Through you Chairperson, thank you hon Minister for your response, although it is a pity that we have not had sight of any independent investigations in this regard. However, it beholds the Department of Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries although it is an agricultural matter to also conduct some investigations on water streams that may be polluted. I think Thor chemical was a classical example where communities from that area complained about the chemicals that were going into the stream.
As you know, hon Minister, as government we have not been able to provide all the citizens of our country with safe drinking water and they still use these streams. Children still use these streams in hot summer months where they go and swim. So, I think we may have a responsibility to look at some pilot investigations in some of these areas. It is a common cause, hon Minister, as you say that there is no conclusive research about the fact that some of these pollutants cause illnesses, but I think it is common knowledge that many of our illnesses are caused by the air we breathe and the food we eat.
Nowadays you find producers of food even injecting chicken to make them four times the size so that they can make more profit. I see the hon Deputy President is smiling, he knows that. So, they are force feeding these things. This is how they force-feed even our plants with chemicals that can cause harm and can exacerbate the risk of certain illnesses. So, what I would like to know, hon Minister, is if you would consider some pilot studies in areas where there is huge agricultural industry to see whether or not water streams and even the air may be polluted as a result of the use of glyphosate and other weed killers and chemicals? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS, FORESTRY AND
FISHERIES: Chairperson, allow me to discuss it with my counterpart and in due course we can come back to you and advise what decision we have taken. Thank you.
Thank you, House Chair. Minister, the glyphosate may have low toxicity, but usually the other chemicals used with glyphosate have higher toxicity and can be harmful to animals. So, given the dire impact of glyphosate or the potential dire impact of glyphosate on
the environment, is it not time that the department has it banned and propose alternatives, for example, organic non-selective herbicides which can control weeds, grass and broad leaves?
That is the question, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS, FORESTRY AND
FISHERIES: I think I have answered, hon Chairperson. This matter currently falls under my counterpart and I will discuss it with her.
Hon Chairperson, I am not happy with the response which the Minister gave because it impacts the environment. She is the Minister for the Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries. It impacts on the environment, animals and fish as well. She says it falls with her counterpart. That is not good enough for me.
Yes, hon members, just calm down. Hon members, the Minister has indicated that she will interact and consult with her counterpart
on this matter because it is her responsibility that resorts somewhere else. That is her reply. From where we sit, as presiding officers, we don't have eternal wisdom to decide if the question has been answered or not. However, in line with what the original question was, what the Minister said was that we must give her that opportunity to do so. Hon member, you had your hand up.
House Chairperson, there are questions that are specific to her and her department. It is for the second time that she is saying she cannot give a response she will consult elsewhere. She must be responsible enough to know that follow up questions that relate to the main question will speak to issues of the environment and everything else that has been asked now. She is not responding to questions she is just referring to someone else. That is irresponsible. What is the purpose of us coming here if a Minister will refer all these questions to some persons elsewhere ... ?
... thank you, hon member ...
... because we want responses now so that we are able to hold her accountable.
Thank you. Order, hon members ...
... hon
House Chairperson ...
... I will give you an opportunity now, hon member. Order, order, hon members! Now, hon members, if you look at the original question in terms of the specifics that the hon Singh asked, the Minister has responded to that. Now, arising out of the follow up questions she indicates that there are other areas of responsibility that resides somewhere else and that is fair. Let's give the Minister the opportunity to consult and the question may be posed.
Hon House
Chairperson, I just wanted to emphasise that the Minister did respond by saying ... [Interjections.] she gave an honest response by saying that she will consult with her
colleagues in the executive and come back to this House with a response. Also, the Minister, we cannot allow a situation where a Minister is being called irresponsible. She is responsible because she is taking it upon herself to consult ... [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]
Hon House Chair, there is no follow up from me.
You don't want to have a follow up?
Not on this one.
Hon member from the EFF, you said you had a follow up Question?
Yes, Chairperson, we have a follow up on what the Deputy Chief Whip of the ANC is saying. This Minister must not come here to the House if she is not prepared, Chairperson. That is a follow up. It is unfortunate, Chairperson ...
... take your seat, hon member ...
... but why are we here? Why are we here in the House if the Minister can't answer a simple question? It is her department.
... thank you ... thank you, hon member ...
... you are wasting our time.
