Hon Minister, can you hold on? Is there a point of order?
Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker. On a point of order: Are the people in the gallery allowed to participate?
Continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: ... that the path we are on has been a long and difficult one.
Yinde lendlela! [We have a long way to go!]
This was started over a century ago through the heroic struggles of the "sheroes" and stalwarts of our struggle, such as Charlotte Maxeke, Lillian Ngoyi, Helen Joseph, Rahima Moosa, Sophie De Bruyn, Dorothy Nyembe, Albertina Sisulu, Ruth Mompati, Victoria Mxenge, Mmadinoge, Winnie Madikizela-Mandela and many others, who are the embodiment of 101 years of the relentless forward march towards the total emancipation of women in South Africa. [Applause.]
In the past century the struggle for women empowerment and gender equality has been fought against the deeply entrenched patriarchal system that subjected the majority of our women in South Africa to triple oppression. These women said that the women of South Africa must fight side by side with their men. Today, they are free from the triple oppression wherein they were oppressed as women, as black people and as workers.
It was former President Nelson Mandela who, during his inaugural state of the nation address 20 years ago, asserted that -
... freedom cannot be achieved unless the women have been emancipated from all forms of oppression. ... and ... have been empowered to intervene in all aspects of life as equals with any other member of society.
This assertion has placed on all of us a responsibility to ensure that we accelerate efforts towards the empowerment of women so that they are indeed freed from all forms of oppression. If you have never experienced the effects of colonialism and apartheid, combined with the highly patriarchal system that we continue to live in, you cannot begin to appreciate the need for a vehicle such as the Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill to accelerate the empowerment of women in our society - socially, politically and economically - towards the total emancipation of women.
Why is there such a Bill? There is consensus from various quarters, and internationally, that South Africa has some of the most progressive policies and laws that are aimed at advancing women empowerment and gender equality.
However, while significant strides have been made to empower women and promote gender equality, women still bear a disproportionate burden of the triple challenges of poverty, inequality and unemployment. Women continue to be marginalised and discriminated against in regard to economic opportunities and the labour market, as well as access to land, credit and finance.
Again, just like in many other areas where transformation is needed, the women of this country have vociferously called upon the ANC-led government to ensure that their lot does not remain marginalised forever. Hence, the Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill seeks to ensure that gender is mainstreamed in all spheres of life, both in the public and private sectors.
The Bill will also ensure that policies and laws are engendered, while equal and full representation of women in decision-making structures is enforced.
This justifies the relentless struggles of the women of 1913, when they decided that enough was enough and they would not carry passes in their motherland any more, and the women of 1956, when they marched to the Union Buildings and told J G Strijdom, "Wathint' abafazi, wathint' imbokodo uzakufa" [When you strike a woman, you strike a rock, and you will die.]
These stalwarts and many others longed to see this day. I have no doubt that wherever they are today, they are smiling in the knowledge that we have not betrayed their cause.
Bayalilizela lapho bekhona. Bathi, malibongwe igama lamakhosikazi, malibongwe! [They are ululating wherever they are. They are saying, let the name of women be praised, let it be praised!]
Hon members, let me comment on some arguments that were advanced against this Bill. With regard to the constitutionality of the Bill, the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, under the Bill of Rights, states in section 9(2):
Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote ... equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.
Regarding the duplication of other laws as well as the Commission for Gender Equality, those who cry duplication have failed to indicate specifically where this duplication is, except for making wide references to legislation. The Bill does not seek to duplicate existing legislation. Furthermore, it will ensure that women are prioritised in various Acts. The Ministry's mandate and that of the Commission for Gender Equality, if anything, give greater opportunity to work together to advance gender equality.
The Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill fights for the progressive realisation of the aim of at least 50% representation of women in decision- making structures. The minority within this House have chosen to ignore two key words - "progressive realisation". Instead, they wrongly state that the Bill is a top-down manipulation to achieve equality. Quite clearly, they do not want women empowered in this country. It is regrettable that women's poverty remains the central manifestation and direct result of a lack of social, economic and political power that women should enjoy, which reinforces subordination and constraints.
The ANC is the only political party to have adopted the 50/50 representation of women in all its structures and at all levels of society, which is fortunate. The 50% gender parity policy that is articulated in the Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill being debated here today is due to the ANC. [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, is the hon Minister prepared to take an easy question?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: No, the women are waiting. They do not want to waste time ... [Interjections.]
It is an easy question, very easy! [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: ... before they enjoy their own freedom.
She will not take your question. Hon Minister, try to round off!
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: It is due to the ANC's commitment to women empowerment and gender equality that today we have 44% of women parliamentarians in this House and 42% of Cabinet Ministers. It is thanks to the political will and leadership of President Jacob Zuma and the ANC. [Applause.] The ANC supports this Bill.
Sincane isikhathi; ngisazobuya futhi! [Ihlombe.] [I don't have much time; I'll come back again! [Applause.]]
Thank you, hon Minister. I would like to request that the guests in the gallery do not participate in the debate. This includes clapping and responding to what is happening in the House. We know that you are excited, but it does not necessarily mean that you may participate actively. You may participate only by listening. Thank you very much.
Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, and hon members ...
... ngiyanibingelela lapho phezulu nani bo mama. [... I also greet the women who are up there.]
Indeed, hon Deputy Speaker, the government of the ANC has yet another good story to tell to the people of South Africa, particularly women. That story is the Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill, which we will pass today, hopefully with the support of the DA, although I cannot bet on that.
With this Bill the ANC government is moving South Africa forward, very close to one of the ideals of a national democratic society - a society whose values were captured by the former President of Mozambique, the late Comrade Samora Machel, when he said:
The emancipation of women is not an act of charity, the result of a humanitarian or compassionate attitude. The liberation of women is a fundamental necessity for the revolution, the guarantee of its continuity and the precondition for its victory. The main objective of the revolution is to destroy the system of exploitation and build a new society which releases the potentialities of human beings.
The Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill is aimed, among others, at ensuring that women have equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. It also seeks to promote gender equality, as well as to ensure that all the country's commitments to the international community are complied with.
The Bill also aims to provide for the implementation of measures to achieve the progressive realisation of a minimum of 50% representation and the meaningful participation of women in decision-making positions and structures, including boards, of designated public and private bodies. The Bill puts paid once and for all to the myth that the woman's place is in the kitchen. With this Bill the ANC government is saying that the boardroom is as much a woman's place as any other place in South Africa.
The Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill proposes a number of measures whose purpose is to mainstream and institutionalise women's empowerment and gender equality. In this regard, the Bill takes cognisance of the ANC's long-held view, which asserts that interventions aimed at eliminating gender inequality need to be institutionally enforced.
This is precisely because patriarchal oppression was embedded in the economic, social, religious, cultural, family and other relations in all communities. Its eradication cannot be an assumed consequence of democracy. All manifestations of patriarchy, from the feminisation of poverty, physical and psychological abuse, and undermining of self-confidence, to open and hidden forms of exclusion from positions of authority and power, need to be eliminated.
The Bill empowers the Minister with the necessary governance authority to monitor, review and oversee gender mainstreaming, the promotion of women empowerment and equal representation, and meaningful participation of women in all decision-making positions and structures.
