enforcement in policing the industry.
The Bill provides for regulations that the Minister of Safety and Security may make. These regulations may be crafted to provide for the unique requirements of each industry sector, and it is envisaged that the regulations will dovetail with the prescribed minimum standards of the associations.
I believe that the Bill creates a framework to serve as a platform for co- operation between government and the industry. I therefore repeat our appeal to the industry made in the NA on 19 March 2008, to organise itself into associations which can be accredited, and to participate in developing appropriate standards in respect of each industry segment.
Chairperson, I submit the Second-Hand Goods Bill, as amended by the portfolio committee, for acceptance. I thank you.
Chairperson, let me take this opportunity on behalf of my detachment to welcome the hon Minister to the cluster. I want to assure the hon Minister that he is going to get the maximum support and co- operation from this cluster and from this detachment, the Mokoena detachment. [Laughter.]
Chairperson, I am elated and happy that the Minister has done the difficult part of explaining the objects of the Bill. What remains for me is to continue and deal with some of the issues that were raised during the deliberations. Let's face it: We have a serious problem with syndicates in our country. They range from chop-shops to those who are dealing in scrap metal, copper, etc. The question is: How can we deal with this kind of crime in our country?
It is so unfortunate that some of these syndicates and individuals are being protected by the very same people who are supposed to arrest them. It is so unfortunate that some of our law-enforcement agencies are on the payroll of these syndicates.
Another challenge is people who buy stolen goods from people who don't even have shops to sell a needle. I am happy to say this Bill, the Second-Hand Goods Bill, will, in a way, bring these illegal practices to an end. There are measures that have been put in place in this Bill and it will go a long way towards punishing those unwanted elements and those who are dealing in stolen goods. I won't go very much into law enforcement, but the hon Mack and hon Moseki will deal with it.
Let me address the question of the amended version that the committee brought before this Bill. Members are aware that in many of our communities, especially in rural areas, there are many of our poor women who travel in trains and buses to Durban every week or every month to buy second-hand clothes. In my detachment we have decided that unfortunately we don't support the requirement that our poor women will be expected to be registered to buy and sell these second-hand clothes which they do in order to support their families. They are an example of people who have started from humble beginnings, who are selling clothes.
Let's look at our very own Richard Maponya, the owner of the Maponya Mall. He started in Tzaneen, GaMaake, selling second-hand clothes and, because he was not restricted, look where he is now. Hence we said that there is no way in which we, as a committee, can support such a draconian provision in our legislation. That would have a negative impact on these poor women and people of our country who are relying solely on the income from selling second-hand clothes.
There are communities who are, as we speak, in the dark. They don't have electricity; not because there is load-shedding, not because of technical faults, not because they didn't buy electricity cards. It is because some lunatics, who behave like Satanists and who are working for syndicates, stole those cables. Hence our people are in the dark as we speak. It was not easy to deal with this kind of crime. This industry that deals in second-hand goods was not properly regulated, but thanks to the Minister, this Bill will address that trade effectively.
The Bill obliges dealers to keep detailed records of all transactions where they bought goods worth more than R100. If you don't do that, you are committing an offence. There is an obligation, as the Minister rightly said, on dealers to ensure that the goods they buy are not stolen.
Immediately when this Bill becomes an Act, dealers will be prohibited from acquiring goods from persons under the age of 18. I know my colleagues are aware that, in terms of South African law, persons under the age of 18 cannot conclude agreements without the consent of their parents.
What is good about this Bill is that if you buy second-hand goods, you must keep it for seven days before you can tamper with it. Why are we doing this? It is because there are people who will buy a car today and spray it the following morning to change the colour. You ask yourself, why? You know the reason.
What is good, again, about this Bill is that the Minister can exempt some people or dealers from registering if there are good reasons to do so. It won't be a one-size-fits-all. What is also good about this Bill is that if there are reasons for you to make an appeal to the National Commissioner, your request will be looked at and be approved if there are reasons for you to do that.
Another relief is that this Bill does not regulate private transactions. That is, if there is a private transaction between two persons, the law does not deter you from doing that. All dealers who want to deal with second-hand goods will have to apply through the National Commissioner. Of course, the National Commissioner will exercise his or her right to approve or deny your application to register.
One other provision in this Bill that will excite the members is that if as a private citizen, as was rightly said by the Minister, you suspect that a particular individual is busy committing an offence you are allowed to exercise what we call a citizen's arrest. Immediately after you have done that, please report to your nearest law-enforcement agency. You can also, if you reasonably believe that this person is about to commit an offence, do what I said.
The other question that I was asked by my province and stakeholders is: What is going to happen to someone who sells those used goods or those old tyres or those who are operating a spaza shop selling smaller items like starter packs or sim cards? Feel free, you are safe as long as you are doing your transactions transparently.
Members of this committee spent more time trying to deal with the same concern. I want to assure those people that those kinds of dealers will not be affected. The aim of this Bill is not to frustrate our poor people. There is a provision that enables the National Commissioner to exempt some of these categories, as I said. The committee is very careful not to burden our people unnecessarily.