Thank you. Hon members, now I will not allow ... you see, this is a questions session to the executive, the Minister has responded. If the Minister gets into the territory that she is not acquainted with and she clearly indicates to the House that she must still consult, then, we in the House may hold her in contempt if she misleads the House for the information that she does not have. So, what do you want from her? The hon Minister will consult and she will revert back, that is where we leave it. Secondly, this is not a question session to other members of the
House. You can do that at your luxury outside of the House. This is a question session to the executive. Why are you rising, hon member?
Chairperson, can she go outside now and consult?
No, hon member, please, take your seat. Please, take your seat!
Must go out now!
Hon member, take your seat.
We are paying her to answer!
Take your seat, hon member. I want to move on. Now ... order, hon members, order ...
AN HON MEMBER: ... ice boy, give them ice. Can you please get some ice, ice boy! Ice boy, can you please get some ice?
... hon members, hon members, hon members calm down! Calm down! Hon member, please ... Hon counsellor to the Deputy President, I am chairing the session, I know you have certain views but there are Rules in the House and I am abiding by those Rules. I am not entertaining anyone. Hon member, why are you rising? What is the follow up?
Chairperson, my follow up is, given that this Question Paper has been published for two weeks, does the Minister think it is acceptable of her to say that she will only now go and consult? Why hasn't she done so already?
Chairperson ...
... hon member, take your seat, please. Hon members, I have ruled on this matter and we will proceed to the next question.
Question 145:
Thank you
House Chairperson, let me start off by saying that our commitment as a country to international conventions is unquestionable. So, the question, therefore, about our policy as a department as to whether they comply with the scientific consensus, yes, they do. Every time we develop a policy, we take into account the effect of climate change.
The department's policy position is to give due regard for South Africa's current realities of its energy sources. Transitioning into various other forms require careful approach which should be done in a just transition. That is what just transition is talking to. A just transition is a policy adopted in internationally conventions, taking into account that the development level of the various countries is not the same. So, our development stage is that we are at a stage that should not be compared to Europe, which is fully developed. We are at a lower level of development. When we develop policies, we take that into account.
Thank you hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, I am glad that the Minister confirmed his commitment to the scientific consensus on the environment. For a moment, before this latest energy plan was announced, I thought it might be in cohorts with highly regarded climatologist like Mr Donald Trump ... [Interjections.] ... in being committed to a fossil fuel economy.
Nevertheless, I think that South Africa with its natural adaption for renewable energy is in a very good position disregarding our developmental stage to really take advantage of the sun and the wind.
As I read in the papers, the department has indeed again granted exploration permits for fracturing in the Karoo and we would think that it is much better to have a very distinct and well worked out exit strategy for coal and taking into account all the possibilities with a very short timeframe without wasting too much time on that.
I just want to say that I am very glad that even the red party turned green today. That was something I really appreciated. [Laughter.] Thank you.
Comparing
me to Donald Trump ... [Laughter.] ... is an insult; simple. So, I give you the freedom to insult me because the privilege of Parliament gives you that right. But the reality of the matter is that our department is not a lobby group for a particular technology, it regulates energy supply. We are preoccupied with security of that supply. Hence we talk about just transition that there is no where in the international convention where we should move like a pendulum; from one extreme to the other. So, we are not going to do that. We are going to be systematic. That's why the Integrated Resource Plan, IRP ... which you must read ... made provision for the various technologies. It is very systematic if you look at the number - what will happen by 2030. You will see that we are moving systematically in that transition but we aren't writing off any technology, including coal.
If you read the IRP, when it talks about coal, it puts a rider that it must shift towards cleaner coal energy technologies. The reason why we added that rider is because we were taking into account our climate change commitments as a country. [Applause.]
Thanks House Chair, you are speaking about climate change commitments Minister: What are the current levels of carbon emissions by South Africa and where are we supposed to be taking into account that we are busy constructing two major power stations that are going to burn fossil fuels? Where are we now with regard to carbon emissions and where are we supposed to be? That is a straight forward question.
I don't
want to venture into numbers out of hand but I will give you the answer, Floyd. I am going to give you the answer. [Interjections.]
Hon Minister, let's refer to one another as honourable.
Hon Floyd.
Okay, hon Floyd let me give you the answer. I don't want to throw numbers and do thumb sucking but where I can refer you to ... taking into account that: firstly, renewable energy, for example, was at zero at a certain point, it is now supplying 2,4% of the energy; secondly, you must know that there is published schedule of decommissioning a number of coal power stations. That actually talks to the programme of adapting to the commitments that we have made but as we do that ... before we throw numbers around ... we are making a point that says, if there is a possibility, just transition should not just be co-operatives and reskilling in areas because if you close Hendrina Power Station today, you will reduce the capacity of optimum and Hendrina town will become a ghost town immediately.