The above-mentioned provisions will enable the protection and advancement of women and girl children, as instructed by the equality clause of section 9(2) of the Constitution, through public education on prohibited practices that discriminate on the grounds of gender. With this Bill we will educate the boy child that it is not cool to discriminate against the girl child. We will raise the consciousness of men for them to understand and appreciate that women have a right to walk freely, follow their aspirations freely, and contribute to society as equals.
Through this Bill the ANC government will support and reinforce the rights and remedies contained in applicable legislation, policies and mechanisms on the empowerment of women and the promotion of gender equality.
As the ANC government we have over the past 20 years enacted legislation which seeks to empower women, as well as to combat and eliminate gender- based violence. With the support of patriotic parties, other than the DA, we have sought to make the lives of women better. We have heard our people when they have said that this is not enough. Now we are moving South Africa forward. We are reinforcing the rights and remedies on the empowerment of women.
The Bill enhances the capacity for the implementation of applicable legislation through the development of integrated strategies, frameworks, programmes, plans, activities and budgets which aim to eliminate structural and systemic inequalities and to enable women to gain power and control over decisions and resources that determine the quality of their lives in a sustainable manner.
How can a party not support such an empowering and enabling objective in the struggle of women? Women of South Africa, judge for yourselves who has your best interests at heart, and decide what to do on 7 May 2014. DA, your days are numbered! [Laughter.]
The Bill provides a legal framework for advancing, developing, promoting and protecting the rights of women through capacity building and training, lobbying, advocacy, awareness raising, empowerment and monitoring of compliance by all entities. The Bill enables the work of facilitating capacity building and the development of strategies for the implementation of gender mainstreaming and gender budgeting. In this regard, the Bill moves forward the struggle for the mainstreaming and institutionalising of women's empowerment and gender equality.
In supporting this Bill the ANC takes its cue from the President of the Republic of South Africa - the only President whose party will move South Africa forward - President Jacob Zuma. [Applause.] In his address at the national Women's Day celebrations on 9 August 2009, the President magnified the role of the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities, stating that:
The ... Ministry will monitor other government departments to ensure the mainstreaming of gender, children's rights, and disability considerations into all programmes of government and other sectors.
The President reiterated in his state of the nation address in February 2010 the need to integrate gender equity measures in government programmes of action to ensure that women, children and people with disabilities can access developmental opportunities.
The legal framework of this Bill enables facilitating compliance, quality and timeous reporting on the country's commitments to international treaties, and the prohibition of all forms of practices with adverse effects on women.
Women of South Africa, the ANC government will not stand idly by when women are abused, violated and brutally raped. We will support this Bill because it advances the struggle for the prohibition of all these evil practices. We wait to hear what the DA will say. We have now become familiar with their hypocrisy. They will say they support the idea of women's empowerment and then find a thinly veiled excuse not to support this progressive piece of legislation. That is what they stand for. The ANC is moving the struggle for the women in rural areas and girl children forward.
The existing legislation on women's empowerment and gender equality faces two related challenges. These are a lack of implementation of existing policies because of ignorance of their existence, and concerns about lack of enforcement of existing legislation. This particular Bill addresses both these concerns.
With regard to public education, the Bill provides for public education and awareness to address discriminatory practices and to empower women for meaningful participation in the economy. The Bill also provides that the Minister may intervene to enhance the public education programmes by designated companies.
Insofar as enforcement is concerned, the revised version of the Bill provides for punitive measures for noncompliance by the private sector, among others. In this regard, companies may be fined by as much as 10% of their annual turnover and/or imprisonment may be imposed. There is also a provision for the Minister to name and shame the culprits who fail to comply. When the Bill first came to us, the DA said that it did not have teeth. When the Bill was amended to include enforcement, they said that the teeth were very sharp and bit too hard!
This Bill lays a solid foundation for the inclusion of women in the mainstream economy where they can participate meaningfully through ownership of significant stakes on an equitable basis with their male counterparts.
As I conclude ... [Interjections.] ... I want to tell the women of South Africa that they should not be deceived by the DA, because the DA is only there to protect the wealth of the rich. We are reminded of the words ... [Interjections.]
Order! Hon members, order!
... of a man who needs no introduction, uTata Nelson Mandela, when he said that -
... freedom cannot be achieved unless the women have been emancipated from all forms of oppression ... our endeavours must be about the liberation of the woman, the emancipation of the man and the liberty of the child.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the committee recommends the Bill to the House for adoption. I thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, good morning to all our guests in the gallery - you are welcome.
When this Bill was introduced to the committee in November 2013, I realised that although it was noble in intent, aiming to give effect to the letter and spirit of our Constitution regarding the equal enjoyment of all rights and of freedom by every person, the constitutionality and feasibility of the Bill was of great concern.
Although it was continuously mentioned during public submissions and deliberations, the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities was in complete denial about the fact that this Bill intrudes on the constitutional mandate of the important Chapter 9 institution, the Commission for Gender Equality, CGE. The Constitution states that the CGE has:
... the power to monitor, investigate, research, educate, lobby, advise and report on issues concerning gender equality.
The powers of the CGE are further expanded on in the Commission on Gender Equality Act, Act 39 of 1996.
The Bill not only overrides the mandate of the CGE, and the Minister mentioned this, but also duplicates some provisions in a host of other Acts, including the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act, Act 4 of 2000, the Employment Equity Act, Act 55 of 1998, the Basic Conditions of Employment Act, Act 75 of 1997, the Broad- Based Black Economic Empowerment Act, Act 53 of 2003 and the Human Rights Commission Act, Act 54 of 1994.
The issue of the duplication of legislation was mentioned in 37 of the 41 public submissions heard by this committee. The Legal Resources Centre had the following to say in their submission:
We emphasise the need for an approach that sees the harmonization of interventions between public bodies in order to achieve gender equality. This is currently sorely absent in the implementation of government policies and plans.
Even the Green Paper produced in preparation for this Bill called on the Ministry to co-ordinate a comprehensive process for reviewing and assessing current legislation and policy. We need to know why existing pieces of legislation and policy are silent on and/or unresponsive to gender-based challenges on all levels. We also need to know why existing pieces of legislation - and it is too late to mention today that they will be implemented - are not being implemented effectively, for instance, the Domestic Violence Act, Act 116 of 1998. How will the women of South Africa benefit from another piece of legislation that does not address the real issues and that cannot be implemented? [Applause.]
When asked what research informed this Bill, the department pointed to a Statistics SA report that showed that women are vulnerable and in need of an intervention. The DA acknowledges that the women of South Africa are vulnerable. However, it is not the women climbing the corporate ladder who need the intervention. Nor is it the back-benchers in the ANC, who heckle and clap hands and earn big salaries but hardly contribute in holding the department to account, who need intervention. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The Statistics SA report was clear that women bear the brunt of poverty in our communities ...
Order! There is a point of order, hon member.
... and that they disproportionately carry the burden of care for children, ...
Hon member!
... old people and the sick in their communities.
There is a point of order. What is your point of order, hon member?
Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: You have requested that the people on the gallery should stop participating in the debate, but they have been continuing to do so. Will you please rule on this matter? Thank you. [Interjections.]
All right.
You are wasting my time. Sit down! Sit down!
Deputy Speaker, there are a number of issues to be addressed. We need a comprehensive audit of existing legislation to identify where the gaps are. Only then can we discuss the need for further legislation. We need to know why crucial pieces of legislation are not sufficiently implemented and what can be done to ensure that their objectives are realised.
