About

Contact

Find my representatives

Find those who have been elected to represent you in government

Find those who have been elected to represent you in government

Use my location

Find representatives

Find by name

Find by committee

Search for MPs and MPLs

Legislatures

National Parliament

National Assembly

National Council of Provinces

Provincial Legislatures

Browse by province

Eastern Cape

Free State

Gauteng

Kwazulu-Natal

Limpopo

Mpumalanga

Northern Cape

North West

Western Cape

MP Performance

Follow the activities of representatives and hold them accountable

Follow the activities of representatives and hold them accountable

Activities & Performance

Questions to ministers

pmg external link icon

Parliamentary committees

pmg external link icon

MP Corner

Transparency

Attendance of meetings

Members' interests

Code of conduct

pmg external link icon

Civic Education

Learn more about governance in South Africa and your representatives

Learn more about governance in South Africa and your representatives

From our blog

Infographics

All articles

Understanding government

Central Tenets of Government

Structure of Government

How are laws made?

State Institutions Supporting Democracy

Take action

Find the actions you can take to participate in governance

Find the actions you can take to participate in governance

Have Your Say

Write to an MP

Write to a Committee

Get involved

Petitions

Visit Constituency Offices

Attending and observing parliament

Participating in calls for comment

About

Contact

  • Home »
  • Hansard »
  • 2015 »
  • February »
  • 24 »
  • PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY (Tuesday, 24 February 2015)

CABINET'S STATEMENT ON CONDUCT DURING STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS IN CONFLICT WITH DOCTRINE OF SEPARATION OF POWERS (Minister's Response)

  • ← DEMAND FOR FULL-SCALE INVESTIGATION INTO INVOLVEMENT OF STATE SECURITY AGENCY IN STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS
  • BOLD AND DECISIVE STEPS TO DEAL WITH THE STRUCTURE OF THE ECONOMY TO PLACE IT ON A QUALITATIVELY DIFFERENT PATH (Subject for Discussion) →
  • Deputy Minister Of Justice And Correctional Services (Mr J H Jeffrey) 24 Feb 2015 hansard

    To respond firstly to hon Maynier, as he is well aware that section 11 of the Powers Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Order, hon Ndlozi!

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    On a point of order, Chair: I just want to check if the Deputy Minister is allowed to speak even when the Minister is around? Is that what the Rules state? [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Can I tell you that any relevant Minister, Deputy Minister or any other Minister can respond on behalf of another Minister.

    Link in context Link
  • Deputy Minister Of Justice And Correctional Services (Mr J H Jeffrey) hansard

    Thank you, Chair. I mean to say, as the hon Ndlozi knows, that is not a rule, but the Minister is currently not here anyway. However, on the issue of section 11 ... [Interjections.] ... the hon Maynier knows ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Hon Members, order! You had your chance so allow the Deputy Minister to respond, hon Maynier. Continue, hon Deputy Minister.

    Link in context Link
  • Deputy Minister Of Justice And Correctional Services (Mr J H Jeffrey) hansard

    The hon Maynier knows that section 11, read with the definition of security services, provides for the defence force, the police and the intelligence services, which would include the State Security Agency ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    On a point of order: Rule 105(7), here read with subsection 105(6) - under Statements by members - it says, and I quote:

    (7) In the absence of a Minister who may respond to a statement as envisaged in Subrule (6), the relevant Deputy Minister or any other Minister must be given an opportunity to respond on behalf of the absent Minister

    [Interjections.]

    AN HON MEMBER: The Minister is here! [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Hon members! [Interjections.] Hon members ... [Interjections.] ... no, no, wait! Can you take your seat, hon Minister.

    Hon members, I read it out to you and said that the Minister or the Deputy Minister may respond to the statement. [Interjections.] Listen! I am still talking, please give me a hearing.

    As the Presiding Officer here, if the Minister delegates his duties to the Deputy Minister, I can't stop them. And I am going to allow the Deputy Minister ... [Interjections.] Hon Minister, please sit down unless you are responding and taking your delegated time. Let me listen to you.

    Link in context Link
  • Minister Of Justice And Correctional Services hansard

    Chairperson, I was not here when the statement was made. How do I respond to a statement that I did not hear because I was not here? [Interjections.] That is why the Deputy Minister is acting perfectly within the Rules, because he was the one who was here when I was away. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Okay. Thank you. Hon members. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Nyiko Floyd Shivambu
    Mr N F Shivambu hansard

    Chairperson, can we address you?

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Yes.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Nyiko Floyd Shivambu
    Mr N F Shivambu hansard

    Please do not do things that are contrary to the Rules of the NA. That is the main reason why this House is having lots of challenges. They emanate from the rulings of the Presiding Officers.