As we move towards that decommissioning, we develop alternative technologies to address the development of that community and not allow it to collapse.
On a point of order!
What is the point of order, hon member?
The Minister is not responding to the question that we have asked. Do we have an obligation to reduce carbon emissions or increase it? At what level are we? Are we going up or down? That is a straight forward question.
Hon member ...
If you do not know as a Minister of Minerals and Energy, then you are irresponsible ...
Hon member, please take your seat? We want to move on with the question session. Hon Mileham!
Thank you House Chair, Minister, recent scientific reports have conclusively shown that Mpumalanga has the highest nitrogen dioxide levels on earth and the second highest sulphur dioxide levels. This
is primarily because of the significant pollution emitted by Eskom's coal- fired power stations.
Renewable energy has a major role to play in cleaning up our atmosphere. Now that the IRP has the been published and that you have admitted that that there is a supply gap in the provision of electricity, will you inform this House exactly when do you intend opening the next bid window for renewable energy independent power producers?
I get
worried when MPs get surprised by things that they are aware of. All the power stations in Mpumalanga have been around. We have 16 coal generating power stations in the country. They are there. So, pollution by those power stations cannot take us by surprise. That's why it is important that it is not coal or renewables; the commitment is at reducing carbon emissions and other emissions from high emissions to low emissions. That process is going to be a process, it is not an event. That's why we talk of a just transition.
So, if you want a date for that ... no, because you are not an MP, you are a lobbyist. [Laughter.] I can't deal with a lobbyist in Parliament ... [Interjections.]
On a point of order!
Why are you rising? Hon Minister, will you just take your seat, please?
That's it.
Sir, it imputes improper motives on the hon Mileham to suggest that he is a lobbyist and not an hon member of this House. [Interjections.]
Hon Minister, will you withdraw that remark, please?
Lobbying is
an activity of promoting something ... [Interjections.]
Hon Minister, just withdraw the remark, please?
You want me
to withdraw that?
Yes, please!
Okay, fine,
you get it but ...
Chairperson!
Why are you rising, hon member?
Can the Minister just say if they are opening up for independent power producers, IPPs, or not?
No, hon member, please take your seat?
It is an important opportunity.
House Chair!
We have gone past that question now.
House Chair!
Why are you rising, hon member?
House Chair, my question was very simple. It was when will the next window open?
Well, hon member, the Minister has replied.
The Minister is mantashing again, Chair!
Hon member ... Order! Hon members, you must also keep in mind that your questions must be clearly linked to the original question that is there. I have allowed a situation for the Minister to expand as far as he could but obviously, it
is clear that the original question has been answered and with regard to your follow up question, the Minister responded. I can't compel him to give a House a date if he is not ready to do so. It doesn't exist.
House Chair, thank you very much, hon Minister, given the fact that South Africa's use of coal burning fossil fuels will only peak around 2030 due to the high amount of reserves we have available and given that our new coal-fired power stations, Medupi and Kusile will ostensibly run until 2075; South Africa is clearly on the trajectory that will see the greenhouse gas emissions rise in the next decade for they taper off and begin to fall in post 2030 and beyond.
My question is therefore that more focus should be around the long-term energy mix plans for the department, particularly the role around nuclear and renewable energy resources now, especially post 2030. How do you then see these sectors developing and do you intend on deregulating energy supply in South Africa in favour of creating more enabling environment for the independent power producers in this regard? Thanks.
It is not
the independence that generates energy. It is power stations that are based on technologies. Now, the IRP makes provision for all the technologies; from coal, nuclear gas, wind, solar and sun - all of them. The reason we do that ... let me explain so that you can explain to others ... is that we are endowed with coal in the country. We are the only country ... and it is a sign of unsettlement, when a country has no interest and needs but it must be a pawn of the powerful countries of the west and therefore, thus repeat their message over and over without looking at its own interests and needs.
So, the point I am making is that, we have coal and it is not going be finished in 30 years. That's why in the IRP, we said we will continue with coal but put a proviso that it shifts to cleaner coal energy technologies - that's the qualifier. So, the point I am making is therefore that renewables are going to grow. Go to the numbers in the IRP, you'll see that wind, for example, is projected to be supplying 18% of energy by 2030. Together with solar, it is now supplying 4,5% paid for at 24% because the myth that we repeat over and over here is that there
is something new called cheap renewable. Actually for photovoltaic, PV, in round 1, we are paying R4,25 a unit today. It is not wrong. Go to the banks, they will tell you we are paying R4,25 for round 1; R274 for round 2 and only round 4 has come down to R1,08 for PV and R0,87 for wind. It is going down but we cannot close our eyes at this point in time, we source our energy from round 1, 2 and 3, which are all above the average of Eskom's supply.