We need to address the root causes of inequality and disempowerment. We need to recognise women's unpaid labour and the technology involved, and that women do the bulk of caring and housework within their communities.
We must ensure that our schooling system adequately prepares all young people for the demands of a modern economy; that learners do not drop out of school at the age of 12, 14 or 16; and that sufficient funds are available for postschool education and training.
We need to protect women, girls and sexual minorities from violence. Empowerment means nothing if people are scared to walk in the streets and, despite a law to combat this, live in fear of their domestic partners. We need to stop the scourge of teenage pregnancies. Teenage pregnancies trap many girls and their children in permanent dependency and degrading poverty, often accompanied by sexual violence.
We need to intervene in cases where fathers leave mothers to fend for kids all on their own. We need to stop the papgeld [alimony] dads who go on the run. We need to expand Operation Isondlo, launched in 2005, to help decrease the backlog of maintenance defaulters.
Today, Deputy Speaker, I call upon you in this regard. We need to start with the ancient provision of the Powers and Privileges of Parliament Act, Act 91 of 1963, that prohibits any Member of Parliament from being served with a summons or arrested on the precincts, especially where maintenance for women and children is at stake. [Applause.]
Only if interventions like these take place, will the lives of people like Vaseka Ntshinga change. She is a Du Noon mother of two, whose only income is the child support grant she receives. She is quoted as saying that it is not nice having to depend on the government to put food on your table. She said that she had tried to apply for jobs, but having only passed Grade 9 she could not even find a cleaning job. She added that the fathers of her children had told her that they were also unemployed and they could not help her and so the struggle goes on and on and on. [Applause.]
The department routinely complains of financial and capacity constraints. It is therefore hard to understand how the department will be able to work with and monitor individual designated bodies in addition to achieving its annual monitoring and evaluation targets. The annual report of 2012-13 reflected the extent to which this department is failing to achieve modest monitoring and evaluating outcomes, even before the implementation of the Bill. This department only achieved 10 out of 16 targets set for the monitoring and evaluation of subprogrammes. [Interjections.]
Should the reporting on gender empowerment that currently falls under the Employment Equity Act be moved to this department, the advances the Department of Labour has made in over a decade will be lost, not to mention the fact that it will bring back the problems faced in the early 2000s. It is thus doubtful that this understaffed and underskilled department, infested with skewed spending patterns, will be able to do a better job than the Department of Labour. The Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities has let the women of South Africa down. This Bill is a lifeline to a department that has failed to identify the true barriers to empowerment and has failed to co-ordinate a government in the effort to address these barriers.
Thank you, hon Lamoela. Your time is up.
Frankly, the ANC's approach to gender representation ...
Thank you, hon member. Your time is up.
... is confusing and unclear, as once again the quota list of the ANC is topped by a male ...
Hon member, your time is up!
... and the ANC Women's League cannot appoint a woman for president. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Hon Speaker and hon members, the political rights of women are relegated to the back burner in all political parties. Gender equality is reduced to representations. In government, in other instances, that representation is zero.
The question that begs an answer is whether those few women in leadership positions are taken seriously by their counterparts. Do they really make decisions or do they simply take decisions made by their counterparts and run with them?
The political rights of women, like those of all the citizens in our land, are enshrined in section 19 of the Constitution, but few women occupy leadership positions. In South Africa we have been reading comments, especially from women leaders, on how South Africa is not ready for a woman president. This is in total contrast to the vision and mission of the women of 1956. This argument is not supported by what is happening internationally.
Clause 7 of this Bill speaks against the domination of the majority by the minority in all spheres of life. In South Africa, the 52% of women are dominated by a mere 48% of men. What is wrong with wanting to correct that? Why is it politically incorrect in South Africa to have 50% representation in a constitutional democracy? In Nairobi, Kenya, more than 400 young women drawn from various political parties held a demonstration to petition the registrar of political parties and the justice minister to ensure that at least 50% of all elective and appointive positions are allocated to them.
According to the principal State Law Adviser there is no right in the Constitution that is absolute. Cope would like to remind the House that according to section 8(1) of the Constitution:
The Bill of Rights applies to all law, and binds the legislature, the executive, the judiciary and all organs of state.
This includes, amongst other things, the addressing and redressing of gender disparities in the academic landscape of our country, which is still male-dominated.
Cope supports the Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Speaker, before you continue, I wish to note that there is a person standing in the gallery and that makes me uncomfortable.
Hon Van der Merwe, you can continue.
Hon Speaker, this Van der Merwe?
Yes. Do you want to speak about women? Yes, you can speak.
The hon member referred to somebody in the gallery. I think that that person wanted to shout that the ANC has a bad story. [Laughter.]
Hon Van der Merwe, can you be serious! Can we call for order? Whoever is standing in the gallery, please sit down! Continue, hon member.
Deputy Speaker, at the outset in this debate it is important to note that the aims and objectives of the Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill, also known as the Wege Bill, are laudable and should be commended.
The Wege Bill enters into a legal landscape abounding with legislation aimed at protecting our women. The primary obstacle to women's empowerment and gender equity is therefore not the absence of legislation, but rather the poor implementation of our legislation. In particular, we must ask the question: Why have existing legislation and existing bodies such as the Commission for Gender Equality not been successful in their aims and objectives?
Putting aside that fundamental question, let us look at the facts. Currently, despite making up 43% of the economically active population, women are still chronically underrepresented in senior positions in the private and public sectors. According to the South African Women in Leadership Census 2012, women in South Africa constitute only 17% of all directors and a mere 3,6% of chief executive officers.
Yet research by Forbes has shown that companies that have women well represented at senior levels perform better than those who do not. This builds the case that women do make a valuable contribution at decision- making levels.
However, despite agreeing wholeheartedly with this notion, the IFP has concerns with aspects of the Bill that make women's empowerment through this legislation potentially unattainable.
The Bill requires designated public bodies and designated private bodies to achieve a minimum of 50% representation of women in decision-making structures. Following the submission by these designated bodies of their plans of action to the Minister, failure to comply with this legislation will have consequences either in the form of a fine or imprisonment.
In the court case, Minister of Finance and Another v Van Heerden, 2004(6) SA 121(CC), the Constitutional Court pointed out that the achievement of equality goes to the bedrock of our constitutional architecture and preoccupies our constitutional thinking. Our courts have emphasised that rigid quotas for head counts and blanket exclusions on the grounds of race and gender are unlikely to withstand constitutional judicial scrutiny.
Also, the Wege Bill does not make provision for the sheer logistics and the added capacity which would be required to implement this law.
It must also be said that the way in which public submissions were largely dismissed by the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities is disconcerting. Inputs at committee level met the same fate at times.
But the question remains: Will this Bill translate into greater empowerment and equity for our women? Colleagues, it stands to reason that this legislation will do very well in empowering those lucky few who are already in public and private institutions. Yet we are still to address the root causes of why women are not climbing the career pipeline. The poor quality of our education system for example, which does not empower our young women, remains unaddressed.
Today, as a multiparty democracy representing a multitude of voices, it is imperative that we sing from the same hymn sheet when it comes to critical issues like gender equality. We have done so in our committee, and I would therefore like to thank my colleagues in our committee, especially the hon Helen Lamoela. Despite our differences, we continue to share the dream of improving the lives of ordinary women in our country.
