Mr Chairman, hon members of this House, this is a Bill which I think made history here, because it was the first private member's Bill to be treated in a different manner. Of course, we accorded it that interest and focus ensuring, in fact, that all the stakeholders were contacted. In fact, we leaned so far backwards to ensure that it was accorded the same, if not better, treatment of process and procedure than other Bills brought to Parliament from a committee or a Minister. Despite the hon Oriani-Ambrosini being an hour late due to forgetting that his Bill was due to be before the committee after the two weeks' notice and reminders, we nevertheless accorded him the time to brief us.
On 31 January this year, he was of course profusely grateful on the matter. We treated him and the Bill with all the processes and procedures that would be demanded of a portfolio committee. You may now ask why it took us so long to bring it here. Well, the ANC is, of course, a caring government. [Laughter.] It is a very caring government, and that is an acknowledgement from the hon Oriani-Ambrosini. That is why I am saying that.
When he did not return for the final process one day, we heard that he had flu. We rescheduled the Bill and learnt that he was in hospital. We rescheduled it when we learnt that he was coming out of hospital, but it was unfortunate that only in a letter to me, I learnt from him that his was a terminal illness. And I am sure the House and everyone else wished him well during this particular part of his life.
Having said that, the main issues within the Bill, which were later rejected by the committee, were that there were two clauses and, on his own acknowledgment, the first clause was not the clause that needed to be focused on. In fact, he conceded that he would give way on that one. A number of stakeholders pointed out that they had challenges. I am not talking about, if you like, those within the fraternity that are card- carrying members of the ANC, but the financial community, the business community and many others.
He also said that the second one, the suspension of interest - which, incidentally, already existed and that some credit providers were already offering - would, in fact, lead to prolonged debt review. So, you would suspend the interest and have the prolonged debt review, but in the end, after five years, you would still have to pay it. You were merely putting off that final day. Another is that the relationship and the point made in terms of the accumulation of interest, credit fees and charges beyond the balance of the unpaid debt is already in the National Credit Act, Act 34 of 2005.
Having said that, in 2010, the committee had communicated with the Minister with the concern that the National Credit Act was not where we wanted it to be and that the National Credit Regulator needed to be reviewed, and this Act amended, so that we could seriously tackle some of the flaws. This has been done. Yes, it was done this year. The Act is now here, and we are going to be dealing with it.
May I add that it was unanimous in the committee, although people in this House will say it was not. We do not want to do it piecemeal; we want a comprehensive piece of legislation that will deal effectively with a very serious issues, and not something that would just single out one point which would address ... [Interjections.] No! May I say that the ANC, amongst others, totally supports the refusal or the rejection of the private member's Bill. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
There was no debate.
The Chief Whip of the Majority Party: chairperson, I move:
That the Report be adopted.
Declarations of vote:
House Chairperson, this private member's Bill is PMB 1 - 2012, and that stands as a testament to the invaluable efforts of hon Oriani-Ambosini to assert the constitutional rights of all members to introduce legislation in this House and to have that legislation properly and seriously considered. Our thoughts continue to be with the hon Oriani- Ambrosini in the struggle he is currently waging.
In the past, private members' Bills were cut off at the pass by an intransigent ANC majority not interested in seeing any good ideas emanating from outside its own ranks. Whenever a private member's Bill was too obviously sensible and positive that it could not be simply blocked, the argument was usually made that similar and more comprehensive legislation was imminent from the executive and so, therefore, we should rather wait for that legislation. Sometimes it could be years before that legislation would come to the House, as with the National Lotteries legislation, which the DA proposed in 2009 and which came to this House earlier this year.
However, the courts have now underscored the constitutional principle that all members can and should influence a legislative agenda at any time they like and irrespective of what other legislation is being prepared elsewhere in the government; hence, this very first private member's bill submitted by the hon Oriani- Ambrosini under the new Rules.
At the time that this Bill was submitted, there was no comprehensive amendment to the National Credit Act on the table from the Department of Trade and Industry. Indeed, the department told us in the committee that such legislation would still take several months before they could present it. Therefore, it is a victory for opposition oversight that after seeing this Bill, the department was able to produce a broader amending Bill in a matter of weeks, not months.
However, the argument must never be used, as it was done by the ANC in this committee and in the case of this Bill, that we should not proceed with piecemeal improvements to legislation because comprehensive legislation from the executive is imminent. This was the argument that was used to block private members' Bills under the old Rules, and it seems that it is being used anew to block private members' Bills under the new Rules. We will not stand for that. The fact is that piecemeal improvements to legislation are perfectly acceptable, and we do not need to have comprehensive legislation from the executive before this House can move. Thank you. [Applause.]
House Chairperson, hon Deputy President and hon members, this report marks a huge missed opportunity for our Parliament in our democracy. After two years of intense litigation, the hon Mario Oriani- Ambrosini regained for all of us our constitutional right to introduce legislation. At the court, the legislation was the very Bill which this report rejects as being undesirable, a too simple Bill with too simple provisions, which the report itself indicates to be in fact desirable.
The argument for rejecting the Bill is that of waiting for government to propose to Parliament a comprehensive overhaul of the principal Act, which will incorporate the amendments proposed by the hon Mario Oriani-Ambrosini. The report explicitly states that the Minister will introduce such Bill by the end of this year and makes this the sole reason for rejecting Ambrosini's Bill.