Thank you hon Minister, hon members before I proceed to the next question, I would like to welcome in the gallery the teachers and learners from Ngcobo Primary School in the Eastern Cape. [Applause.]
Question 178:
Hon Chairperson, the question says: What steps is the National Treasury taking within its means to ensure the expedient realisation of the goals of the seven priority tasks regarding economic recovery as outlined by the President?
Well, first of all I do not know why the expediency, but anyway the answer to the question is as follows: The President, in his state of the nation address, in June 2019, outlined seven priorities for the sixth administration. This included: one, economic transformation and job creation; two, education skills and health; three, consolidating the social wage through reliable and quality basic services; four, spatial integration, human settlements and local government; five, is social cohesion and safe communities; six, a capable ethical and developmental state; and seven, a better Africa and a better world.
Now, the National Treasury's mandate is to provide funding for policy decisions in government within the context of its decisions, within its constraints and within the fiscal envelope. Therefore this overarching mandate, which covers these seven areas, has to be provided for in the budget. These initiatives are clearly spelled out in the Medium-Term Strategic Framework.
I would like to request hon members to bear with me, not to pre-empt the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement in
terms of what would be delivered next week. Most of the details requested here would be outlined there. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Is there a follow-up question from the hon Abraham? There is not follow-up question. The hon Shivambu!
Hon House Chair and hon Minister, you will agree with me that what ever form of economic recovery plan requires energy, stability and dependability of electricity supply. Yesterday, when you were closing the debate on Special Appropriation, you said that the challenges of Eskom are not only about the money, but also the issue of leadership.
Do you think that Jabu Mabuza is suitable to lead Eskom towards the provision of sustainable and dependable energy for the recovery plans? Whether the reactionary things that you have published and the rightwing proposals that you have brought here: Do you think that Jabu Mabuza will lead Eskom towards the provision of stable energy to South Africa?
Hon Chairperson, the role that Jabu Mabuza plays at Eskom is that of the chairman of the board of directors. He is so appointed in that position by the shareholders. I am quite certain that the shareholders exercise their minds when they make such appointments.
So, Jabu Mabuza is the nonexecutive chair of the Eskom Board of Directors on a temporary basis. Given the recent resignation of the chief executive officer, the board of directors has asked him to fill in the position of the chief executive officer until the new chief executive officer is appointed, I understand very soon.
Yes, very competent - I am quite certain that would be the case in order to be able to manage this huge organisation into the future. House Chair, I would ask that the hon member does not pose an additional question because he is trying to make me come into the territory of the Minister of Public Enterprises. I know his thinking. That is what he is trying to do. [Laughter.]
Hon House Chairperson and hon Minister, in that state of the nation address the President identified the seven priority areas; later he identified five core tasks; and at the Presidential Job Summit, the identified 77 priority tasks of this government. Now in all of those lists of tasks and priority areas, very little has been achieved over the last six months, the President has himself admitted.
Speaking in London last week, he says that actually the core reason for the slow pace of achievement in those lists of tasks is government itself, because there is little agreement. While there may be agreement on the goals, there is very little agreement on how to achieve them. So, I ask you: Do you agree with the President's sentiments that government is the biggest inhibitor to growth and achieving these priority areas; and if you would, be so kind as to point out exactly which of your colleagues are the biggest enemies of growth. Thank you.
Hon Minister. Hon members you are reminded that according to the Rules, a
follow-up question only consist of one question and not multiple questions. Hon Minister!
Hon Chairperson, I wanted to confirm to the hon member that I went to school. I studied. I know what a tricky question is. That is what you are trying to do. You are trying to put me on a collision course with the President. You are most unlikely going to succeed. [Laughter.]
In fact, when I was at the university I would have said you are going to successfully fail. Thank you very much. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The hon Nxumalo.
Chairperson!
Sorry. Yes!
Hon Chairperson, I think with respect, I have already succeeded. [Applause.]
The next follow- up question is from the hon Buthelezi from the IFP.
Hon House Chairperson, my question actually would have been similar to the first question that was asked in the follow-up and I have taken the point that the Minister has mentioned to say he will give more details next week. So, maybe after that, if my questions were not answered, I will put a question. Thank you.