I would also like to thank our committee stalwarts, Crystal Levendale, Kashifa Abrahams, Lorenzo Wakefield, Neliswa Nobatana and our legal guru, Mr Gary Rhoda.
In closing, despite our passing this legislation today, the reality is that for many women in South Africa the constitutional ideals of equality, transformation and empowerment remain a pipedream. I thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, let me start by stating quite clearly and unequivocally that the FF Plus is against any form of discrimination against women. We can never support that and we believe in absolute equality between men and women, as a point of departure. I think everybody in this House believes in that.
However, the Minister started by telling us that this is another good story to tell. We are getting tired of all the so-called good stories, because the problem, and it goes beyond this Bill, is that the ANC has had a very sad and bad story to tell since 1994. The reason for that is the following. The ANC has failed to unlock the enormous potential in South Africa, in all the people of this country, men and women, from all creeds, colours and all the different groups. They have not succeeded in getting that energy going to make this country a better place, and now they are trying all kinds of things to improve South Africa.
Let's get to this Bill. The hon chairperson of the committee, the hon Ramodike, basically said that this Bill would now help to make it possible to teach a boy child to respect women and girls. You don't need legislation to teach children the basics of life.
Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: ...
There is a point of order.
Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I am not Ramodike; I am Ramodibe.
Okay, it is corrected.
All right. Deputy Chairperson, I will continue. You don't need legislation to teach your child the basics of life, among them to respect women. You don't need legislation to do that; you just do it. There are certain things in life that you cannot do. You can legislate tomorrow to say that the sun should rise in the north and set in the south and it won't happen.
Let us look at a few women, a few women who have got to the top ...
Deputy Speaker, I just want to ask if the member is ready to take a question.
Hon Deputy Speaker, I am absolutely ready, but you must understand that I was given three minutes to speak and I have one minute and 20 seconds left. If you don't deduct from my time, I will gladly answer the question.
Continue, hon member!
I should continue? Thank you. The hon Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma has reached the top of the African Union. [Interjections.] Yes. [Interjections.] Yes.
Order, hon members!
Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi is in a very senior position in the United Nations. Maria Ramos is in a very senior position in Barclays Africa.
Did they attain those positions on merit or because of a quota? No, they got there because of merit. When this Bill goes through, we will have women in positions because of quota, not because of merit. Now the hon Minister should think when she goes home tonight about whether she is a quota Minister or a merit Minister. I really wonder, but she should know. That is where we are going.
The problem is that this Bill is trying to do the impossible. The ANC is rushing this Bill through Parliament and through the system. However, you cannot legislate certain things that should be normal and that should be in the hearts and minds of South Africans out there.
The hon Lamoela said exactly what the real issues and challenges facing women out there are. However, you are not addressing those; you are busy with window-dressing!
I wanted to ask the Minister a question, but she was not prepared to answer. So let me ask her the question now. You said to the House just now that the ANC is the only party that has 50%/50% representation throughout their structures. Hon Minister, is that the truth, and is that the correct position when you look down your national list from position number one? Don't you have 50%/50% representation only after the first 80 positions? I will wait for your response when you reply to the debate. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, the ACDP is acutely aware of the struggles women have faced throughout the ages, and struggles far too many still face them today. We know that it is extremely important to ensure that women have the protection and support they need, and we commend the objectives of this Bill to promote gender equality and to empower women.
The ACDP was, like many others, very concerned about the threat that the Bill in its original form posed to religious freedom and the autonomy of religious and charitable organisations to govern their own affairs. Given the broad definition of private bodies to which the Act would have applied, this would have included churches and religious or charitable organisations.
The ACDP, on behalf of many organisations, including those that made oral presentations to the committee, commends and expresses its gratitude to the portfolio committee, to the department and to the Minister. They really did listen and applied their minds to the submissions on this issue - amending the Bill to exclude public benefit organisations from the application of the Act.
We believe that much of the potential harm that could have resulted from this legislation has now been averted, that religious organisations will no longer be forced to exercise a choice between obeying their faith and obeying the law, and that this is a victory for democracy.
The ACDP still questions, however, whether South Africa really needs additional equity legislation. Doesn't it rather need a greater commitment to implementing existing laws? During the public hearings that none of the presentations that I heard - although for very different reasons - were actually in favour of this legislation, and all appealed for the Minister to go back and consult more widely. Gender groups were particularly offended and did not see this legislation as addressing any of what they understood to be the real concerns. Business also expressed grave concerns, not to mention political parties.
During the portfolio committee deliberations the department assured members that this legislation called for plans only, and that businesses would not be expected to comply with targets overnight. Designated bodies would have a year in which to submit a plan on gender education, etc. These plans would set new targets where necessary for progressive implementation and give reasons why this was necessary.
Despite these explanations, the ACDP is still apprehensive about the broad powers given to the Minister in this Bill to interfere in the affairs of private business and political parties. No disrespect to the Minister is intended, but apart from broad powers being a concern, this department is not a department that is geared to addressing the needs of business and entrepreneurial initiatives, which are vital to the development and success of our country, and will impact enormously on the quality of life of women.
The ACDP previously pointed out that the original draft would most likely attract a constitutional challenge which would be costly, wasting time and money, while achieving very little. Changes to this Bill, in our opinion, have significantly lessened potential anomalies. However, we are not convinced that it will stand up in the face of a constitutional challenge and this is problematic. For these reasons, the ACDP will not be supporting the Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs G K TSEKE Deputy Speaker, hon Members of Parliament and guests in the gallery, let me start with the hon Lamoela. You were just making a lot of noise and not telling the public about the advantages of this Bill. It is because you are representing the voices of the few. The ANC will pass this Bill with or without you. [Applause.]
Dingwaga di le masome a mabedi tsa kgololosego mo nageng ya rona di tlisitse diphetogo tse dintsi mo matshelong a MaAforika Borwa. Bomme ba ne ba gateletswe thata mo dingwageng tse di fetileng. Ke ka moo re le Puso e e eteletsweng pele ke mokgatlho wa batho, mokgatlho o o tsayang tsiya dikgatlhego tsa batho, bomme ba ba leng kwa metseselegaeng, bomme ka kakaretso le bana ba basetsana, o tlileng ka molaokakangwa o, gore matshelo a bone a fetoge.
Gompieno, re le Ntlokgolo ya Boset?haba re tla fetisa molaokakangwa o, o o netefatsang e bile o bona gore ditshwanelo le tekatekano ya bomme le borre mo nageng ya rona e a lekana le gore bomme ba tseye karolo mo ekonoming ya naga. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[The 20 years of freedom in our country have brought many changes into the lives of many South Africans. During the previous years women were oppressed too much. That is why, as the government which is led by the party of the people that takes into consideration the needs of the people and the women who are in the rural areas, including women in general and girl children, we have come up with this Bill to change their lives.
Today in this national House we will pass this Bill that guarantees the rights and equality of males and females in our country and ensures that they are the same and that women take part in the economy of our country.] Hon Deputy Speaker, over the past 20 years the ANC government has put in place legislation and protocols to fight gender-based violence. We cannot have gender-based violence as part of our heritage under the ANC government.
Our girl children would never be proud to inherit, and have to pass on, this legacy from us as their forebears. For as long as gender-based violence continues, we cannot proudly celebrate the value of equality, which is enshrined in the Constitution, much as we cannot proudly celebrate our freedom in the face of poverty, inequality and unemployment.
The Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill, commonly known as the Wege Bill, provides for a legal framework to deal with the above constraints which inhibit the full potential of women. The Bill compels designated private and public bodies, among others, to develop and implement plans and measures to educate the public on practices that unfairly discriminate on the grounds of gender, including gender-based violence.
The Bill presents an opportunity for the public to mobilise and educate the boy child and the girl child on the one hand, and patriarchy on the other hand, that the place of the girl child and that of the woman is everywhere, including in leadership of corporate society, political parties and academia. The boy child must not be socialised into believing that he has a right over a woman's body. People's sexual orientation also cannot be a basis for their vilification and humiliation.
Deputy Speaker, 32 years after they were uttered, the words of the late former ANC President, Oliver Tambo, still ring true. He said:
The mobilisation of women is the task, not only of women alone, or of men alone, but of all of us, men and women alike, comrades in struggle.
I'm referring to the hon members on my right side.
Hon members, the above-mentioned provision on public education on prohibited practices, including gender-based violence, will also enable the enforcement of previously adopted legislation on measures to eliminate gender-based violence. In this regard the Bill is addressing genuine concerns that were expressed by advocacy groups that have the genuine interests of women, lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgender people at heart.
These concerns relate to their observation that, despite the good legislation that has been championed and initiated by the ANC on gender equality and combat against gender-based violence, there are still huge gaps in implementation. The ANC government has heard these concerns and through this Bill we have addressed them.
Hon Deputy Speaker and hon members, the Bill moves the struggle for the economic emancipation of women forward. The ANC-led government acknowledges the women who are occupying strategic positions in government and the public sector, and specifically those from previously disadvantaged communities, but this is not enough. Hence, clause 10 on economic empowerment provides that -
Despite any other law, targets for women in all laws and policies on economic empowerment shall be at least 50%.
This opens the way for the enforcement of the equality principle of the Constitution, namely section 9(2), by those private businesses and similar public institutions which regard executive positions and ownership stakes as the exclusive preserve of white men. Of course, hon members, the DA is opposed to this provision because it touches business interests, their holy cow. The DA's strategy is all too familiar by now. They raise points of objection to a piece of legislation and they will never concede to the sincere attempts by the ANC and the progressive opposition to engage on and address the objections. Only the DA can persuade the DA to admit to a rational and persuasive view of the ANC. So, once they disagree, that is it. For them it is okay, because they don't represent the majority view. [Applause.]
Of course, we know that this is a thinly veiled ploy to protect the interests of big business. They cannot accept that the private sector should be held accountable for the serious lack of strategies and plans for women's empowerment, in particular those from previously disadvantaged backgrounds.
The DA raised objections which relate to what is perceived to be a duplication of the mandate of the Commission for Gender Equality, CGE, particularly as it relates to monitoring, evaluation and public education. The ANC has responded to these objections at every turn, stating that the mere reference to monitoring and evaluation, for instance, does not in itself suggest duplication. Monitoring and evaluation by the CGE is different to the overall oversight monitoring and evaluation role of the department. The ANC has also repeatedly made the point that Cabinet would not have approved this Bill if the perception of the duplication of mandates were justified. [Applause.]
Hon members, the DA also argued that the Bill lacks strong enforcement provisions. One asks oneself the question: What is it that they are doing as Members of Parliament? As a reminder, hon Lamoela, your task is to conduct oversight over this department. It is funny that the DA is speaking the very same language as those people who have made submissions in our portfolio committee, and this leaves us with a question mark.
We took them seriously and, forgetting for a while that they merely play games with important national issues, we made amendments and included strong enforcement. Thus, in clause 17 of the Bill we inserted a subsection which states:
A designated private body who fails to comply with the relevant provisions of this Act, including failure to comply with a request by the Minister in terms of section 15(2) or a recommendation by the Minister in terms of section 16(b), commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding 10% of the total annual turnover of the designated private body. And further:
A director or chief executive officer of a designated private body, as the case may be, fined in terms of paragraph (a) is liable on conviction of that designated private body to imprisonment for a period not exceeding five years.
Of course, the DA is opposed to these enforcement measures. Listen to what they say:
... the sanctions in the Bill are too harsh and a Bill of this nature should rather incentivise behaviour in order to facilitate compliance.
You see, now they have changed their tactics. That's what happens with the DA when the ANC makes the private sector accountable to the people of South Africa.
Hon members, there have been other objections to which the ANC has responded in detail, but what they are doing is just scoring cheap political points. We have been so reasonable that we have accommodated them even after their raising petty issues that will not assist us in moving South Africa forward.
In conclusion, the history of the struggle for a democratic, nonracial and nonsexist South Africa would be incomplete without mentioning the names of Charlotte Maxeke, Lillian Ngoyi, Helen Joseph and Sophia de Bruyn - and there were many other women too numerous to mention - who contributed immensely, sometimes by paying the ultimate price, to bringing about the freedom that we all enjoy. We must never forget our heroes and heroines. They have bequeathed to us the heritage of the democracy that we are enjoying. Let us remember them on 7 May 2014.
The ANC will support this Bill. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, women make up more than 50% of the population of this country. It is logical then that they should, at the minimum, hold 50% of the positions in the public and private sector. Sadly enough, this is not the case.
I want to applaud the ANC for prioritising women's empowerment by being the only party that adheres to a gender policy of 50%/50% representation of women to men. This is unlike the DA, which has packed a provincial cabinet with white males. They must not play to the gallery and come and blow hot air here ... [Interjections.]
Deputy Speaker, I would like to know whether the hon sweeper of the ANC will take a question.
Hon Bhoola, will you take a question?
Madam Deputy Speaker, I remain a respected member of the MF, and I will take a question from the lost and found ID at the end. [Applause.]
Order! The hon member Mr McGluwa must sit down, please.
They must not come and play to the gallery and blow hot air about inequality. That is hypocritical.
Apartheid activist, Valliamma Munuswami Mudliar, died in prison at the age of 16, refusing to bow down to oppression and lose her self-respect.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish to assure the ID that when the MF doubles its representation on 7 May, it will adhere to the 50%/50% policy.
While substantial progress has been made since apartheid, more needs to be done to ensure that we advance the principles of equality. Currently only 28% of top positions are held by women, and 63% of rural women remain unemployed. These are the staggering statistics, and indeed the MF treasures the hope that this Bill will address the inequality.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to know if the hon member will take a question. Why did he try to take Mrs Rajbansi's job if he saw the importance of women's empowerment?
Order! The hon Bhoola should continue.
The DA remains intimidated. [Laughter.]
We applaud the foresight illustrated by the Minister, because transformation is not only about numbers. We must not simply parachute women into senior management positions. Attitudes, policies and perceptions need to be changed from the grass roots up, so that this Bill benefits all South African women, not just the elite.
The focus on the education and health sectors is crucial. President Zuma alluded to the fact that education is a ladder out of poverty, and the MF agrees. The MF welcomes the emphasis placed on the high dropout rate of teenage mothers and their re-entry into the education fraternity. I am reminded here of the old saying, "If you educate a woman, you educate a nation."
The additional focus on women's health is crucial. However, we register a concern about the phrase in clause 5(1), "within its available resources". What is meant by "available resources"? Does this mean that if a health facility in a rural area does not have the available resources, it is not incumbent upon them to obey this law? We request that amendments be made to make it mandatory, while simultaneously synchronising all levels of government to ensure that we develop and implement a model for delivering women's health in rural areas.