    The Rule is very clear here. Let us read it slowly for you so that you can understand it properly. [Interjections.] It says "In the absence of the Minister". [Interjections.] The Minister is here, why is the Deputy Minister speaking when the Minister is here? He is undermining him. [Interjection.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    I have read that.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Nyiko Floyd Shivambu
    Mr N F Shivambu hansard

    We cannot allow people to undermine Ministers. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Don't continue, hon member. I heard you correctly and you showed me on which Rule you were rising. There it is - it says so, "In the absence of the Minister ... ".

    However, I am saying that I am allowing this delegation of duty. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Nyiko Floyd Shivambu
    Mr N F Shivambu hansard

    But it is not there in the Rules; the delegation is not in the Rules. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Chief Whip Of The Opposition hansard

    On a point of order!

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    We will deal with that.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Nyiko Floyd Shivambu
    Mr N F Shivambu hansard

    It is not in the rules that the Minister can delegate the Deputy Minister. It says in the Minister's absence he speaks. [Interjections.] If the Minister is here he must keep quiet and sit down. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Hon Shivambu, please don't talk back to me. I have ruled on this matter.

    HON MEMBERS: No! [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Nyiko Floyd Shivambu
    Mr N F Shivambu hansard

    No! [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Don't talk back to me. Are you saying I shouldn't allow him? I have allowed him. [Interjections.] Because I am sitting here.

    Link in context Link
  • Chief Whip Of The Opposition hansard

    On a point of order!

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Wait! Because I am sitting here you can take your seat. [Interjections.] I am still speaking. I am watching this House and I know why I make certain deviations, and the deviation that I made was exactly on the basis that was raised by the hon Minister. Hon Steenhuisen?

    Link in context Link
  • Chief Whip Of The Opposition hansard

    Allow me to help you, perhaps Madam House Chair. Neither the hon Jeffrey nor the hon Masutha are the relevant Ministers in this case. If one looks at the statement read by the hon Maynier it was directed to the Minister of State Security who quickly scampered out of the House in case he had to be accountable. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Hon member, you are out of order. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Chief Whip Of The Opposition hansard

    I am not out of order. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    You are out of order hon member! [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Chief Whip Of The Opposition hansard

    Madam House Chair ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Will you sit down and let me address you.

    Link in context Link
  • Chief Whip Of The Opposition hansard

    Madam House Chair, allow me to finish, please. [Interjections.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    No!

    Link in context Link
  • Chief Whip Of The Opposition hansard

    The relevant Minister is the Minister of State Security. If he is not here the relevant one is the Deputy Minister, and the Deputy Minister of State Security is not here. Hon Masutha is maybe being given the opportunity to respond because he is a Minister. The hon Jeffery is not a Minister, he is not a member of Cabinet, but he is a Deputy Minister.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    On the relevancy of the question, as to who should answer it, I never heard the hon Maynier saying that the question should be answered by the Minister of State Security. [Interjections.]

    Okay, let me talk. I am still talking. [Interjections.] If that is the case - and maybe I missed it - there was nothing wrong in hon Jeffery responding. But if you specifically ... [Interjections.] Wait, hon members! How are you going to hear me out? If you specifically asked for the Minister of State Security, because she was here, let me pass and allow them to settle it so that we can go on to the next response. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of John Jeffery
    Deputy Minister Of Justice And Correctional Services (Mr J H Jeffery) hansard

    Chair, can I respond to another question which is not on this one? [Interjections.]

    HON MEMBER: No, no!

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    On a point of order, Chair.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    There is a point of order. When I have ruled ... [Interjections.] Is it on the same matter?

    AN HON MEMBER: The Deputy Minister is here! [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    Can I address you, hon Chair?

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Continue, hon Ndlozi.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    Chairperson, you must assist us all because these Rules - marah aaah! [Laughter.] [Interjections.] You know, Chairperson, here in the Cabinet ... [Laughter.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Hee-eh, hee-eh, hon Ndlozi!

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    Chairperson, I want that ruling to be clear so that we all understand the ruling properly. You know, these Rules 6 and 7, they would not have been written separately if the provision for an absent Minister was not important, in terms of how we should read it. So, it says a Minister who is present must respond. Then it makes a provision for when that Minister is not present, because if a Minister speaks here ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    I think you have made your point.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    This guy is not a member of the Cabinet.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Hon Ndlozi, no, don't continue.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    He is not a member of the Cabinet. [Interjections.] He is responding to questions and it's a ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Hon Ndlozi ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    He is undermining the Minister, and it is important for us to rise and defend the national ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Hon Ndlozi, it is okay. I heard you and have ruled on the matter. And I asked - and I am not going to repeat what I said - that the hon Maynier asked specifically the Minister of State Security; that is why I allowed him to speak. But now, I still have three sports for the ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of John Jeffery
    Deputy Minister Of Justice And Correctional Services (Mr J H Jeffery) hansard

    Chairperson, can I respond to the hon Carter's matter? [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Hon Jeffery, I still have three spots left, and I will allow you now to respond.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of John Jeffery
    Deputy Minister Of Justice And Correctional Services (Mr J H Jeffery) hansard

    Thank you, Chairperson. It was the hon Carter's statement which was on a constitutional matter, which I think I can respond to.