Is there a follow-up question from the hon Kula? No follow-up question. Hon members, let us proceed. I now proceed to Question 158 that has been asked by the hon Steyn to the Minister of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development. I have also been informed that the Deputy Minister will be answering questions on behalf of the Minister. The hon Deputy Minister!
Question 158:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT: Hon House Chair, thank you for the question.
The number of title deeds handed out for restitution purposes since 09 May 2019 is 27 in six provinces. In relation to branch Land Tenure and Administration one title deed was handed over to the Yendela Community Property Association in the Eastern Cape. I thank you, hon Chair.
Hon Deputy Minister, through you House Chairperson, it is now 25 years since the democratic order was established but still today in the former homelands access to and the occupation of land is still regulated by the regulation that was passed by Parliament and other legislative bodies of the apartheid era. It is for this reason that the Upgrading Act was enacted to give black people secure rights in land. It permits them to convert occupational rights into ownership but due to related policy of apartheid that relief is not available to all South Africans.
In August this year, the Constitutional Court found out that it is unfair to afford redress to some of the victims of the discrimination under apartheid and withhold that redress from other victims based on where
they currently live. According to your own department, a submission to court there is no good reason for depriving those in the former homelands the benefits brought about by the Upgrading Act. When will your department comply with the ruling of the Constitutional Court and offer title deeds to people living in the former Transkei, Bophuthatswana, Venda and Ciskei states? Give people the choice if they want title to the land like the courts asked you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT: Hon House Chair, it is 25 years as she says and colonialism was more than 300 years. It is in recognition of that particular process that we understand that the construction of a united democratic nonsexist and nonracial South Africa is not an event. It is a process that is going to outlive both of us. What is important is that the department and this particular government are doing something to effect the redress and bring an equal society to our people. Thank you.
Hon Chair, the Deputy Minister did not answer the question. There was a Constitutional Court
case that told them to do something and they are not doing it.
I am sure hon member if you had asked that question then the Minister would have been in a position to do so. The original question is asking about the total number of title deeds that the department has handed out for restitution and land reform since May this year. What you are asking now in a supplementary question, with all due respect, is a new question.
Hon House Chair, out of the number given to your answer, there is a biggest challenge that the department had of the beneficiaries preferring to take money instead of acquiring the land bought for them. In the very same number that you have given us how many if any of those recipients that might have written to the department demanding that they would rather be given money and have the farms sold back? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT: Hon House Chair, like the Minister of
Mineral Resources and Energy, I do not want to just jump into the figures when I do not have the accuracy of such figures. Generally what I can say to you is that the issue of people preferring financial compensation than land is an issue that is very vast. When people have been oppressed and poverty is so much they really think that the immediate solution to their problem is financial compensation which they can use immediately.
This government and many parties here have emphasised and indicated to the importance of land over simple financial compensation. We continue to educate our people about the fundamental issue of retaining land. That is why we are really looking forward to the issue of finalising the amendment to the particular Constitution. Your issue is a really one that is facing us but we continue to educate people about the importance of preferring land which will last forever than financial compensation. I do not want to jump to the figures as I have indicated. Thank you.
Setswana:
Modulasetilo wa Ntlo, potso ya ka go motl Motlatsatona ke gore, malobeng re bone Mafapha a
Pusoselegae le Kabo ya Matlo, Lefapha la Temothuo, Tlhabololo ya Metsemagae le Kabo ya Mafatshe a tshwere ka thata go aba kano tsa bong. Sentl-sentle kano ya bong ke eng, le gone mosola wa gonna le yona o le moagi wa Aforikaborwa gape o le motho o montsho ke o feng? Ke a leboga.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT: This is South Africa and we have got 11 Official languages. A title deed can be defined as a legal document providing a person a right to property. It is something very fundamental in this new South Africa.
IsiXhosa:
Njengokuba abantu bakuthi bebeba ngoogob'ityholo bezenzela amatyotyombe apho bathe babona indawo. Kobo bugob'ityholo babengenazo iziqinisekisi mnini besalelwa ngurulumente ongqondo-gqwirha owayengabathatheli ntweni. Ngoku ke, yiyo loo nto ubaluleke kangakanana umcimbi wesiqinisekisi mnini ingakumbi xa kukho umbuzo othi ...
English:
... what does a title deed mean to a black South African? It provides dignity to have a roof over your land; a land that you can call yours.