We also welcome the inclusion of public education on gender-based violence. Not a single day passes without news of rapes and other crimes against women. We must identify clear strategies that are relevant to communities, so that we can end the scourge of violence.
The focus placed on the economic empowerment of women with disabilities is commendable. However, right here in the Western Cape the DA-led government offers the Dial-a-Ride service. The waiting list to access this service is two years. Is this the constitutionality and feasibility that you came here and talked about today? Why does the DA selectively choose to undermine legislation promulgated at national level? The answer is very simple. What a sad story! They have no empathy to address the concerns of the suffering masses.
The MF requests that it be made compulsory for all such bodies, public and private, including the DA, to submit their plans and measures to the Ministry. The phrase, "may ... require", is inappropriate and the MF calls for it to be mandatory.
Hon member, your time is up now.
Let us always be reminded that women are the backbone of society. Indeed, Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma is a great advantage for the country.
Hon member, your time is up.
All the women of the world remember "MF". Not only does it mean "magnificent females", but it also means ...
Hon member, your time is up.
... "must fight" against poverty and for equality.
I thank you. The MF supports the Bill. [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members and guests, you are welcome. The DA strongly supports the empowerment of women, but we believe that this Bill will not bring any change to the lives of millions of women who are unemployed and bearing the brunt of poverty day in and day out.
This Bill is another sad story of more talk and promises, and less action by the government. The Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill, the Wege Bill, does very little for rural women; women with disabilities; women who earn money through informal trading; women exposed to violence; women who are failed by the justice system; sex workers; and lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex, LGBTI, persons. The list is very long.
There has been talk of other Bills in the pipeline, such as the Muslim Marriages Bill, the sex work industry Bill and the hate crimes Bill, but to date none of them has reached this House. Instead, the ANC has pursued the Traditional Courts Bill which violates the basic rights of, particularly, rural women. This is another indication that this government is not truly interested in real women's empowerment.
The Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill only serves women who are already employed, empowered and protected against discrimination by existing legislation. The Bill will have little or no impact on the majority of the poor and suffering women in our country.
True empowerment is through the provision of quality education to the girl child. The department's priority should be to support women by monitoring service delivery and ensuring that women have access to basic services, government resources and safety mechanisms. Hon Ramodibe, empowering a woman starts at community level, not in the boardroom.
This department has failed dismally. It could not even monitor the implementation of existing laws and policies relating to women's empowerment. How can we expect them to deliver on this massive and costly Bill?
It is indeed sad that 20 years into our democracy the majority of women in our country are still suffering. The failure of this department is also apparent in the continued high levels of sexual violence against women, children and sexual minorities. Bear in mind that the ANC-led government chose not to condemn the recently passed homophobic law in Uganda, which allows for repeat homosexual offenders to be jailed for life. What message does this send to the LGBTI persons in South Africa? Is this a government serious about gender equality and ending gender-based violence? No way.
Deputy Speaker, the DA does not support this Bill. Instead, we believe that the government should undertake a comprehensive audit of the impact of existing laws relating to women's empowerment before introducing another redundant law that will not be implemented or address key issues; a law that might deter investors and will result in another Fluxmans' report situation. Cadre and quota employment systems without merit are a disaster; hence the problem we are having.
Hon Bhoola, you spent almost two years trying to take a woman out of her job. I was very shocked to see you standing here and saying the things you said about the DA.
Empowering a woman is something that is critical and very sensitive. It is not something that needs a piece of legislation that will not be implemented. We have so much that has not been audited in terms of the outcomes, impact and behavioural changes in respect of women and men at ground level.
It all starts with education; not a piece of legislation for electioneering for the ANC that is not going to be implemented. Without education, quality health, and real women's and gender equality, there will be no women's empowerment. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Hon Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, distinguished guests in the gallery, and ladies and gentlemen, over the past 20 years the ANC-led government has been hard at work creating legislation to empower and develop the women and girl children of South Africa. I stand here at this podium to relate one of the good stories of the ANC, that of the continuous protection and promotion of gender equality through pieces of legislation. Today in this House the progressive realisation of a minimum of 50% representation and the active participation of women in positions of decision-making and structures such as boards has been realised. This has been done through the creation of the Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill as a means to propel South Africa forward by upholding the strategic objectives of the ANC-led government of nonsexism, nonracialism, unity and democracy.
Through this Bill the aspirations of our own Ntate Nelson Mandela will be realised. He once said:
Conditions of women of this country must be radically changed through empowerment to enable them to participate meaningfully in all aspects of life as equals with other members of the society.
Today I want to tell the whole world the shameful story of the DA. This party does not agree with equal representation of women. South Africans, listen to what the DA says on clause 9(1), which compels private business to ensure a minimum of 50% representation of women. The DA says the 50% requirement contained in the Bill amounts to a top-down manipulation to achieve so-called equality. Oh, what a shameful statement! Is that not so, hon Lamoela?
No, not at all!
They say the 50% requirement does not address the root cause of inequality in South Africa. One wonders why Madam Zille romantically kissed Madam Agang. [Laughter.] It is that they were staging an act of promoting gender equality according to their understanding of it. [Interjections.] This is a challenge to us as the ANC to publicly educate, teach, and continue to teach, the DA on what the principle of 50% stands for. It stands for the active participation of women in decision-making bodies, not romantic kisses on television. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The hon Lamoela questioned the constitutionality and feasibility of the Bill. You suggest that the Bill overrides the Commission for Gender Equality's mandate and duplicates it. [Interjections.] You also say that 37 of the 41 submissions emphasised issues of duplication; that the legislation which has already been adopted has not been implemented, and this includes that on domestic violence; and that this Bill benefits the elite and the wealthy. [Interjections.] HON MEMBERS: How? How?
Hon Lamoela, what should happen to change the lives of women? [Interjections.] All of this has nothing to do with the Bill. Deal with this by highlighting ... [Interjections.] This has nothing to do with the Bill. [Interjections.] This Bill is talking about the empowerment and development of women. You bring whatever you can think of and say it in connection with the Bill. [Interjections.] Go and read the objectives of the Bill so that you can understand the Bill. [Interjections.]
Order, hon members, please! Order!
Hon Mosimane, gender equality is relegated to the backburner by all the political parties. You then imply that the application of the 50%/50% principle in the political parties ... [Interjections.]
Hon Lamoela, the Bill empowers the Minister to designate bodies and to recommend what steps should be taken to better enable women's empowerment and gender equality. Predictably, the DA is opposed to the powers given to the Minister - this from the same DA that went around publicly claiming that the Bill did not give the Minister any power to intervene to enhance the realisation of the goal of gender equality. Now they say that the discretion afforded to the Minister to designate bodies and to recommend what steps to take is too wide.
What we are dealing with here is a party that knows that it has opposed significant legislation that is aimed at improving women's lives. They know that they have no chance to designate a Minister because they will be walloped on 7 May 2014.
This pattern from the DA is all too familiar. They first rejected the Bill in our committee on the basis that it lacked provision for enforcement. However, when the ANC and the other reasonable and patriotic opposition parties addressed this genuine concern, the DA then changed its tune and said that the sanctions in the Bill were too harsh and a Bill of this nature should rather incentivise behaviour in order to facilitate compliance. What utter rubbish!