I know Members of Parliament are honest. I want to believe that there is no- one in this House who once bought a television through the back door. I know there are Members of this Parliament who have not bought stolen goods, and who have not bought tyres through the back door. I know there are Members of this Parliament who haven't bought car parts through the back door. I know members are very honest, hon Krumbock.
My appreciation - hon Minister, I must say this - goes to Director Van der Walt. He is one of those South Africans, hon Minister, of whom I am not ashamed to say if there is space for you to promote him, by all means do so. He is such a wonderful guy who assisted the committee. Even when we had our meeting in the Free State, when we knocked off at 1 am, he was there to assist us. My time has expired. Let us support the Bill. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members. Firstly, I would like to acknowledge the co-author of my brilliant speech here today, my colleague Mr Le Roux. He unfortunately cannot be here.
The Second-Hand Goods Bill, also sometimes referred to as the Stolen Goods Bill, is in essence a fight against crime and an attempt to promote ethical standards in the second-hand goods trade.
The committee debated the Bill at length and unanimously supported this Bill. We all know that the theft of goods and especially copper cables is costing our country billions of rand each year. Huge factories, our communication network and our transport system are often crippled by criminal activities. The public at large suffers as a result of this theft and in the end pays the penalty in higher taxes and lower wages as a result of the loss of man hours.
Voorsitter, dit was baie duidelik dat die komitee 'n balans moet vind tussen die mate van regulering wat nodig is in die bedryf en die gevaar van oorregulering, wat die bedryf ernstig kan benadeel. In die oorspronklike wetsontwerp was daar wel 'n groot gevaar dat sommige klousules die bedryf sou skaad. Die handel in tweedehandse goedere is reusagtig en verdien belangrike buitelandse valuta. Skrootyster alleen verdien etlike miljarde valuta, met uitvoer veral na China en Indi.
Oor die algemeen is hierdie handel arbeidsintensief en skep dit werk vir duisende mense. Die komitee verdien lof vir die manier waarop daar aan elk van die probleemklousules aandag gegee is. Uiteindelik het ons 'n wetsontwerp wat die publiek beskerm, waarmee die sakesektor kan saamleef en wat misdaad sal bekamp.
Wat die wetsontwerp self betref, word daar vereis dat die sakesektor noulettend rekenskap moet kan gee van presies van wie produkte gekoop word en aan wie produkte verkoop word. Hierdie rekords moet stiptelik gehou word en ten alle tye beskikbaar wees vir inspeksie deur die Suid-Afrikaanse Polisie. Volle besonderhede van alle transaksies moet geboekstaaf word en die rekords moet vir vyf jaar bewaar word.
Die wetsontwerp vereis ook dat alle handelaars geregistreer word en aan die vereistes van die wetsontwerp voldoen. So, byvoorbeeld, sal persone met 'n kriminele rekord nie kan handel dryf nie.
Die wetsontwerp vereis ook dat indien 'n handelaar enigsins vermoed dat gesteelde items aan hom aangebied word, die polisie onmiddellik in kennis gestel moet word. Goedere wat aangekoop word, mag nie binne sewe dae herverkoop word nie. Dit was ook duidelik vir die komitee dat sommige bedrywighede nie aan al die vereistes van die wet sal kan voldoen nie en daarom is die tweedehandse handel in boeke en klerasie vrygespreek van die vereistes in die wetsontwerp.
Die wetsontwerp maak ook voorsiening daarvoor dat liefdadigheidsorganisasies onthef kan word van die verpligtinge van die wetsontwerp. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Chairperson, it was very clear that the committee had to find a balance between the extent of regulation required in the industry and the danger of overregulation, which could seriously harm the industry. In the original Bill there was a very real danger that some of the clauses would harm the industry. The trade in second-hand goods is enormous, earning vital foreign currency. Scrap metal alone earns several billions' worth, with exports to China and India.
In general this trade is labour-intensive and it creates work for thousands of people. The committee deserves praise for the way in which each one of the problematic clauses has been attended to. At last we have a Bill which protects the public, which the business sector can live with and which will combat crime.
As regards the Bill itself, it is required from the business sector to be able to account precisely from whom products are bought and to whom products are sold. These records must be kept accurately and should be available at all times for inspection by the SA Police Service. Full particulars of all transactions must be recorded and these records must be kept for five years.
The Bill also requires all traders to be registered and to comply with the Bill's provisions. As such, for instance, a person with a criminal record will not be able to trade.
If a trader in any way suspects that he is being offered stolen goods, the Bill requires him to inform the police immediately. No goods that have been purchased may be resold within seven days. It was also clear to the committee that some activities would not meet the requirements of the legislation and therefore the second-hand trade in books and clothing have been exempted from the provisions of the Bill.
The Bill also provides that welfare organisations can be exempted from the requirements of the Bill.]
In Chapter 3 the Bill provides for the establishment of accredited dealers' associations. The aim of these associations is to self-regulate their members and to enforce ethical standards. In clause 41 of the Bill the Minister may make regulations to ensure that the objectives of the Bill can, in fact, be achieved.
