Those against will say No.
HON MEMBERS: No!
I think the AYEs have it.
Declarations of vote:
House Chairperson, the DA will not be supporting the motion on the Order Paper as it appears today. Because what this motion is today, is the greatest hoax perpetuated on the people of South Africa.
Let's be very, very clear, South Africa suffers desperately from the history of systemic exclusion of black people from land ownership in South Africa through a variety of discriminatory laws. And that is the truth. You can trace it
back, it was legislative dispossession of property and ownership in South Africa.
What this has done is that it has left many, many black South Africans, particularly, without security of tenure, without ownership of land and we fully support efforts to ensure that we have redress and redistribution of land in South Africa. We have to put land in the hands of more previously disadvantaged South Africans.
But the problem with this motion is two fold. First of all it's premised on a Constitutional Review Committee, which itself is legally, procedurally and constitutionally flawed. You cannot have a consultation process that culminates in a report that ignores over 600 000 written submissions because they weren't to the liking of what you wanted to achieve. [Applause.] That is not consultation, that is not consultation, that is a farce. It says we have a predetermined outcome, we ask people to give their opinions and we just regarded them anyway.
It completely ignored the overwhelming amount of oral submissions held by the committee here in Parliament where by
far the majority showed very clearly that they were against the amendment of the Constitution.
It ignores the fact that people like Judge L B Sacks have said:
Far from being a barrier to radical land redistribution, the Constitution in fact requires and facilitates extensive and progressive programmes of land reform. It provides for constitutional and judicial control to ensure equitable access and prevent abuse.
And as I said the other day, this cluster that you're trying to use to fix this problem is a smokescreen to the government failure of the last two decades. It doesn't address the root causes of how land reform and land restitution in South Africa is not working, and why it does not move at the pace to ensure that we have land at the hands of more previously disadvantaged South Africans.
It will also have serious unintended consequences for our economy. Most agricultural land is bonded and will have impacts on the financial services in South Africa.
There's also no such thing, including VBS Mutual Bank, it will have an impact on them as well, there's no such thing as expropriation without compensation because what the government expropriates without compensation will be paid for by the negative effects on the economy.
And if you want to see the end road of what you want to do here today, have a look at Venezuela, biggest human displacement in human history [Applause.] biggest human displacement in human history, go and have look, go and have a look at what happened in Zimbabwe when Robert Mugabe went down the same road, ended up with ... the are actually doing the opposite now in Zimbabwe because they realised the folly of their ways. [Interjections.]
But let's be serious, let's get past this hoax, because now you're going to wait till March next year, which is the rising date of this committee's reporting date, to actually grapple with this problem. This problem is far more urgent than that. And if this House and this government were really serious about land reform and land restitution, we would be sitting here over the recess period processing the Expropriation Bill. No special majority required, no amendments of the
Constitution, we could do it in three months her, in Parliament. [Interjections.]
If this government was serious about restitution and redistribution we would speed up the hundreds of thousands of land claims that remain unprocessed in South Africa. [Applause.] We could do that easily.
This government could spend the next three months doing a comprehensive land audit on well-placed state-owned land near urban centres where the real pressure for land and opportunity exist in South Africa.
And this government would sit for the next three months and this House should sit for the next three months giving people title in tribal trust land so that they own the land they live and they work. [Applause.] That is what a serious party would do if it was caring about land reform and land redistribution.
This is a hoax and the people of South Africa are going to see through it pretty soon. [Interjections. [Applause.]
House Chair, one of the guiding lights of the EFF is Frantz Fanon, whose birthday it was on the 20th of this month, once told us that each generation must, out of relative obscurity, discover its mission, fulfil it or betray it.
Today once more, Chairperson, we are called upon to forget our petty political differences and to forge a united front to fulfil, not only this generation's mission, but mission of generations past and generations to come.
The resolution of the land question in South Africa transcends this generation. It is a nation for which many of our forefathers died for and killed brutally. A mission which must be fulfilled for any of those who come after us to prosper on our land. No one has been better placed as we are to for once and all change the constitutional super structure of the country to reflect the pain from where we come form as black people.
And the glory which awaits us, if we are bold enough, brave enough, daring enough and progressive enough.