We know why the DA is opposed to this Bill. This Bill touches the interests of big capital by enforcing compliance for women's empowerment and gender equality. [Interjections.] The DA opposes for the sake of opposing. [Interjections.]
Ah, rubbish!
Hon Lamoela, as a Member of Parliament I wonder what you educate your constituency with. What you say is negative. What you touch is negative. What you talk about is out of tune. What you talked about is outside of this Bill.
Hon Tlake ...
Go and read carefully ...
Hon Tlake, can you just stop for a moment? I heard a member on the other side saying, "Rubbish".
Yes, it's Lamoela. [Interjections.]
Did I hear correctly?
Yes, you did.
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
Did I hear correctly - a member saying, "Rubbish"? [Interjections.]
It's hon Lamoela.
Can you withdraw that? [Interjections.] Can you withdraw that? [Interjections.]
I withdraw it.
Thank you, hon member. Continue, hon Tlake.
Hon Lamoela, what you say is negative. What you touch is negative. What you talk about is outside of this Bill. Go and read carefully what the objectives of this Bill are. Do not bring your personal beliefs here. [Interjections.]
We are not making this up. As South Africans we are known for our good performance on the protection and promotion of gender equality. It is evident both in international and regional indices, as other hon members have said. Indeed, we acknowledge challenges of unemployment, poverty and inequality, but there is no denying the fact that South Africa is a better place today than it was under the ancestors of the DA. Is it not so, hon Lamoela? [Interjections.]
The aims and objectives of the hon Van der Merwe suggest that current legislation is not being implemented. You say women are grossly underrepresented. You say that the Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill does not make any provision for human resources and related capacity. You say it does not address the poor quality of young women. Yet, nowhere has the IFP made a submission along this line. I think, considering what you have said, Van der Merwe, you must tell us what the IFP says, because today in this august House we are making it clear to the public that the ANC promotes and protects the women of South Africa.
You cannot come and just talk without content. When you made a submission in the committee, you said you did not have any problem with the Bill. Today, however, because you are standing in front of your alliance partner, the DA, you come and make a submission which differs from that submitted in the committee.
Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: What the member is saying is not correct. In fact, throughout the committee process I made submissions and I articulated our concerns. So, what she is now saying is not the truth.
No, no, no. Hon member, that is not a point of order. You can clarify that later. Please sit down.
The hon Mulder of the FF Plus does not support the Bill. He says this Bill is discriminatory. We expect this from the right wing. They are like their new-found allies in the form of the DA. They even fail to appreciate the need for affirmative action, which is an example of fair discrimination. [Interjections.]
You suggest that women are equal to men, and imply that there is no need for an intervention. This is scandalous! It is based on an ideology which has found no way to protect white privileges. It is a new-found strategy to maintain the status quo. It says, "Do not interfere with the current order" - even though they know that the status quo is a creation of their ancestors in the form of the apartheid fathers. [Interjections.]
Continue, hon member - don't listen to them.
Gone are the days when it was said that the place of the women of South Africa was in the kitchen!
Hon Lamoela, we know, because you told us, that you are at the exit point. Next term you will not be coming back. You are going to open an NGO. That is why you are lamenting the NGOs and their funding. [Interjections.]
Deputy Speaker ...
We once told you in a meeting, hon Lamoela, ...
Deputy Speaker ...
... that all the NGOs must be audited.
Is it a point of order?
A question. [Interjections.]
Is it a point of order?
Can I please ask the member a question? [Interjections.]
Hon member, are you prepared to take a question?
I am not prepared to take a question because I have ... [Interjections.]
Continue, hon member. Hon Lamoela, sit down. Continue, hon member.
We know that you are going to open an NGO and that you are lamenting our putting teeth into this Bill to give women the same positions as men. [Interjections.] You are fearing the "unfair".
The hon Dudley called for a greater commitment to the implementation of existing legislation. All the submissions were not in favour of the Bill, including those of business and political parties. However, these must not be permanent objections, even where it was suggested that the amendments we effected are inadequate. Thank you. [Time expired.]
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Hon Deputy Speaker, let me thank all the members who supported the Bill, including Cope and the MF.
I want to say to the ACDP, you did not attend portfolio committee meetings; you came only once. It is also not true that all submissions did not support the Bill. There are women there who were here ...
... oMam' uMagubane abafike bazikhulumela ngesiZulu bathi bayayifuna le mithetho. [... like Mrs Ngubane who stated in isiZulu that they supported the Bill.]
We have also ensured - and what you said is true - that we incorporate the concerns of public hearings in the Bill.
The DA's delaying tactics has failed to stall this Bill. The DA has no policy on women empowerment and gender equality other than a cheap black woman presidential candidate strategy to come and front for the DA.
Hon Lamoela must tell the women of South Africa that the DA is not committed to women's empowerment, that their commitment is only to big business, ensuring that the rich become richer and poor women become poorer. Fighting for big capital is the priority of the DA, especially for those in London and the USA who can help them buy a black president.
Deputy Speaker, I consulted the Commission for Gender Equality extensively on this Bill. We had several meetings. I furthermore had meetings on the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act with the Deputy Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development, John Jeffery. In our meetings with the Minister of Trade and Industry we discussed employment and broad-based black economic empowerment - not Zanele Magwaza- Msibi. We also discussed employment equity with Minister Oliphant. There is no duplication here.
The IFP never supported women, hon Van der Merwe, and I told you that a long time ago. Where is Zanele Magwaza-Msibi? Uyabashaya manje emavotini. Usazobashaya ngomhla ziyi-7 kuNhlaba. [Her party is now enjoying strong support. She is going to do better than them in the elections on 7 May.]
FF Plus, you have never had a woman since 1994. Where are your women? [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: This is the third time that the Minister has given me an answer about Zanele Magwaza- Msibi. [Interjections.]
Hon Van der Merwe! Hon Van der Merwe ...
We gave ...
Hon Van der Merwe, that is not a point of order. The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Sit down! The FF Plus and the IFP are dying dinosaurs in the South African political space.
UNkosazana Zuma, u-Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi, kanye noPhumzile Mlambo- Ngcuka manje sebephethe umhlaba, baphekwe la nguKhongolose. [Nkosazana Zuma, Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi and Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka now hold very high positions in international organisations. They were mentored right here by the ANC.]
Xa ndiza kuhlala phantsi ndibuyele kumama uMaxeke owathi ... [Before I take a seat, let me come back to Mama Maxeke who said ...]
... in the Social Conditions Of African Women And Girls, "We will know that we have succeeded". [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Speaker ...
Is that a point of order?
Yes. The idea is that we debate. I have asked the Minister a pertinent question with regard to the ANC and I would really appreciate it if she would answer my question.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: The ANC has 50% women. It is a 50%/50% representation on all of its lists. They always had 50%. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, may I just ...
No. Hon Mulder, I am not going to allow that. Please sit down. I am not going to allow it. Hon Mpontshane, is that a point of order?
Hon Deputy Speaker ...
Yebo, Somlomo bengicela ukubuza ukuthi umhlonishwa angawuthatha ... [Yes, Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask if the hon Minister would take ...]
Ucela ukubuza ukuba ungawuthatha na umbuzo? [Minister, would like to find out if you will take a question.]