This is tantamount to Parliament rejecting its own power of legislative initiative. We have missed the opportunity to fix a few aspects of the principal Act, of which all submissions received by the committee indicated that it had to be fixed. Throughout the deliberations in the committee, it was very clear that the hon Ambrosini's Bill was desirable, necessary and timely. Yet, today, we are called upon to resolve that it is undesirable because we believe that the executive should do the work of Parliament.
In what was a historic occasion, Parliament relinquished the opportunity to do the job it is called upon to perform by the Constitution, which is that of legislating. Today, we are making the point that this Parliament is not willing or competent or capable of fixing problems with legislation, unless it receives the green light to do so from the executive.
The Ambrosini Bill should have been an opportunity to reverse the decades of parliamentary impotence, intolerance and subordination to assert the centrality and primacy of Parliament in lawmaking. We have lost this opportunity because the ANC has yet again given proof that it does not understand parliamentary democracy, and will not allow Members of this Parliament to bring democracy to life. Instead, it wishes Members of this Parliament to wait for the dictates of their leaders, Cabinet and party structures, which keep our democracy at the stage of a poor form of exercise, far removed from what our Constitution has envisaged.
On that note, I think I speak for everybody when I once again wish the hon Ambrosini a speedy recovery, and we pray that the good Lord will indeed grant him that. [Interjections.] I am sure that the hon Minister Molewa, as she howls, also agrees.
Chairperson, you know the point has been made about the groundbreaking nature of this private member's Bill. One thing that we have learnt in this first Bill that is processed is that people at the Table, the committee and the legal advisors of Parliament are all on a learning curve. I think it is to their credit that they have enabled this first Bill to reach its final conclusion.
The other points around the Bill regarding the new National Credit Act that has come through have all been made by colleagues in previous speeches. However, what I think one must recall is that after Dr Mario Oriani- Ambrosini overslept or missed his meeting for one hour he was so embarrassed that he not only apologised but he offered all the members of the committee a lunch at the Mount Nelson Hotel as his penance. I then said that, I thought he should use his Cadillac to drive the chairlady of the Portfolio Committee of Trade and Industry to the lunch. I must say, as a good communist, she looked very comfortable in that Cadillac. [Laughter.] So, we had that interesting human side before us.
However, we have two other private members' Bills, one of which has also gone through and the one that the hon James Selfe proposed on the Electoral Amendment Act. Of course, there is a very important Bill coming from the hon James on indigenous knowledge and intellectual property - a sui generis Bill. Then we will have dealt with three private members' Bills. However, I do believe that this has been an important Bill. Our whole parliamentary system owes a debt of gratitude to Dr Oriani-Ambrosini for this precedent.
Chairperson, may I address you on a point of order?
What is your point of order, hon member?
My point of order is the uncharitable comment made by Minister Molewa in which, when the member from the IFP wished the hon Ambrosini recovery, hon Molewa said he should not recover. I think that we should all maintain decorum and be charitable towards each other in this House. [Interjections.]
Hon member, that is not a point of order. However, we will request all the hon members to maintain the decorum of the House. Hon member, you may proceed. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
Chairperson, Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, members of the executive and members of this august House, the ANC joins all the people of South Africa in wishing the hon Oriani-Ambrosini a speedy recovery from his health challenges. [Interjections.] That is the position of the ANC. That is why the chairperson also wished him a speedy recovery.
The National Credit Act is the best shield to protect the vulnerable consumers of South Africa against the reckless lenders who are out there in the country. That is why, during the financial meltdown of 2008 to 2010, all the countries of the West had a high regard for this Act. That is why, as this august House, we must be very careful when dealing with tools which are respected internationally.
Yes, the hon Oriani-Ambrosini came with this amendment, which would not have effected a qualitative change to the lenders of this country. That is why the issue of the comprehensive Bill was necessary because the new Bill, which is now before Parliament, is going to cover all the aspects which were going to arise from it, and will go beyond that.
We know very well that one of the challenges of our creditors is that once their debtors have settled their bills, they will remain in the credit bureaus for five years. The forthcoming Bill is going to remove their names from the credit bureaus within seven days after they have settled their bills. That is the type of revolutionary amendment we wanted. [Applause.]
This Bill will also regulate the debt counsellors. We know that part of the weak implementation of this Bill was that the debt counsellors were able to dump the people they were counselling at their whim, but now the Bill is going to provide a framework for them to exit the system. So, this issue of a comprehensive approach is very critical.
This issue of a comprehensive approach of amending this Bill was not only coming from the ANC. All the financial institutions of this country were in support of that. That is why the Banking Association of SA rejected this Bill. That is why the Business Unit of SA, Busa, rejected the Bill in its current form and said that a more comprehensive Bill, which will have been negotiated even at Nedlac, would be the best way of moving forward. That is why I call upon all the members of this House to support the report of the portfolio committee. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, do not ...
I've noted you, hon member.
But, it must be recorded that I did object.
It is on the record, but you were a bit slow in responding.
Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Inkatha Freedom Party dissenting).
Report accordingly adopted.