Section 25 of the Constitution is currently stands, draws a moral equivalence between the rights of the dispossessed and the rights of the dispossessor. It makes the settler equal to the dispossessed native, it brushes out the pain of dispossession, it requires the dispossessed to pay the dispossessor for the land that was acquired brutally.
The Sixth Parliament has rare opportunity to redress all these past wrong to allow the natives who have lost so much to reclaim their dignity back by getting our land back.
As we have led this process before, we will lead it again.
The property clause must and will be amended. And the land will be expropriated without compensation for equal redistribution and use.
No longer shall we have a tiny, tiny circle minority owning the bulk of land in South Africa. No longer shall we be treated as slaves in our own land, never.
The EFF will participate in the ad hoc committee to make sure that the ANC does not even introduce artificial amendments,
because we are here to make sure that we get our land back to the rightful owners, which is the black people. Amandla! [All the power.] [Applause.]
HON MEMBERS: Awethu! [To the people.]
Hon Chairperson, from the onset I wish to put it very clear that the IFP supports land reform and redistribution. This is the call that we have championed for so many years. The resolution of land issue carries with it the promise of healing the wounds of the past. Land has social, spiritual and economic values. It has the potential to be the foundation of the renewed economy our country critically need.
Hon Chairperson, section 25 of our Constitution allows for expropriation of land with reasonable compensation where it is deemed fits in the public interests. The IFP remains of the considered opinion that section 25, as it is currently framed in our Constitution, is broad enough to allow for expropriation with no compensation. We need justification to why it is necessary to re-establish the ad hoc committee on this matter. The Constitution had not failed our people. It is
the current policies of this government that is failing our people in redistributing land. Therefore, amending the Constriction is never going to solve the problem of land in our country.
The land that government has already expropriated and redistributed has been severely neglected. The postsettlement programmes to assist communities in working the land have dismally failed. There are many farms that have been given to communities and those communities were never supported and as a result these farms are no longer producing.
Hon Chairperson, we cannot put a plaster on an open wound without diagnosing the cause and the symptoms of our pain and failures. If we look at the current budget of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, it is clearly showing that government does not care or it is not serious in addressing the issue of land. If it was serious the amount allocated to this department could have been substantially more than all the previous years. We cannot continue to pay lip service in a painful issues of land reforms. And we cannot use such a sensitive matter to play politics. Our people have
suffered and that is enough. The IFP does not support the re- establishment of this committee. Thank you.
Chairperson, it is quite clear that there is a fundamental difference between the EFF and the ANC when it comes to land. The ANC tells people that they want expropriation without compensation so that people have access to land. They also say that there will be strict preconditions before expropriation without compensation takes place.
I think the EFF is more honest than the ANC. For them it is an ideological issue where they say that they want all the land and they want to nationalise it. At least they are honest when it comes to the land issue. If you listen to the EFF and the ANC in Afrikaans we say ...
Afrikaans:
...dit is soos die katfamilie; jy weet nie of hulle vry of baklei nie.
English:
Sometimes it sounds as if they are fighting and in other times they sound as if they are in love with each other. [Interjections.]
The FF Plus wants to put it quite clear and it is on record from this podium and we say that the process up to now has been flawed. We will ensure that if you want to follow the legal way you must keep within the legal way.
This motion should have a title. The motion should read: How to distract the economy and South Africa's future. [Interjections.] I am saying it again, and I am saying it quite clear. [Interjections.] If you allow the Constitution to be amended to provide for expropriation without compensation, you put South Africa on the same path as Zimbabwe. [Injections.] Mark my words; I am saying, mark my words.
Afrikaans:
Daar moet geen onduidelikheid wees nie. Daar is mense wat dink dat as daar oor onteiening sonder vergoeding gepraat word, praat ons van landbougrond. Artikel 25 is baie duidelik, wat s dat eiendom nie tot grond beperk is nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit sluit roerende sowel as intellektuele eiendom in.
Daarom moet die mense van Suid-Afrika verstaan dat hierdie mosie een van die slegste mosies is, veral wat die toekoms van Suid-Afrika betref. Hulle sal hulle misnoe uit moet spreek. Die Vryheidsfront Plus verwerp hierdie mosie en sal alles in sy vermo doen om te voorkom dat die Grondwet gewysig word.