All provinces supported the Bill in principle, but certain concerns were raised. The Eastern Cape raised a valid concern as to whether the SAPS has the capacity to enforce the Bill. This raises the interesting point that good legislation is meaningless if the capacity to enforce it is lacking.
Voorsitter, die handel in gesteelde goedere is vir ons almal in Suid-Afrika 'n baie groot probleem. Hierdie wetsontwerp skep 'n raamwerk waarin handelaars, die polisie en die publiek kan saamwerk om misdaad te bekamp. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Chairperson, the trade in stolen goods is a very big problem for all of us in South Africa. This Bill creates a framework within which traders, the police and the public can work together in order to combat crime. I thank you.]
Chairperson and hon Minister, it is good to be back here, and I thank you for the opportunity to share some thoughts with you.
It is indeed an undeniable fact that the previous limited restraints in the regulated status of the second-hand goods industry have for far too long preserved the breeding ground for active criminality.
The criminal activity in this particular industry was often concealed by the fact that dealers who operate in this industry were not effectively held accountable for the methods that they employed to propagate criminal trends.
Hon Chairperson, I have no doubt that the House is comprehensively knowledgeable and that the second-hand goods industry is responsible for the supply and sale of a wide variety of goods across the board. These goods include motor vehicles, jewellery, household and office equipment, clothing, books, factory equipment, antique goods, agricultural implements, controlled metals and many others.
We do not have to go too far to examine the effects of cable theft, particularly here in the Western Cape, which often negatively affects railway transportation. The House might also have knowledge of the fact that Metrorail, alongside rail commuters, often has to bear the brunt and inconvenience of cable theft while incurring exorbitant expenses.
This Bill provides a mechanism to ensure that traders are obliged not to accept stolen goods by means of checks and balances that are put in place by law.
I therefore believe that this Bill is undoubtedly responding effectively to previous parlous vindictiveness in the trade of second-hand goods, where dealers often escaped the law unscathed for accepting stolen goods without any recourse for the public who had to bear the brunt of their actions.
The legal framework of this Bill will also curb the hardened criminality that ensured stolen goods were easily diffused in the marketplace without being traceable.
I want to emphasise, Chairperson, that I am particularly pleased with the clause pertaining to the policing aspects of this Bill, which allows the police to make this law enforceable.
The police are being granted the correct mandate to monitor dealerships in order to ensure that they, as well as the goods which they accept, are registered. This Bill will also ensure that property crime decreases in some way, by ensuring that the market for stolen goods is somehow reduced.
The police will also be able to conduct at least one comprehensive annual inspection of each registered premises during which the records of the business will be examined.
I believe that these measures and various other clauses will serve as a deterrent to dealers who keep the illegal sale of stolen goods active, when they are not held effectively accountable for their participation in these kinds of criminal activities.
I am therefore firmly of the opinion that the Second-Hand Goods Bill will indeed play a fundamental role in promoting ethical standards in the trade of second-hand goods, with the involvement of the police ensuring adherence and compliance. Therefore, as a province, we support this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, Chairperson, the deputy chairperson of the committee, hon Minister, MECs, Members of Parliament, special delegates, comrades and guests.
Alle partye stem saam oor hierdie wetsontwerp, al die provinsies stem saam en dit skyn vir my almal praat dieselfde storie, so in my toespraak het ek al s baie uitgehaal ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [All parties agree on this Bill, all the provinces agree and it appears they are all speaking with one voice, hence I have already left out so much from my speech ...]
I don't think there is anything left for me to say. However, there are a few things that I have picked up on my own and I need to give some introductory remarks.
The Second-Hand Goods Bill was adopted by the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs with further amendments, and seeks to repeal the Second-Hand Goods Act, Act 23 of 1955. Currently the Act regulates the second-hand industry and provides for a legislative framework within which dealers in second-hand goods could or should operate.
According to the memorandum attached to the Bill, the drafters of the old Act could never have foreseen the major developments in technology since the year 1955. It was also the year in which the Freedom Charter was adopted.
Chairperson, it has been found that the principal Act is not adequate to prevent trade in stolen goods. The Act, furthermore, is not able to regulate the growing technological trade in second-hand and stolen goods. It appears that the Bill has to respond to the challenges of the industry and facilitate effective policing. The Bill should make it easy for the SAPS to deal with the growing market irregularities.
The Second-Hand Goods Bill was adopted by the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs with further amendments and seeks to repeal the Second-Hand Goods Act, Act 23 of 1955. [Interjections.]
Dan is daar reeds verwys na die wegraak en die steel van kabels, en Telkom het ook al aangedui dat die waarde van kabels wat weggeraak het, R863 miljoen beloop. Wat my bekommer, Minister, is dat ek nrens in die wetsontwerp opgemerk het waar di spesifieke saak aangepak word nie. Ek wil net gou in Engels voorlees ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mention has already been made of the disappearance and the theft of cables, and Telkom has also indicated that the value of missing cables amounts to R863 million. What concerns me, Minister, is that nowhere have I seen this Bill addressing this particular aspect. I just briefly want to read to you in English ...]