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Anginaso isikhathi omama bayaphuthuma, bafuna inkululeko lapha. [I do not have time; women are in a hurry to attain their freedom.] [Applause.]
Yebo Somlomo umbuzo nje omncane. [Yes, Deputy Speaker, it is just a short question.]
Hon Deputy Speaker!
Uthi akakazuwuthatha. [She says no.] [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Speaker!
Who is saying, "Hon Deputy Speaker" when there is somebody on the floor? Can't you just wait for that member to finish? There is somebody who is using a microphone and keeps saying, "Hon Deputy Speaker!" [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, I have a point of order.
Angizwanga. [I did not hear.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, I am rising on a point of order.
No, but there is somebody on the floor. Can you please wait? Continue, hon Mpontshane.
Angizwanga Somlomo ukuthi angawuthatha yini umbuzo. [I did not hear, Deputy Speaker, if she said she could take the question.]
Uthe akanakuwuthatha. [She said she can't.]
Ngiyabonga. Bengingazwanga Somlomo, angesabi kodwa ukuthatha umbuzo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.
[Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Thank you. I had not heard, Deputy Speaker, but she should not be afraid to do so.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Umama uMaxeke ngowe-1930 ... [In 1930 Mrs Maxeke ...]
Hon Minister, can you please sit down? There are lots of people who have points of orders. Hon Lamoela, is it a point of order?
Why is the ANCWL asking for a male to be president? I feel that is not right for women to be ... [Interjections.]
Hon Lamoela, that is not a point of order. Hon Tobias? [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, I need to understand this from you. Is it honourable for a Member of Parliament to point a finger at a Minister in the very patronising way that the hon member of the FF Plus is doing now?
It is not at all. Continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Mrs Maxeke said in 1930 that we will know that we have succeeded -
... to lift women and children up in the social life ... ... of the African when even men benefit ...
... and thus the whole community, both White and Black ... -
... benefit.
Sizonikhulula mhlonishwa More, nani malungu ahloniphekile kanye ne-Freedom Front. [It looks like we will have to ask you to leave, hon More, hon members and the Freedom Front.]
The women of South Africa are here to listen and witness this memorable day in Parliament when we deliberate on this piece of legislation that will truly empower them. The road behind has been long, but when we look back, despite the many challenges, the evidence that South Africa has a good story to tell in empowering women is overwhelming. [Applause.] This confirms that South Africa is a better place today to live in than it has ever been.
In conclusion, to the women of South Africa I say, go out there and vote for the party that has your interests at heart. Go out there and vote for the party that has a track record of women's empowerment and gender equality ...
Deputy Speaker, may I address you on a point of order?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: ... a legacy of more than 100 years of women's struggles, a party that has stood ... [Interjections.]
Deputy Speaker, may I address you on a point of order?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: ... the test of time.
Order! Hon Minister, there is a point of order.
Deputy Speaker, the time allocated to the Minister was three minutes. There is consensus that there is no transfer of time, and the Minister has now been speaking for 4,5 minutes.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: It is injury time.
Thank you very much, hon member. Hon Minister, your time is up. You were about to conclude. Have you finished now?
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Yes.
Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF WOMEN, CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES: Go out and vote for the ANC. Malibongwe! [Let it be praised!] [Applause.]
Thank you very much. That concludes the debate. Hon Kalyan and hon Lamoela, I hope you noticed that I gave the Minister more than one minute. When I am presiding and somebody is about to conclude, there is not a single member who speaks from that podium that I do not consider and I don't cut them short. I have not done it only for the Minister. Hon Lamoela got more than one minute, so I hope everybody noticed.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be read a second time. Division demanded.
During division:
Madam Deputy Speaker, can I please address you on a point of order?
Yes.
Firstly, it is again happening that the DA has called for a division, but then they are literally taking their members out of the House and even instructing the ones who have been here to go.
Secondly, Deputy Speaker, I would like to investigate the hon Greyling, who came in here in the middle of the ringing of the bells, called one member, a lady from the opposition, to go out, and they have actually left the House.
Now this is tantamount to filibustering, and it is not in accordance with our democracy or with the intention of calling for a division, or how this Parliament is run. It is reckless and we call upon you to make a ruling on this matter. Otherwise we are running the risk of discrediting this Parliament, for which thousands of our people died so that we could have this democracy and this Parliament. Thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, may I have the right to respond to that comment? The DA has the right to protest against bad legislation. It is our democratic right. [Interjections.]
I did not say you must respond. [Interjections.] Hon Minister, I note that. I will consider it and make a ruling later. I would like to remind members that they may only ... [Interjections.]
Deputy Speaker, of course the DA, like any other party in Parliament, has the right to agree or disagree with legislation. The way in which we do it in Parliament is to vote for or against the legislation, or abstain.
Regarding the behaviour of the DA and the response that we have just had, again, I would like you to make a ruling on the stance that this particular party is taking on this matter. They are really calling into disrepute, not us, but themselves and Parliament. As the hon Nzimande said, this is something that was fought and died for by millions and millions of South Africans. [Interjections.]
May I know what point of order he is addressing you on, Deputy Speaker? [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Order, hon members! I have noted the point of order put, which is very serious, and I said I would make a ruling on that. I know it is not the first time that it has happened. I will make a ruling on that. Can we now proceed with what is in front of us, the business of voting on the Bill?
The House divided:
AYES - 174: Adams, P E; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Bothman, S G; Burgess, C V; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Chili, D O; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlakude, D E; Dlodlo, A; Dlomo, B J; Dlulane, B N; Dube, M C; Duma, N M; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gina, N; Gololo, C L; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Holomisa, S P; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Line-Hendriks, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Magagula, V V; Magubane, E; Magwanishe, G; Mahomed, F; Makasi, X C; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makwetla, SP; Malale, M I; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Mandela, Z M D; Mangena, M S; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashatile, S P; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Mathale, C C; Mathebe, D H; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mdakane, M R; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Moepeng, J K; Mohai, S J; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motsepe, R M; Motsoaledi, P A; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndlazi, A Z; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngubeni-Maluleka, J P; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nonkonyana, M; November, N T; Nxumalo, M D; Nyalungu, R E; Nyekemba, E; Nzimande, B E; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Peters, E D; Maduna, P; Phaliso, M N; Pilane-Majake, M C C; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Radebe, G S; Radebe, B A; Ramodibe, D M; Saal, G; Schneemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Sekgobela, P S; Selau, G J; September, C C; Sibiya, D; Sindane, G S; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Sogoni, E M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tobias, T V; Tseke, G K; Tshabalala, J; Van Wyk, A; Wayile, Z G; Williams-De Bruyn, S T; Xaba, P P; Xasa, T; Ximbi, D L; Xingwana, L M.
NOES - 6: Farrow, S B; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Lamoela, H; More, E; Waters, M.
ABSTAIN - 9: Berend, S R; Ferguson, B D; Kilian, J D; Kwankwa, N L; Mackenzie, G P D; Mosimane, C K K; Ntapane, S Z; Ramatlakane, L; Van der Merwe, L L.
Order! As a result of hon members' leaving the House, there is a total of 210 members who did not vote, while 189 did vote. This means that we will have to postpone the decision on this Bill, because a majority of 201 members is needed in the National Assembly for a vote to be taken on a Bill, as required by Rule 25(2)(a). This is why there was a walkout, I'm sure. We will postpone the decision on the Bill to this afternoon.