IsiXhosa:
Umhlaba onothi ukwazi ukwenza nantoni na ngawo nokuba ufuna ukwenza urhwebo ungakwazi ukuba uwusebenzise. Okubaluleke kakhulu kukuba nomntu ongumama apha kuMzantsi Afrika omtsha uyakwazi ukusinikwa isiqinisekiso mnini.
English:
This shows the interests of this government in advancing the cause of an equal society providing women as equal partners to their men folk. Thank you. [Applause.]
Hon House Chair, the Fifth Parliament resolved on the amendment of section 25 of the Constitution to usher in the redistribution of land without compensation. Hon Minister, why are continuing to issue title deeds when we have agreed that land is going to be expropriated without compensation and put all the land under the custodianship of the state for equal redistribution? Are these title deeds still relevant hon
Minister, after having made that amendment on section 25 of the Constitution? Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT: The distribution and the handing out of title deeds to our people do not negate the redistribution of land. In fact it does enhance it. The point that the hon member is making, I am sure he is confusing positions of a political party with what we have agreed on. I think that there is total agreement amongst us, especially from this side and the EFF that land must be expropriated without compensation.
The issue that the hon member is now venturing into, in my little recollection, it might be an issue that belongs to a particular political party. Maybe when we begin to debate that we might perhaps agree or not agree. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Question 184:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT: Chair, as government led by the ANC, we are guided by the respect of the Constitution of our country.
Chapter 3 of the Constitution puts emphasis on corporative governance. Section 41 of the Constitution conjoins us to preserve peace, national unity and indivisibility of the republic.
It also provides effective, transparent, accountable and coherent government for the republic and its people. It also speaks about co- operating with one another in mutual trust and good faith by amongst other things, informing each other and consulting one another on matters of common interest, co-ordinating our actions and legislation with one another.
Therefore, it is very important for the three spheres of government to work together and ensure policy realignment without encroaching on each other's competency. We note with concern the allegations of some of the municipalities and individuals intended on hastily disposing land to undermine the process of amending section 25 of the Constitution.
On this, we want to be firm and say, any intention to undermine the expropriation of land without compensation
will be no tolerated at all. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Setswana:
Jaaka go kgatlhile lekgotla leno motlotlegi.
English:
Hon Deputy Minister, the sector is also competing with informal settlements which are mushrooming all over. In most cases, on agricultural land at local government level, informal settlements have taken over land for livestock grazing and food production. What is the department doing to protect and preserve agricultural land at local government level? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT: One good intervention in that regard that can help us a lot is local municipalities passing by laws which would need to be enforced. Lack of enforcement can cause the challenges that the hon member has identified. Also, the effective implementation of the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act, SPLUMA, will lessen
such a challenge. We believe and affirm that agricultural land must be used for agricultural purposes and not for township establishment.
There is a need for strengthening public awareness on existing bylaws, SPLUMA and food security, so that people understand where an area should be zoned for agriculture and where human settlement can be allowed.
In this regard, you would recall that our department had land reform district committees which involved various sectors in the local municipality and this also goes a long way in ensuring the effective allocation of land use. This is also why we think that the initiative by our President on the district development model; is an initiative that assists very much because it also speaks into the realignment and the working together of different spheres of government. I thank you.
House Chair, Deputy Minister, during the apartheid administration, farmers mostly, had the privilege of owning more than one farm and in some cases, three to five farms. If I may ask, is there a
policy now in your department which restricts each farm owner to have more than one farm in his position, so as to allow an opportunity for every interested farmer to have piece of land to produce in this country? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT: Parliament would recall that during the fifth administration, the President in a state of the nation address spoke about the hectares that each individual should own our country. In that regard, he also spoke about restrictions of land ownership in our country by foreigners.
Therefore, if we are creating an equal society, we are fighting against a monopoly in relation to land because if we allow individuals to own as much land as they want or depending on the fatness of their pockets, it will defeat the issue of creating an equal society. Thank you.
Chairperson, I am noting that you are allowing a question that is not linked to the original question while my previous one was. So my question to the
Deputy Minister is; when will the government make all suitable state land available for land reform purposes so that we don't have to rely on the different spheres of government to do it? The state must just make the land available.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT: There is a process that includes the Minister but its lead by the Deputy President of the country. In this particular process, what we are busy with, and I think in fact the Deputy President spoke about this matter a day ago, is that we have started a process of releasing the particular parcels of land.
What the Deputy President and what we are saying is that, we need to rapidly to release a particular land. So this is under attention and we will be here next week and you might find out that there is land that is being released in a particular area. This is a working progress and it is happening as we speak through the Inter Ministerial Committee, IMC. Thank you very much.