House Chair, the ACDP appreciates that the land issue is a very sensitive and potentially divisive issue given the history of land dispossession in the country particularly following the Land Act of 1913 and the subsequent legislations. While we believe that justice must be done we also strongly believe in reconciliation and nation building. Biblical justice can be achieved through a process of restitution, and in our view, with compensation. It is for this reason that we support land reform and restitution of land in an orderly and lawful manner.
We appreciate the work that the ad hoc committee in the Fifth Parliament did obtaining expert advice of this issue. It is apparent from this report that experts consulted have advised great caution in this process given that Parliament, for the first time, will be considering amending a clause in the Bill of Rights.
The ANC veteran Mr Valli Moosa cautioned that in amending section 25 the committee must take care not to disposes those who have been dispossessed in the past. We need to be mindful of that. Also, is the significant opinion of the leading constitutional lawyer Advocate Trengrove who said he does not believe that the Constitution require an amendment as a matter of law. And the ACDP agrees.
It is equally important to bear in mind that the Human Rights Commission, who are the guardians of the Constitution, stated in no unequal terms that they are not in favour of an amendment to section 25. Former Constitutional Court judge, Albie Sachs, pointed out that provided for expropriation without compensation in the Constitution will be insufficient to address the failures of land reforms. He referred to the Motlanthe High Level Panel report and the failure to implement its recommendations during public hearings of the Motlanthe High Level Panel which took place over two years. Many spoke scathingly about the role of state officials and politicians in land reforms describing them as vultures who steal the little people have left after decades of oppression and forced removals. How will this be prevented, Deputy President?
The ANC has repeatedly claimed that expropriation with compensation will return the land to the people however the Institute of Race Relations pointed out that this is fundamentally misleading. Land expropriated without compensation will be owned by the state and neither by the individual black South Africans nor will it be transferred to them thereafter. Land acquired will be held by the state as a patronage tool and used to deepen the dependency on and by the ruling party. This is the fraud at the heart of expropriation without compensation.
The ACDP remains committed to find solutions. We cannot support this motion. I thank you.
Chairperson, on behalf of Good I would like to declare that we will participate at the ad hoc committee established by Parliament. Our position is that the current section 25 in the Constitution does make provision for expropriation for the public good. Good supports land reform, land tenure, land restitution and land distribution that can deal with apartheid special planning and dispossession.
Our message is clear that public land must be used for public good. The whole debate around expropriation without compensation is causing a lot of policy uncertainty and that impacts on the economic growth. The sooner we conclude the process, the better it will be for the country. Thank you.
House Chair, Deputy President, colleagues and the House, yes, indeed, it is true your dignity and your identity come from exactly where you originate. The first question someone asks you today is not even your name, but it is where you live. I think it is very, very important that what has happened pre-1994 where the land was taken away from our people must be returned to the people.
But having said that we must also be mindful of the fact that section 25 does provides for expropriation, and there is no doubt about that. We have unduly delayed the process over the period of time to accelerate land reform in South Africa. Let us be honest about that.
But what we find today is that we are coming here as political parties at the expense of the poorest of the poor, we are grandstanding making this to be a political thing rather than
really addressing the challenges of our people in terms of their land and their dignity. The NFP will support any process that will accelerate land reform in South Africa. But I am also saying that we are not a banana republic where you just go and take land from one person and give it to somebody else. That is not what we must do in South Africa. Let us learn from what is happening in the rest of the world and do the right thing.
While restitution must take place and if there is a need for the ad hoc committee, yes, the NFP will support it. But let us be mindful of food security. Let us be mindful of even the lands we take and gave away. Have they been productive? What is going to happen? Let us look at the economy, and let's look at the bigger picture. Let us not do it because we want to score points and get votes, but let's do it because it is the right thing to do. That is what the NFP says.
The Constitution is very clear that the land belongs to everybody who is in this country - it belongs to everyone who lives on it. Whether you are white, whether you are black and whether you are brown the land belongs to everybody. Let us be mindful that two wrongs do not make a right. There is a
perception in South that all whites have been dishonest and they have stolen the land. It is not true. This is causing disunity in South Africa. The NFP says, for the purpose of harmony and calling ourselves the rainbow nation let us work together in the interest of the country and the people we serve. The NFP will support this on condition it is the right thing and we are going to address it in a manner that is not going to disadvantage anybody. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, the PAC supports this. To be landless is to be subjected to endless poverty.
Isixhosa:
Le into ayifuni buciko ANC! Umhlaba ezandleni zabantu. Mawubuyele kuthi. Enkosi.[Kwaqhwatywa].
