No, no. I'm saying it is not just listening; the questions that Mr Sharp must answer are what his methodology is, what his survey sizes are, and how he arrives at the conclusions. [Interjections.]
What we are saying is: Put the issues on the table and then we can have a discussion about them. The attacks have come from him primarily, and now I think they have moved to a position in which a number of academics, who are eminent in the field of employment data, have actually taken him on.
On the second issue, namely migration, it has to be the hardest matter to try to deal with. It does not matter where you go. Go to Europe and look at the number of immigrants arriving - whether they are North Africans, West Africans or Polish plumbers arriving in the United Kingdom. It is a fundamentally important issue.
Look at the United States. They have no idea how many people have crossed the border from the south. What then happens is that you get the kind of repressive legislation that Arizona has introduced. These are all the same kinds of issues.
The reality is: It is a human condition. People do not wait around in abject poverty - people move. That is the origin, I think, of most us in this room. It is likely to be the trend that will shape people and their movement into the future. There is no short answer to it. I think that, over and above just the situation of desperation - sometimes not desperation, but the desire to have better opportunities - there is the unfortunate reality of extensive people traffic. So, we deal with a large number of people who are in the twilight zone and do not want to be known. This is what makes this matter so difficult.
My sense is that there will always be a very serious undercount of immigrants who have recently arrived in South Africa. This is just one of those realities you have to live with. We have looked at this from Statistics SA. We have worked outside Statistics SA with the actuarial society, and everybody has the same kind of problem. I think we must understand just how difficult it is.
The third issue that the hon Harris raised was the question of salaries. The stipends paid to field workers were calculated and recorded under goods and services, and not under the normal salaries bill. So there is an amount of some R974 million - 120 000 people at R5 000 was the total they got for doing the work and a further 50 000 at R7 500. So, the R974 million was for goods and services. While that changes, what does happen in employment is that work must be done to improve statistics, so there is a marginal increase in the formal personnel expenditure on statistics. I'll come to that in a moment.
In respect of the fourth issue raised, namely the business registration: Yes, this time last year, I think, we were exceedingly optimistic. But you would know that what has happened in the intervening period is that the Companies and Intellectual Property Registration Office, Cipro, had severe problems. They have retooled themselves as the Companies and Intellectual Property Commission, the CIPC. Now, it is a commission and that, I think, put a brake on the collaborative effort that you need, because Statistics SA on its own could not do it.
The big change - and this is where, I think, additional numbers and additional budgets would be needed, and I'll come to this in just a moment - would be to undertake this large survey of all businesses in the country, so that you have a baseline of information and then you can work with the SA Receiver of Revenue and Statistics SA. The figures you quoted from Sars were canvassed in the committee hearing, because there is a measure of double counting.
We are not dealing with exactly the same issue, because just to use the wage bills, for instance ... Because you have the Unemployment Insurance Fund, which is one set of numbers, and you have the skills development levy, which is the second baseline of information, with different cutoffs; and then you have with Pay As You Earn a number of people under the threshold. You also have Site - the Standard Income Tax for Employees - and we need to compare like with like. The need to establish a baseline beyond which it is possible to triangulate is what the challenge has to be going forward.
Hon Koornhof, I'm glad you noticed the representatives of the Auditor- General's office. In fact, this morning we met with them. We will work and ensure that the financial accountability is as good as we can get it. And sometimes these are difficult issues because a normal budget and an elevated budget through a census are two different issues. Part of this is difficult, because you do not have all of the systems in place to deal with every cost centre in a census. But, I think, we want to give members the assurance that we will continue to work on this.
You mentioned the Statistician-General's yellow suit, but you did not mention his blue suede shoes. They were pensioned together and they will be put in the statistics museum for posterity.
Hon Singh - yes, the story of the undercount - did you check that you were actually at the hospice meeting? Perhaps you were somewhere else.