Deputy Minister, wouldn't it be appropriate for government to put a moratorium on the sale of land until we finalise the constitutional amendment of section 25 and develop a comprehensive plan on the use of land; so that we don't find people sitting on productive land unused when there are people who can put that land into very good use? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT: Thank you for that question. Ideally that question might be attractive and appetising but in a situation like ours, with the democracy that we have, and in that particular democracy we spoke about property clause, it will really be difficult for us to say that we will have a moratorium on the sale of land.
This is why in response to the other question; I indicated our worry in relation to making sure that whoever sells land doesn't undermine the process of expropriation of land without compensation. But I think it would be difficult to bluntly say that there would be a moratorium passed by government. Thank you.
Question 176:
Chairperson, this is the question regarding the finalisation of the Petroleum Amendment Bill. Actually, the development and the finalisation of the Petroleum Amendment Bill, addresses peculiar matters pertinent to the petroleum industry and provides investors with the required regulatory certainty to unlock the much-needed invest vestment into the South African petroleum industry - that is the first thing.
The secondly, both the objects and provisions of the draft Bill recognise government's objectives of transforming the country's economy. The provisions of the Bill will, therefore, provide for active participation of black persons, empower the Minister to develop transformation Charter for the upstream petroleum industry, to further government's transformation agenda and empower the state to participate in the petroleum activities for the benefit of all South Africans.
Let me add just one sentence. We have done benchmarking. Where petroleum sector is separated from mining both
sectors perform better. We think that if we want the petroleum sector to grow at the necessary pace, we must liberate it from being an appendage of mining so that both mining and petroleum could flourish.
Thanks, Chair. Hon Minister, South Africa's petroleum industries are relatively underdeveloped when compared to countries such as the oil and gas producers in Africa, the Middle East, Russia and North America. Domestic market is also underdeveloped. What measures will government put in place to ensure that South Africa is able to compete successfully with countries that have more developed petroleum industries and also increase the demand in the domestic economy? Thank you.
The
underdevelopment of the petroleum sector underpins our desire to establish it so that it receives undivided focus for its development and growth - that is the objective of the Bill.
Underdevelopment is a function of two things. It is either you don't have oil and gas deposits or you have not exploited them, and the latter is true in South Africa. We are beginning to bump into the deposits of gas more and less on oil. Our view is that if we want to grow that sector to its full scale so that it can be optimal, we need to separate it and dedicate resources to it and dedicate people to work on it then it will contribute to the performance of the economy. In our view petroleum is a catalyst for economic growth and development.
Thanks House, Chairperson. The Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Amendment Bill was passed by the Fourth Parliament. The Fifth Parliament finished before the President could sign it into law. When you were in Australia you are the one who withdrew it. You actually announced that the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Amendment Bill must be withdrawn and the Minister of Energy that time, Jeff Radebe, did not even know that there is such a decision because he contradicted you publicly. Thereafter, there was an announcement of Total's investment in Mosel Bay. Aren't you being a committee that manages the common affairs of
the bourgeoisies by being under the control of Total which says that it cannot continue with the investment if section 86 of the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Amendment Bill continues? Basically, it wa saying that in the new discoveries of petroleum projects the state should have free carry shares of about 30%. Aren't you a sell-out and just burgeoning to what the bourgeoisies instructs you to do?
We are
running an economy and the policy here [Interjections.] Please, don't be excited. Please, please, please ...
IsiXhosa:
Siyanicela yekani ukuba nemincili eNdlini, mamelani.
English:
Our relationship with capital is characterised properly when you see it as unit and struggle of the opposite. Capital is necessary in the economy that we run. When you look at the Chinese model they observed that socialism in its pure form was very good on the human side but stagnated on the economic side hence they invented what
they call socialism with Chinese characteristics where they appreciated the importance of free market and the development of the economy. We are not in a different situation. We are in that situation and we must actually...Extremism, which thinks that capital should be destroyed because it is white and we call it white monopoly capital, is a misguided ideological position and we can't help you with your confusion. [Laughter.]
Chair, the question is simple. Did you withdraw the Bill because of the instruction of Total? Why did you announce it when you were in Australia that the Bill has been withdrawn? Are you a puppet of imperialism?
Hon Shivambu, can we continue, please.
Chairperson, you must also protect us. If Mqwathi is confused about the whole ideology of the EFF, he must not come here and grandstand because we are going to expose him.