As lawmakers we are saying to criminals and "tikkoppe" ...
... en tik is veral die dwelmprobleem in die Wes-Kaap ... [... and tik is the main drug problem in the Western Cape ...]
... that your days are numbered and that our community, businesses and government can't accept or tolerate this anymore.
Vir my is ons groot uitdaging en probleem wanneer 'n vader, 'n moeder of jong seuns 'n mikrogolfoond of 'n ketel uit die huis neem, en hulle wettige identiteitsdokumente het, kan hulle dit gaan ruil as hul eie. Dis ook nie steel nie; dis hul eiendom wat hulle nou gaan ruil vir geld om dwelms mee te koop. Dit verarm die familie.
Die groter bekommernis is wanneer ons eie mense s arm is en s swaarkry dat hulle hul huishoudelike meubels en eiendom vir kos verkoop. Ek weet nie ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[To me our great challenge and problem lies in the fact that when a father, a mother or young boys remove a microwave oven or kettle from home, and they have valid identity documents, they are able to exchange it as their own. It is also not theft; it is their own property that they are exchanging for money in order to buy drugs. This impoverishes the family.
The greater concern is when our people are so poor and their hardship so great that they sell their household furniture and property for food. I do not know ...]
I am struggling to see how we are going to address this, to see to it that our people do not do this to themselves.
Ek dink nie ons kan dit in wetgewing sit nie, maar ons moet 'n manier kry om die probleem op te los, want dit is wat gebeur. Mense verkoop hulle eie huishoudelike goedere by pandjieswinkels en skrootwerwe vir kos, wat 'n tragedie is, en dan ook vir dwelms, wat 'n groot bekommernis is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[I do not think we can legislate this, but we have to find a way to solve the problem, because that is what happens. People resort to selling their own household goods to pawn shops and scrapyards for food, which is tragic, and then also for drugs, which is a major concern.]
We are also expressing this to dealers who know that these items or cables are stolen, but because of their money-making need, they care more about the money than they do about service delivery, the rule of law or about our own people.
Ek wil ook graag beklemtoon dat ons die wetgewing met betrekking tot die koop en verkoop van gesteelde goedere, die mark daar buite en alles wat ons doen, saam moet inspan. Ons kan nie net s ons fokus nou net op die skrootwerf of net op die pandjieswinkel nie. Wanneer die polisie uitgaan, moet hulle die bre wetgewing toepas, want die handel in tweedehandse goedere en die skrootwerwe en so meer is baie wyer as net inneem en geld kry. Dit dryf mense tot ander dinge! Dit wil s, die hele wet moet brer ingespan word.
Ek haal nou net sekere goed aan uit my toespraak, want baie daarvan is reeds genoem deur ander mense. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[I also wish to emphasise that we should use the legislation pertaining to the buying and selling of stolen goods in conjunction with the general market and everything else we are doing. We cannot simply say that we are focusing only on scrapyards or pawnshops at the moment. Whenever the police go out, they should apply the broader legislation, because the trade in second-hand goods, scrapyards and so forth is far broader in scope than merely accepting goods in exchange for money. It drives people to other things! In other words, the entire law should be applied in a broader sense.
I am now only quoting from certain parts of my speech, as much of it has already been covered by other speakers.]
I also want to say the select committee has brought some amendments: On page 2 of the Bill omit "limit" and insert "combat" in the title of the Bill; in clause 1, line 44, insert "books" and "clothing" as goods to be exempted from strict regulations. Ander agb lede het daaroor uitgewei. Dan word daar iets belangriks genoem. Daar word ges hierdie wetgewing moet ook klein ondernemings bevoordeel. Ek wil net hier iets uitlig. Ons het klein ondernemings in stedelike gebiede en in plattelandse gebiede, byvoorbeeld, die Karoo, en my lieflingplek, Beaufort-Wes, waarvandaan ek kom.
As iemand aluminium in die stad verkoop, gaan hy argumentshalwe R10 per kg kry. As 'n klein onderneming in Beaufort-Wes aluminium verkoop, gaan hy R5 per kg kry - dit is 'n besigheidsverskynsel. Maar die groter onderneming in die stad ry met sy trok Beaufort-Wes toe en koop goedere vir R5 en kom verkoop dit dan weer in die stad vir R10. Dit wil s ons ondernemings op die platteland het al klaar 'n nadeel.
Dit kan waarskynlik nie in hierdie wetgewing aangespreek word nie, maar dit gaan oor die persepsie dat alle sakeondernemings voordeel moet trek. Ek wil darem net 'n lansie vir die plattelandse ondernemings breek sodat ons kan kyk hoe ons hulle werklik kan bevoordeel, want dit is waar die armstes van die armes woon. Baie dankie, Voorsitter. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Other hon members have elaborated on that point. Then something important is mentioned. It is said that this legislation should also allow for small enterprises to benefit. At this point I just wish to point out something. We have small enterprises in urban areas as well as rural areas such as the Karoo and my favourite place, Beaufort West, where I hail from.