Hon Chairperson, there is no need for any fear. The amendment of section 25 of the Constitution does not mean any exclusion of any person, but the inclusion of all. It is a lasting peace and mixed equitable access to land. Most of the people will be in a position to produce from the land of their own which is very good indeed. This is going to provide food security for all and an end to poverty, which is a great
challenge that is facing our country now. This cannot be by any regulation or policy but by amending section 25 of the Constitution without any compensation. We hope this is going to be done in a very smart and a systematic manner to the satisfaction of all. Without land there cannot be any agricultural production, there can't be any human settlement. So this has to be carried out.
The expropriation of land without compensation is not meant to offend anyone but to assist all to gain equitably access to the land. The land belongs to all. The ills of the past could not be addressed in any how but by this approach. We have to use this approach. The AIC supports the motion.
Comrade House Chairperson, Comrade Deputy President, the original sin was committed when the African and Khoisan people were forcibly dispossessed of the land and its natural resources. In 1913 this violent and inhuman act of dispossession was consolidated by the land Act No 27 of 1913, which left the African and Khoisan majority with only 7% of the total surface of South Africa. This 7% was increased to 13% in 1036. The racist Union of South Africa that committed this crime against the African and Khoisan majority divided
this 13% of the land surface into native reserves - into what our people were driven like cattle and goats and kept as labour reservoir for the colonial settlers. These crimes degraded and dehumanized our people. This degradation and dehumanisation of the African and Khoisan people are root causes of the deepening moral degeneration and social ills, including femicide, gender-based violence, abuse of women and children, drug and alcohol abuse, gangsterism, violence in schools and domestic violence. [Interjections.]
In general, the laws of our national value system, all South Africans, black and white, who believe in human and people's rights in this House, will support the motion tabled by the hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party, Pemmy Majodini. The adoption of this motion is a condition precedent for addressing the injustices of the past and in particular, the recovery of the humanity of our people, both black and white. Our glorious movement, the ANC adopted the first Bill of Rights on the African continent in 1923. In its opening paragraph, it reclaimed the African humanity, ubuntu, botho, and the right of African people to participate in the economy of the country. This Bill of rights was amplified by the Africans' Claims of 1943 and the Universal Declaration of
1948. Despite this national and international human rights culture, the Nationalist Party ascended to power on a platform of apartheid and adopted a host of racially discriminatory laws to enforce this apartheid system which was declared a crime against humanity. In 1954, South African women, both black and white, adopted the Women's Charter, followed by the 1955 Freedom Charter, after an extensive consultation with victims of apartheid.
It is remarkable that all South Africans, both black and white adopted the Freedom Charter that stated that South Africa belongs to all who live in it. The Constitution of this country provides for representative and participatory democracy which will empower all South Africans working together to resolve in a peaceful manner, and not through land invasions, all the land questions, all patriots and peace- loving South Africans know that restitution of land to its rightful owners is a prerequisite for the realisation of human and people's rights for which many men and women in South Africa and the frontline states fought and died for. Without the resolution of the land question, the regeneration of Africa that Pixley ka Isaka Seme called for in 1905 and the nonracial society that President Sefako Mapogo Makgatho,
Kolobe ya Bjatladi bja Mmamorela called for in 1917 will remain a pipe dream.
Sepedi:
Ke zwaazweo Bana ba T?iekgalaka; ke zwaazweo Balodzwi baModjadji wa Mmaleakgobela; tshiwana ankhena moloti, ke lotwa ke mabu a tsela
Re phelele Motlat?amopresidente David Mabuza, re phelele Motlat?asepikara, re phelele Sepikara Mme Thandi Modise - kopano ke maatla! [Tsenoganong.] [Magoswi.].
English:
Order, hon member! Order!
Question put: That the motion as moved by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party be agreed to.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
[Take in from minutes.]
House Chairperson, that member's thing there is not working. Please assist him.
Can you just give the name of the member to the Table Staff so that it is recorded.
Hon House Chairperson, can I make a correction, my thing is working very well ... [Laughter.] [Interjections.] ... it is just the gadget that is not working
You must tell your colleague. Inform your colleague that he should not say your thing is not working when it's working. [Interjections.] Order, hon members.
Question agreed to.
Motion accordingly agreed to.