    She seemed to be complaining about the fact that because Cabinet issues a statement complaining about Parliament that that is a violation of the separation of powers. I am not quite sure where she got that idea from, but cannot Cabinet express a view on Parliament?

    To the hon Ndlozi, this is a constitutional matter, the Minister is out of the House and therefore, I can speak. [Interjections.] It is also interesting to note ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Hon members, please give hon Jeffery a chance.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of John Jeffery
    Deputy Minister Of Justice And Correctional Services (Mr J H Jeffery) hansard

    It was interesting to note, when I was responding to a DA statement, how the EFF defended them. Thank you.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    Chair, may I address you, please? Can we put it on record that the hon Minister, a black Minister, ran out in order for his white Deputy Minister to respond. We would like to put that on record. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Can you please remove the racist reference ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    Because we view it as a matter of a national question. [Interjections.] He ran out - gone!

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Hon Ndlozi, can you please remove the racial naming of it. [Interjections.] I am not going to put it on record. Listen to me. Listen to me, hon members! You cannot come here ... [Interjections.]

    No, hon member, I am speaking. You cannot come here and start that racial labelling by saying the hon black Minister allowed the hon white Minister to do this or that. I am not going to allow that. So, I take it as no point of order. [Interjections.] It's no point of order!

    Link in context Link
  • Ms M T Kubayi hansard

    On a point of order, House Chair. I think it does not have to end there. The hon Ndlozi must be made to withdraw the unconstitutional remark that he has made. [Interjections.] He is a Member of Parliament and has taken an oath in terms of the Constitution and the laws of this country. He must withdraw the unconstitutional remark that he has made. [Interjections.] It can't be left unchallenged.

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    Hon Ndlozi, please, please. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    Chairperson, ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    No, no, I am still addressing hon ... [Interjections.] No, no, no, I must address him ... [Interjections.] because it was ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    But Chair, we must ... [Interjections.] ... we can't be harassed by ... [Interjections.] ... and the next thing you want to change it ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    No, no, wait! You don't know what I am going to say. Why are you standing? Sit down. [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mbuyiseni Quintin Ndlozi
    Mr M Q Ndlozi hansard

    You have taken a decision so why do you want to change it now because you have been given advice from somewhere else?

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Nyiko Floyd Shivambu
    Mr N F Shivambu hansard

    Chair ... [Interjections.]

    Link in context Link
  • Picture of Mmatlala Grace Boroto
    House Chairperson (Ms M G Boroto) hansard

    No! I am not changing any decision. Why do you ... [Interjections.] hon Shivambu, please wait to be recognised. I was going to address the hon Ndlozi and the hon member who is asking for a withdrawal, I think I said that was not a point of order. Having said that I understand where you are coming from. Can we follow the other structures of saying what you wanted to say because I have already ruled on the issue. [Interjections.] I don't need your assistance, hon members I told you long before that I don't need any assistance.

    Is there any other Ministerial response? Hon members, that concludes the Ministers' responses. Thank you very much.

    Link in context Link
  • ← DEMAND FOR FULL-SCALE INVESTIGATION INTO INVOLVEMENT OF STATE SECURITY AGENCY IN STATE OF THE NATION ADDRESS
  • BOLD AND DECISIVE STEPS TO DEAL WITH THE STRUCTURE OF THE ECONOMY TO PLACE IT ON A QUALITATIVELY DIFFERENT PATH (Subject for Discussion) →

Correct this page

Follow us

  • Facebook
  • Twitter
  • Instagram

Sitemap

  • Home
  • Rep Locator
  • People
    • Find by name
    • Parliament
      • National Assembly
      • National Council of Provinces
    • Provinces
      • Eastern Cape
      • Free State
      • Gauteng
      • KwaZulu-Natal
      • Limpopo
      • Mpumalanga
      • Northern Cape
      • North West
      • Western Cape
  • Blog
  • MP Profiles
  • MP Attendance
  • Public Participation
    • Make yourself heard
    • Elections
      • Election 2014 Candidates
      • Election 2019 Candidates
    • Petitions
    • Write to a Committee
  • Hot Topics
    • Questions
    • MP Assets
    • MP Corner
    • Infographics
  • Links
  • Get the data
  • For Representatives

Contact us

People's Assembly
contact@pa.org.za

Tel: (021) 465 8885

Fax: (021) 465 8887

2nd Floor 9 Church Square Parliament Street
Cape Town 8001
South Africa

Disclaimer

The data for this site has been sourced form a range of organisations and websites and often received in formats that are hard to process. As a result, errors can occur - if you see something that you think is an error, please click on the "Correct This Page" button and let us know so that we can investigate. Please click here to read more about our source data.

  • Privacy
  • Give us feedback

This site runs on open source code written by mySociety.