For the sake of argument, if someone sells aluminium in the city he gets R10 per kg. If a small enterprise in Beaufort West sells aluminium, it will get R5 per kg - that is a business phenomenon. However, the medium enterprise in the city will send its truck to Beaufort West to buy the goods for R5 and come and sell it again in the city for R10. In other words, our rural enterprises are already at a disadvantage.
It can probably not be addressed in this piece of legislation, but it deals with the perception that all business enterprises should benefit equally. However, I really want to take up the cudgels for enterprises in the rural areas so that we can look at ways in which they can actually benefit, because that is where the poorest of the poor live. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]]
Thank you, Chairperson, hon Minister, Members of Parliament ...
... nam mandizibulisele ngokuhlwa nje. [... let me greet you all this evening.]
I rise here on behalf of the Eastern Cape government to support the Bill. The Joint Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security and Economic Affairs, Environment and Tourism conducted a series of public hearings all over the province from 14 to 17 July 2008. All these public hearings were a success.
During the meeting on the negotiating mandate, the Eastern Cape raised issues that came out of the public hearings. Some of those issues were contained or captured in the Bill and we are happy with that. There is one issue, however, Minister, which we thought had been captured, but we are saying as the province that it was not captured in the way we wanted.
With regard to the issue that deals with the specialised unit within the SAPS, in our view as the province, we still feel very strongly that with the capacity problems of the SAPS, we need to have a unit which is going to specialise in and deal with this Second-Hand Goods Bill. It would be the same as we have with the stock theft units and other units that deal with firearms and their control. If you don't have that you will have problems with compliancy.
We hear what the response of the department is. It is saying that one can't have all these issues in the Bill, as they are operational matters. But we are saying, Minister, that those operational matters must find expression in the local and provincial police stations for SAPS members to do the enforcement part of it. It is clear that proper enforcement of this legal framework will curtail the selling of stolen goods by criminals through this industry. The obvious expectation in our province is that once the Bill is passed into legislation it will have a significant impact on reducing crime, especially organised crime. The successful fight against crime requires an integrated involvement of a wide cross-section of role-players; thus we think the Bill will do exactly that.
The Eastern Cape is the second largest province in the country. It is mainly comprised of vast rural areas and the following features of the social and economic context are directly relevant to the problems of crime and safety in this province. There is widespread and deep-rooted poverty, with some 67% of the provincial population living below the poverty line.
There is a glaring disparity in the provincial economy between the rich and poor. Rural unemployment and poverty remains high, with government services and welfare grants being the mainstay of rural local economies. There is a high and rising rate of HIV/Aids prevalent in the province and health care challenges are also a problem.
Besides combating dealings in stolen goods, the Bill will also have a socioeconomic impact on society, which includes economic growth and broadening of the tax base through the increased number of registered and tax-abiding businesses. The Bill has direct licensing costs, which entail administrative costs, equipment, database maintenance and vetting of applicants.
Failure to adequately enforce and monitor this legislation may result in unlicensed traders operating, thus negating the objectives of the Bill. Through the Bill's stringent controls for dealing with second-hand goods, the Bill will contribute to tackling the trade in stolen goods and organised crime by removing and minimising the commercial benefits of trading in stolen goods. This entails stolen vehicles, cell phones and copper cables.
Most important is the seven days waiting period, applicable to the automotive industry, or any other industry for that matter, before cars or goods that are acquired can be disposed of. Second-hand goods dealers or pawnbrokers are required to maintain and retain transaction records and proper registers.
This information is to be made available to police and authorised officers, when required. This will enable the police to identify stolen goods. This Bill also requires an identity document to be produced when selling goods to shops or scrap metal dealers to prevent the buying of stolen goods.
In the Eastern Cape we have witnessed a spate of thefts of municipal property in recent weeks, such as water taps and drainage lids to be sold to scrap metal dealers. These incidents deprive the people of the services, like water, and pose a serious danger to them. With the requirement that an identity document has to be produced, it will be difficult for people to sell stolen items.
Through the provision of a regulatory environment that protects legitimate business and promotes competition, the Bill will instil confidence and create conditions conducive to business growth. The licensing of special goods categories will provide consumers with an assurance that a potential supplier has been examined and possesses a sound record and skills covered by the licence. In terms of penalties, we are saying it will also help the culprits.
Chairperson, we therefore support the Bill and welcome the fact that this committee has called us to come and have a bite at these deliberations. I thank you.
Sihlalo, angithokoze kuNgqongqoshe unwele olude. Kuyahlupha khona ukuthi uma niye navumelana ngo-elethu ngoMthethosivivinywa uthi uyabhala nokubhala phansi ngoba akuyi kukusiza ngalutho ngoba uhlabelela ingoma eyodwa. Ngiyengakhetha ukuthi ake ngithi ukuthi nje cezu kancane. Ngqongqoshe, siyawamukela umthetho siyiNkatha yeNkululeko ukuthi lo mthetho uphuzile noko ukufika bekufuneka ngabe wafika kudalo.
Indaba yokuthi siwuvume nayi lapho ikhona manje ngibhekise kulabaya abafowethu nodadewethu abathenga impahla kubafana. Uyavalwa lowo mgodi akusekubuye kubekhona ukuthenga impahla kubafana. Bengicela kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi nikubhekisise phela singabheki kuma "scrap yard".
Asibheke laba bantu abathenga impahla kubafana, umfana uza ethengisa umabonakude, inkinga yomabonakude ukuthi ayinayo inombolo kulayisensi yami ukuthi lena-ke inombolo ekamabonakude othize. Ngingaba nomabonakude abangamashumi amabili kodwa ngibe nelayisensi kamabonakude owodwa. Yingakho ngithi akesibhekisise ukuthi masimthola lo othenge kubafana iqine ingalo yomthetho.
Ngize kulokhu kwama "scrap yard". Ngiyabona Ngqongqoshe, kukhona inkinga esibanayo izimoto ziyantshontshwa. Uma beyintshontsha manje basithela ngapha bafake izinombolo okungezona, zomgunyathi. Awuseyi kuyibona noma amaphoyisa eyilindile ngale sekuvele kuqhamuke imoto enezinombolo ezehlukile zomgunyathi.
Ngikusho lokhu ngoba indodakazi bake bantshontsha inqola yakhe, ngemva kwezinsuku ezithize eyibikile ukuthi ilahlekile yatholakala imile emgwaqeni. Angazi ukuthi wayekuphi umshayeli waleyo nqola ngoba amaphoyisa uma efika eyibheka, ebuka izinombolo zenqola kudisk kwatholakala ukuthi azifani base beyidonsa imoto futhi asekhumbula icala elibikiwe.
Into yokuqala engayibuza ephoyiseni yikuthi lezo zinombolo ezatholakala lapho zazibhaliswe kubani kwasekuqaleni? Iphoyisa laphendula ngokuthi kusalindwe ochwepheshe abasebenza ngeminwe ukuthi bazositshela ukuthi kwenzekani. Inombolo yenqola! Nizobheka lapho bebekhwathakhwathaza khona.Inombolo yenqola ayidingi uchwepheshe osebenza ngeminwe, idinga uthole ukuthi yayibhaliswe kwinqola kabani kwasekuqaleni.
Ngakho-ke kuzofuneka uqine umthetho ngokukhishwa kwezinombolo zezinqola ngoba umuntu uyalaphaya ayothenga inombolo yenqola. Ufika athini? Uthi inombolo yenqola ilahlekile, loko siyakwazi ukuthi inombolo yenqola iyalahleka umuntu ayicoshe emgwaqeni, kodwa uma usuyoyisikisa akutholakale ukuthi kwakungubani lowo muntu, nalapho kuthengiswa khona izinombolo zezimoto akulawulwe.
Kufuneka kube nomthetho ochaza kahle ukuthi izinombolo zezinqola bazithengisa kanjani, bathengisela bani, ngesikhathi esinjani futhi izinqola ngeke zintshontshwe uma kungenziwa kanjalo; ngoba indlela okusetshenzwa ngayo yiyona imbangela yokuthi zintshontshwe. Ithi ingalahleka bedlule ngayo phambi kwakho sebeyipendile, futhi isinenombolo entsha babuye bakugibeze wena mnikazi wayo. Uthi usuphakathi uyincome ukuthi ihamba kahle njengaleyo obuhamba ngayo kanti uncoma imoto yakho. Ukhuluma nje ngeyakho lenqola eseyinezinombolo ezintsha. Yilokho Ngqongqoshe ebengithi kungakuhle sikuqaphele, sikubukisise yikho engikubone ukuthi singakhuluma ngakho kodwa ngithi namhlanje icebo labafana lokudayisa liyavalwa. Sithi sifaka izichibiyelo zokuthi akungabe kusathengwa. Laphaya eThokoza kukhona laba abahamba emgwaqeni ababizwa ngokuthi "thiba ka moo" bacelile kubahlali bathi siyanicela bazali bethu ukuthi musani ukuthenga izimpahla ezebiwe ngoba uma ukewatholakala uzithenga uzothola isibhaxu esivela kubo "thiba ka moo". Umthethosivivinywa siyawesekela. [Ihlombe] (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, Minister, greetings to you all. It's a little bit difficult and worrying to find that a Bill has been unanimously supported, and there comes at least one fly in the ointment opposing that Bill. I think that would not help anyone because it is in any event pointless to mention one thing without results all the time. Today I decided to diverse slightly. Hon Minister, as the Inkatha Freedom Party, we support this Bill, even though it came very late. In fact, it was long overdue.
The reason we are supporting this Bill is the following: I am now talking about those brothers and sisters who buy stolen goods. Sadly for them, that door is now permanently closed and they will never be buying from thieves again. I am pleading with you, hon Minister, that you should scrutinise these cases, and also that we should not only concentrate on scrap yards.
We must watch more closely the people who buy goods from thieves. What happens is that the thieves would come to you selling a television set. And the problem with the television sets is that they do not have their serial numbers written on your licence to indicate that this TV licence is for a particular television set. I can have twenty television sets with one TV licence. And it is for this very reason that I say if someone is found to have bought something from thieves, let the law take its course.
Let me now come to the issue of scrap yards. Hon Minister, we have a problem, our cars are stolen. If they steal your car, they just go around the corner and remove the original registration plates and put on fake ones. You would never recognise it; even if the police were waiting ahead for it, they would never recognise it because it would then have fake registration plates.
I am saying this because my daughter had her car stolen. Just a few days after she reported it stolen, it was found parked on the road. I do not know where the driver was because when the police arrived, they checked the registration plates against the car disk and they discovered that they did not correspond. Thereafter, they towed the car and they also remembered a reported case of a stolen vehicle.
My first question to a police officer on the scene was in whose name were the registration plates. And he said they are still waiting for the fingerprint experts to tell what is happening. That surprised me and I asked the police whether it made any sense to wait for the fingerprint experts just to confirm the ownership of the registration plates. I was then told that fingerprint experts would first have to lift fingerprints. Now, identifying car registration plates does not need fingerprint experts, but it only needs the information as to in whose name the registration plates were registered in the first place.
Therefore, the law concerning the issuing of car registration plates should be enforced strictly because now it seems that any person can simply go and buy car registration plates. And when a person gets there, what does he say? It's simple. He says that he lost his registration plates. Now, we all know that registration plates can get lost, and usually someone will pick them up on the road. And if someone is trying to use the numbers on those registration plates, there should be a way to detect as to who the owner of those numbers was. The places that sell registration plates should be regulated.
There must be an Act to regulate the selling of car registration plates, and also to monitor who these car registration plates are being sold to and also the conditions under which these are sold. Regulation is very important because it is its absence that leads to cars being stolen. Once your car is stolen, they simply repaint it, put in false registration plates and drive it around in front of you. Above that, they will also give you a lift in your own car. And once you get inside, you would start praising the car for its balances, not knowing that you are praising your own car. It would be your car with different registration plates.
Hon Minister, that is all I wanted us to be aware of and pay attention to. But today I am saying to thieves out there, their strategy of selling stolen goods is finished. We are saying we are making amendments to stop the buying of goods from them now. In Thokoza there is Operation Thiba Ka Moo, and residents there were kindly asked to stop buying stolen goods. They were clearly told that once it comes to the operation's attention that a certain person is buying stolen goods, that person would be punished by the Operation Thiba Ka Moo team. We support the Bill. [Applause.]]
Mr M SITHEBE (KwaZulu-Natal): Hon Minister, Deputy Chair, Chairperson of the Select Committee on Safety and Security, permanent members and special delegates, it is an honour to take part in this debate on the Second-Hand Goods Bill.
The Second-Hand Goods Bill enjoys immense support among the electorate. We conducted three public hearings in the province as per mandate of the Constitution, especially section 72, which mandates us to consult adequately with the electorate out there when we are to enact an Act. Thus, as the NCOP, we decided to embark on this process. And when it comes to the NCOP - that is section 118 - after public participation in the form of public hearings, we met as the Portfolio Committee on Community Safety and Liaison to confer the mandate. We supported the Second-Hand Goods Bill of 2008.
The Bill is informed and influenced by the developmental agenda of the ANC- led government which will ultimately improve the lives of our people. The Bill seeks to repeal the obsolete or outdated Second-Hand Goods Act, Act 23 of 1955, and the Second-Hand Goods Amendment Act, Act 18 of 1978, as well as some sections of outdated Acts of 1956, such as section 21, and the General Law Amendment Act of 1957, section 43 and 44; and finally abolish the restriction on the Jurisdiction of Courts Act of 1996, section 7.
It is essential to note the tremendous intended impact which will be achieved on the lives of all our people in the country. Thus, we see this particular Bill as one that will create a mechanism that will curb the copper and cable theft that we are experiencing, which impacts negatively on the socioeconomic milieu of our people. We are saying this is the Bill that provides a particular mechanism to help us deal with a particular issue and to attend to the developmental agenda that we have set as government to improve the lives of our people.
The rate of theft will be drastically reduced since second-hand dealers are obliged to keep records of all the information that is stipulated in the Bill. That information must be accurate. Punitive measures will be taken if false information is provided. Even then we are saying we are a caring government because those accredited entities will be given 30 days' grace before the National Commissioner will take punitive measures against them. This shows that this Bill is very sensitive to the services that are rendered to the people and also the lives that our people should lead.
The Constitution provides clear grounds for transforming our country and society. The Freedom Charter advocated that there shall be houses, security and comfort. Through this particular Bill, the ANC-led government is determined to create a climate that is conducive to our people leading decent lives without fear of burglaries.
The prophets of doom are proven wrong through such noble initiatives. We have stated that we need to create a better society, and this is the tool and mechanism that is heeding that road map, and we are saying that is the challenge we are faced with.
The other thing that I would like to raise, which was raised in quite a number of those public hearings that we conducted in the province, is that it would be prudent for us to enjoin the Minister to look at the possibility of setting up at least some sort of unit that will deal with this. That is something that was raised in the Eastern Cape, so that we can have some sort of hands-on approach to this type of problem, because it is a new challenge that we are faced with and we want to curb this type of crime that we are experiencing in our country.
We, as KwaZulu-Natal, support the Second-Hand Goods Bill as one tool that seeks to create a better life for our people. The Bill of Rights requires every person and entity to provide information when asked, thus each dealer should have all information at their disposal so that if they suspect anything, they can go and check. If records seem to be not quite in keeping with all assets, then punitive measures will be taken. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, hon Minister, colleagues, I don't know what to say because Kgoshi and the rest of the comrades who spoke before me have actually spoken on everything.
Hon Minister, I was requested by the committee to speak on the law enforcement and the resources that will ensure that this piece of legislation that we are to pass today is fully implemented.
Firstly, let's talk about the challenges that the rest of the colleagues have spoken about. I am from the North West province. You will be aware that North West is 70% rural. What you have there is that the people who are economically active will be mainly the rural small and medium businesses and small farmers to commercial farmers.
What we have encountered in recent years is that crime on the metal front has increased - as have crimes involving cables - as arethe most important or valuable goods that are kept by communities for use at home. Those things are being stolen by criminals.
On the farms theft of fences and the other things that go with that, like your poles and all those things, is increasing. The reason for that is because some people are unemployed, but that does not justify the crime they are involved in. They steal those things and take them to the illegal scrap yards. Actually, perhaps it is in those scrap yards where organised crime takes place; on the one hand exploiting the very same people who are stealing and trying to make a living for themselves, but on the other hand committing crime.
On that front, again, one of the biggest problems that we have is that this kind of activity is not properly regulated. As a result, these big businesses are actually encouraging crime. Now, it is our well-considered view that this piece of legislation is going to assist us to deal with this kind of crime that is happening in the country and in the countryside.
In this Bill, we are also happy that the police, the law-enforcement agencies, have now been given powers to go to those scrap metal dealers and related businesses to inspect on a periodic basis if indeed the activities that are happening at those metal businesses are legal.
We are also pleased, as a committee, that this Bill gives the Minister the power to identify areas where illegal activities might be happening and to extend the power to deal with those activities. However, on the resources front - as we said, this is a very good piece of legislation - we are a little worried that it might not achieve its intended objectives because of a lack of resources.
It is on that basis that we agree with our colleague from KwaZulu-Natal that whilst we are aware that the police are doing a very good job, they need to be beefed up. They need to be reinforced. We need some kind of specialised unit that will specifically focus on dealing with this kind of a crime.
It is our well-considered view that that is one area that needs to be looked at. But besides establishing that unit, our experience is that we have been passing very good pieces of legislation in this august House. What has happened is that it takes time to implement those pieces of legislation simply because there are no resources in the form of money to ensure that the laws that we pass are effectively implemented.
Once again, it is our request that this area needs to be made a priority. Having said all these things, we want to say as a committee that we wish the department well in ensuring that these illegal activities are uprooted in our society. We support this Bill. [Applause.]
Order! I would like to remind members of this House that according to Rule 33 no member may interrupt another member who is addressing the Chair, except to call attention to a point of order or question of privilege.
Deputy Chairperson, I want to thank members who were participants in this debate this afternoon. A pleasing aspect concerned a suggestion on the enforcement of this law, made by the Eastern Cape. Hon Nyusile raised the issue of a specialised unit, which was supported by KwaZulu-Natal and North West. I'm pleased that hon members see the need for more resources, especially in this portfolio, so that we are able to do the kinds of things we need to do. I'm assured that there is that very formidable support as we go forward.
I think the hon Worth made the very same point about enforcement. We need to say that this process, which has involved everyone, has areas we are highlighting. And as we implement the legislation, we need to bear this in mind so that we are able to evaluate our progress as we go on. I think at this point we can't, with the resources at our disposal, commit to this matter.
Most of the speakers have raised the point that these are untested waters. All we are saying is that we need to test these waters as we go forward.
If you think about what the MEC from the Western Cape has raised with regard to the issue of emergency services, if we are to build a caring society, you can imagine the effect all this crime involving second-hand goods - which we are trying to curb - has of reversing that. When people are awaiting essential services someone will just come and take that away from society just like that, and the entire society will suffer.
It is a blow to our commitment to build a caring society. If we go to the Eastern Cape and elsewhere in the country we witness that there are all sorts of things ensuring that we deliver basic services to people, but we have people who just come and take whatever is copper, our taps, and so on. It is also a further blow to the essential work of ensuring that services are made available to ordinary and poor people.
The notion that this criminality is always associated with poor people is a fallacy because we have very poor countries, poorer than South Africa, who do not have the kind of crimes and activities we experience in our society. I don't think it's correct to justify this behaviour by saying that it is because people are poor. In fact, most of the people who are engaging in these things are syndicates, as the chairperson has said. They are syndicates who are well off as compared to poor people out there. Deputy Chairperson and hon members, thank you.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.