Thank you very much. Hon Minister, I think that most of us in this Chamber will agree that redress is the key in ensuring that we achieve social and economic justice in South Africa. However, in addressing my rights of challenges faced by historically disadvantaged person in particular in a sector which is largely skewed to the minority of our population and acknowledging that corruption is a major factor which does not promote transformation for all. While we welcome the legislative amendments for transformation to be fast- tracked in the petroleum sector, the question is, could the Minister please explain practically how these amendments will safeguard the fact that many, and not few black people who have privilege accessed already, will benefit from these amendments. Thank you.
Let's start
with mining and why we are taking petroleum out. It is one of the few sectors where there is a mine that is 50% owned by workers. That is transformation. It is in mining where we are on a road to put together a mining champion company that is black owned. We have outgrown the belief
that black business must be R20 million run. We must have a massive black business that run the economy.
In Mpumalanga - for those who stay there - there is a plethora of small companies which are black owned. Young professionals are given space to grow and develop their own mines. I don't know what barometer have you used to say there is no transformation. Transformation is a process. What confuses many people, including Ndlozi, is that sometimes they believe that black economic empowerment, BEE, is a social programme which must distribute food parcels. Black economic empowerment is about developing black capitalists in a capitalist society, and there will be fewer of them; not many as if it is a social programme - it is not. [Laughter.] We are developing black capitalists who must grow. When black people become rich we must stop being jealousy.
Thank you House Chair. Minister, on a recent oversight visit by the portfolio committee on Mineral Resources and Energy at the various department's entities we uncovered significant overlaps in the roles, mandates and responsibilities of the Council for
Geosciences, the Petroleum Agency for South Africa, PetroSA and the department itself with regard to the petroleum sector specifically. Given that all these entities have their own boards and their own organisational structures incurring massive costs, will you commit to merging and rationalisation them into a more cost effective structure, and if so, how?
In the
Budget Speech earlier this year we acknowledged that there are a lot of problems in the entities of Energy. We acknowledged that and we told you what we are going to do. But let me remind you because we are now in Parliament. We said one of the problems in those entities is the collapse of governance. We said to you in the portfolio committee that when we correct and regularise governance we will be starting a process of dealing with both operational and financial risk. Now we are finished with the first group, the Central Energy Fund, Cef.
Once you have boards in place and governance is regularised, it is only then that you can start talking about rationalising because you must rationalise
something that is operational. We are in that process. On Friday as we were announcing the energy resource plan, ERP, we also announced the boards of various entities in the Cef group. On Monday we had a meeting with all those boards trying to show them that there is a crisis and there is no governance.
Let me give you this information for free. In all these boards not a single entity has a full time CEO. All are run by acting CEOs. My responsibility is to regularise that space and ensure that we appoint CEOs in all of them and then we begin to talk about strategies. They attempted to come and say I am having a strategy that was developed by half of the board. To me it is equal to covering up. We are going to develop strategies for each entity and then we can talk about rationalising them.
Question 172:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT (Mr M SKWATSHA): Hon Chair, the total is R68 960,70 million [Interjections and Applause.]
Hon Minister you are protected.
DEVELOPMENT (Mr M SKWATSHA): May I repeat this?
Yes for emphasis, you can repeat it.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT (Mr M SKWATSHA): It is R68 940 967,76 million [Applause.] I am sorry; I have never had such money. It was spent on 151 projects, there is a table here indicating those projects. I thank you.
Hon House Chair, hon Deputy Minister I think the numbers that you have given there in terms of the number of clients or farmers that were assisted are incorrect. Hon Deputy Minister, it is now planting time and pruning season and soon farmers will be harvesting. There were farmers that were approved by Land Bank before you decided to suspend this blended finance. Before you establish a commission to investigate yourself Minister, I just want to ask you to please tell the farmers and this House as to where the money that you have suspended is. Thank you
DEVELOPMENT (Mr M SKWATSHA): Thank you very much hon Chair. Where is the money? It is not the money that is suspended; it is the blended finance model. The department is very busy in recognition of this being the planting season in assisting the farmers. The farmers know that very well. Two weeks ago, we were together with the farmers in the Free State province talking to them about this particular issue. I thank you.
Hon Chair, Deputy Minister, what measures have been taken in the current financial year to advance the commitment made by His Excellency, President Cyril Ramaphosa, to transform the agricultural sector through greater participation of black commercial farmers in respect of the greater participation of rural communities, encouraging the black rural youth to pursue commercial farming and also to facilitate the participation of rural women in commercial farming? Thank you.
IsiXhosa: