Hon member, you had a point of order. What is your point of order?
Chairperson, I wanted to alert you that the member's time was up. She did run over her time, as you pointed out. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Order, hon members! We have very competent Table staff here in front us, who indicate to us when the time has expired. Let us allow them to do their work.
Chairperson, the DA noted a massive budget decrease for the Department of Public Works, from R7,8 billion in the 2012-13 financial year to R6,1 billion in the 2013-14 financial year. However, in the current 2013- 14 financial year, the Department of Public Works decreased the budget allocation for the Expanded Public Works Programme.
According to the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, the Expanded Public Works Programme funds increased from R429 million to R1,9 billion in the 2013-14 financial year. The department did not adequately use the EPWP budget. Millions of rands were not actually spent. The increment of funds for the EPWP came as a result of the state of the nation address, which placed them as a vehicle designed to address persistently high levels of unemployment.
The President highlighted the EPWP as a programme that would help to absorb young people. The EPWP is expected to produce 4,5 million job opportunities by the end of 2014. So far, the EPWP has created 2,6 million job opportunities since 2009. The programme must reach an additional 1,8 million in order to reach its target of 4,5 million job opportunities by 2014. The DA is asking if that is possible. Government has only created 2,6 million job opportunities in four years, but wants to tell the nation that it can create 1,8 million job opportunities in one year. The DA cautions that job opportunities are not actually real jobs.
The shifting of goalposts shows that the Department of Public Works admits that it was not going to meet its target. The new target of over 5 million job opportunities is also not going to be achieved. What happened to the labour-intensive jobs that we missed when we were doing our oversight?
The DA also questions whether EPWP jobs are sustainable and whether the people who participated in the EPWP can use the skills acquired to fend for themselves. The DA asks how many people who are graduates of the EPWP have created jobs for themselves and how many are employed by the private sector? [Interjections.] What is the target for the youth to be employed under the EPWP? We would like to know whether the department has changed ... [Interjections.]
Order, hon members!
We would like to know whether the department has changed temporary jobs to decent jobs when extending the target. What happened to municipalities that did not actually comply or utilise conditional grants? The DA is asking how government, through the EPWP, actually employs people.
Why is the EPWP always visible towards election time? Is the EPWP really making a meaningful impact on the unemployment rate? What skills do people really get from EPWP jobs? Can we confidently say that the EPWP changed the lives of the unemployed people forever? I believe the answer is a resounding no.
Go ya ka pego ya Statistics SA ya tshekatsheko ya ba?omi ya kotara ka kotara, tlhokego ya me?omo e namelet?e ka diperesente t?e 25,2. Se se ra gore batho ba 100 000 ba lobile me?omo. Taba ye e tli?a palo ya batho bao ba hlokago me?omo go dimilione t?e 4,6. DA e tla thekga mananeo kamoka ao a tlo go fa bahlaki me?omo ya mmakgonthe. E tla thekga t?welopele ya naga ya ekonomi yeo e golago go hlola me?omo. Rena ba DA re bona lenaneo la rena la kgolo ya diperesente t?e seswai e le lona leo le ka tli?ago diphetogo t?a nnete t?a motheo go fedi?a tlhokego ya me?omo le bodiidi. Re re mmu?o o swanet?e go lwant?ha bohloki, bodiidi le tlhokego ya me?omo ka go godi?a ekonomi le go fa batho ba go ba le bokgoni ma?eleng gore ba hlole me?omo.
DA e re thekgo ya ma?eleng ya baswa go t?wa go mmu?o e ka thu?a gore baswa ba hwet?e me?omo ya nnete yeo e tlo go ba fa bokgoni, tsebo le maitemogelo. DA e lemogile gore borame?omo ba nyaka ba?omi bao ba na go le bokgoni, tsebo le maitemogelo. Bona ba thwala batho bao ka tshepho ya gore ba tla ba thu?a dikgwebong, dikhamphaning - go dira mo?omo ka bokgwari le bokgoni.
DA e re lenaneo la mmu?o la me?omo le swanet?e go hlahla baswa gore ba be le tsebo, bokgoni le maitemogelo. Batho bao ba ?omilego go Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, ba swanet?e go kgona go itirela ge ba e t?wa lenaneong leo. EPWP e swanet?e go ba sediba sa tlhahlo go fa batho tsebo. Re re mmu?o ke mmu?o ka set?haba. Bjale EPWP a e hlole me?omo ya mmakgonthe; a e fedi?e tlhokego ya me?omo; ga re rate go kitimi?a dipalo mola set?haba se sa holege. Rena ba DA re rata go bona EPWP e thwala batho go ya ka tsela ya maleba. Re rata go bona EPWP e t?welapele le ge go se na dikgetho; e thu?a bahlaki ba Afrika Borwa e sa kgetholle go ya ka boleloko bja mokgatlo wa dipolitiki.
DA e re bahlaki bao ba sa ?omego, ke maikarabelo a mmu?o go ba thu?a le go ba fa thekgo ka dinako t?ohle. DA e tshwenywa ke mehuta ya me?omo yeo e fiwago bahlaki lenaneong la EPWP, go swana le go ba topi?a matlapa ge go dirwa tsela. Bao ba hwedit?ego dithentara ga ba na taba le go hlahla ba?omi ba bona - ba nyaka fela go ikhumi?a. Go na le dibaka t?eo mmu?o o ka di ?omi?ago go thwala bahloki; go swana le go tso?olo?a, go hlweki?a le go mpshafat?a dithoto t?a mmu?o. DA e tla thu?a ka go ba lent?u la bao ba hlokago ka dinako kamoka.
Re rata go bont?ha gore seo re se bonego ge re be re t?wet?e ka ntle, re ile ditekodi?i?ong - re hwedit?e e le gore ka nnete batho ba gaborena bao ba thwet?wego mo go EPWP, ga ba fiwe tlhahlo yeo e tsenelet?ego. Bao ba swerego me?omo ba tloge ba dira bonnete bja gore bao ba ?omago go EPWP ga ba humane bokgoni bja go t?wet?a maphelo a bona pele. Mmu?o wa ANC o re o beile pele lenaneo la EPWP eup?a ge re le lebelela ga lena le seo ba se bolelago mo go lona. [Nako e fedile.] Ke a leboga. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[According to Statistics SA's Quarterly Labour Force Survey, unemployment has increased by 25,2%. This means 100 000 people have lost their jobs. This brings the number of unemployed people to 4,6 million. The DA will support all the programmes that will create better jobs for the poor. We will support the development of a country that has a growing economy that allows job creation. As the DA, we see our programme that has grown by 8% as the one that will bring basic transformation in order to end unemployment and poverty. We are saying that the government must fight poverty and unemployment by improving the economy and providing finance to those who have the potential to create jobs.
The DA says that the youth financial support from the government can help them to get good jobs that will equip them with skills, knowledge and experience. The DA has realised that employers are in need of workers who have skills, knowledge and experience. They employ those people with the hope that they will assist them in their businesses or companies in order to do the work competently and skillfully.
The DA says that the government's jobs programme must guide the youth on how to obtain knowledge, skills and experience. People who participated in the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, must be independent when they finish the programme. The EPWP must be the fountain of guidance to give people the knowledge and the necessary skills. The government's success depends on the people. Let the EPWP now create better jobs and end unemployment. We do not want quantity while the people do not benefit. As the DA, we want to see the EPWP continuing to employ people through the right channels. We want to see EPWP continuing to employ people even if there are no elections, helping the South African poor without segregating them according to their political party affiliation.
The DA says that it is the responsibility of the government to always help and support the unemployed poor. The DA is concerned about the type of jobs that are given to the poor in the EPWP, such as picking up stones during road construction. Those who are awarded tenders do not care about supervising their employees. Their only concern is to enrich themselves. There are strategies that the government can use to employ the poor, like to restore, clean and renew government's properties. The DA will always be the voice of the poor.
We want to indicate what we observed during the oversight visits. We discovered that most of our people who are working in the EPWP are not given intensive training. Those who are holding senior positions are trying by all means to prevent those working in the EPWP from getting the skills to improve their lives. The ANC-led government has indicated that they have prioritised the EPWP but according to our observation they are not implementing what they are saying. I thank you. [Time expired.]]
Hon Chair, hon Minister, Mr Thulas Nxesi, hon Deputy Minister and other Deputy Ministers who are here, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the ANC policy document, Ready to Govern, of 1992, and the RDP of 1994 shaped the socioeconomic content of the programme of Public Works in the first decade of our democratic dispensation.
The policy perspective provided the framework that outlined our country's perspective on the trajectory that the Public Works programme should pursue. This spoke to the essence of the ANC's economic policy of creating a strong and dynamic economy that will be directed towards eliminating poverty and the extreme inequalities generated by apartheid; democratising the economy and creating employment opportunities for all South Africans; and initiating growth and development to improve the quality of life of all the people, especially the poor.
The Budget Vote of the Department of Public Works has to address priorities of stabilising leadership, working towards a clean audit, finalising the state's Immovable Asset Register, improving finance and the Supply Chain Management unit, addressing the challenges of the Property Management Trading Entity and improving human resource management.
The steps taken by the department to improve its financial controls are mostly welcomed. That will improve the financial performance of the department from a disclaimer to a clean audit. This will not be an event, however; it will be a process.
Infrastructure development is one of the job drivers identified by the National Growth Path framework. In 2011-12, the amount of R1 billion was budgeted for infrastructure development, but the department failed to spend the allocation. There was underspending of R425 million, which was a matter for concern, as infrastructure projects are the ones that create jobs and reduce poverty and unemployment. Through infrastructure development, people must be able to put bread on their tables. Therefore, no underspending will be tolerated on infrastructure development.
Further underspending was noticed on machinery and equipment - R3,9 million in the 2011-12 financial year. In 2010-11, the budget allocation of the department was R7 364 797 000. Unspent funds amounted to R749,714 million, which has increased by R18,593 million to R768,307 million of unspent funds in 2011-12, of the budget of R7 829 744 000. We do not expect any underspending while citizens are waiting for service delivery.
While we are not going to tolerate any underspending, we are also not going to tolerate overspending, as both are against the prescripts of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA. Overspending on the compensation of employees and goods and services must be minimised. The PFMA, which was passed in March 1999, is the latest piece of financial and fiscal legislation required by Chapter 3 to transform the financial and fiscal arrangements. It further legislated a series of sanctions to ensure compliance by administration and politicians. Therefore, compliance, compliance, compliance - not malicious compliance - is necessary. If there is failure to comply, steps must be taken.
The steps taken by the department, through the Minister, instituting investigations and suspending those officials who are found to be wrongdoers, are mostly welcomed. The suspension should not take a long time, as it would be fruitless expenditure paying people who are not at work. This is unless it is "no work, no pay", to save the public purse.
Minister, whip where you are supposed to whip, fire where you are supposed to fire, and reward or praise where you are supposed to praise. We will support you 100%, as this committee. [Applause.]
In 2009, a commitment was made by the ANC - it was not said by someone else, somewhere - that initiatives should be taken to fight corruption. These initiatives includes a review of the state procurement system to ensure better value for money from state spending, the vetting of the supply chain management personnel in government departments, and the involvement of businesspeople in fighting corruption by implementing anticorruption programmes, as fraud and corruption cripple service delivery. This shows that the ANC is not quiet about fraud and corruption.
The ANC has the capacity to lead and to deal with issues and to make decisions. The ANC does not need any cautioning from the DA, but the ANC can caution the DA. The Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, started in 2004, with the first phase up to 2009. Then the second phase started. It was not through elections.
Lungu elihloniphekile u-Swathe, angazi Baba ukuthi ukhuluma ngani ... [Hon member Swathe, I don't know what you are talking about ...]
... because you are a member of this committee. Information is power.
Uyithanda kakhulu i-DA, asazi uthi yakwenzelani ngoba thina yasihluphekisa kangaka. [You love the DA too much; we don't know what it has done for you, because it made us struggle so much.] [Interjections.]
The human resource status of the department reflects that 86% of the posts are occupied, and 943 posts - which is 14% - are vacant. In 2011-12, the department operated with an unstable top management structure. There were many people in acting positions. Progress was made by filling 1 286 positions. Is this not progress? There is still a high vacancy rate and a high number of resignations, which hinders service delivery. There is a need for the department to do a skills audit to check the skills that are available, skills that they need but that are not available, and to review the organisational structure to ensure professional, skilled personnel are being recruited, as this department is mostly a technical one.
Overuse of consultants by departments is a matter for concern. Eight consultants were appointed for e-works and four for paper trails. Consultants must be used where there is a lack of professional and technical skills, for instance, in the compilation of the asset register. Proper terms of reference must be developed and the consultants closely monitored.
The hon President, in his state of the nation address in 2012, indicated that all government departments were directed to ensure that the target set several years ago of employing 2% of people with disabilities in the public sector is being met. The department is still grappling to achieve that. Let this matter be taken seriously. Let the Department for the Public Service and Administration, DPSA, be involved in the recruitment process. It is true that there is nothing about them without them being involved. Let us make sure that in the next financial year you report progress on this matter.
Former President Nelson Mandela once said, "The purpose of the budget is to bring a better life for all; it is about transforming our country together". Therefore, the budget plays a crucial role in the democratic process, as the budget is for the people.
As Parliament, we allocate resources to departments to enable them to execute their mandate by providing services to the people of South Africa to better their lives. We therefore expect the resources to be used efficiently, effectively and economically for the benefit of the citizens, not individuals.
If other members of the committee come to meetings as they wish and are sometimes not part of oversight visits, they will not see or hear about progress made by the department. They will come here and talk about their dreams. They dream about being in power in 2019 and do not focus on the performance of the department. What a bad dream! [Interjections.]
Progress has been made by the department in making buildings accessible to people with disabilities, although there is still a lot to be done. The centralisation of Prestige, which resulted in a saving of R18 million, is progress. Development of the turnaround strategy to address the challenges within the department is progress. Progress has been made in completing some investigations. These will show whether any money was stolen, or not. Disciplinary action taken against officials who were found to be wrongdoers is progress.
Improvements made to better the lives of people through the EPWP and infrastructure development is progress. Provision of skills to the youth and women through the EPWP and other programmes, such as learnership internships, and the provision of bursaries to the previously disadvantaged students is progress.
The appointment of the director-general and the chief financial officer, where the posts were vacant for some time, is progress. [Interjections.] What is progress? [Interjections.] The department has been able to pay some service providers on time, although there is still a lot to be done. Is that not progress? [Interjections.]
Those with eyes will see that improvements have been made by the department. If they are not willing to see, they will not see. Let the department move on. Hon Minister, do not be scared by the noise. It is an indication that the department is working. Do not lose focus; you are on course. What worries the moon when the dog barks? If people are making unnecessary noise, continue working. [Interjections.]
While there are successes, as we have mentioned, there are challenges that the department needs to consider: high staff turnover, which results in the loss of organisational memory; a lack of monitoring of the implementation of infrastructure projects; insufficient budget to recruit and retain professional staff; shifting of funds within programmes due to poor planning; failure of client departments to pay the Department of Public Works for the provision of services rendered on their behalf, which impacts negatively on the finances of the department and on service delivery; a lack of compliance with various policies and legislation; underspending, overspending, fruitless and wasteful expenditure; and the nonalignment of the strategic plan, annual performance and budget.
Those are the issues that need to be taken into consideration. If you work, challenges will be there. However, challenges need solutions in order to do things well.
The ANC has, and always will, put our people first by investing in job creation, housing, education, skills development and growing the economy. The department has some committed personnel who can turn the tide and restore the image of the department.
Together, we can do more. All hands on deck. Citizens are waiting. The ANC will continue to intensify its efforts to provide services and opportunities to South Africans. The ANC is the only hope for South Africans. [Applause.]
Hon Dreyer ...
... uyazenzisa; iqiniso uyalazi. [... you are pretending; you know the truth.]
You know, you contradict yourself. You agree with us that there is progress, but ...
... uyajikajika. kunengoma ethi, "uyajikeleza indlela awuyiboni." Ihaba-ke ukuthi ... [... later you deny it. There is a song and its lyrics go like this: "You are going round in circles and you don't see the way." It is an exaggeration to say that ...]
... the DA will be in power by 2019. Not now, not tomorrow, not in the future. The DA must just forget it. Know very well and accept that the ANC is in power, and the ANC will reign forever.
Jesus is coming soon! [Interjections.]
You know ...
... sihlala siphupha; noJosefa waphupha. [Uhleko.] Kunengoma ebesiyicula sisakhula ebeyithi, "Ngiphuphe ngidatshukelwe, nezicathulo zibhobokile kube izicathulo zikhona, zizintsha sha!" Ngakho-ke ne-DA nayo iyaziphuphela nje. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[... we are always dreaming; Joseph also had a dream. [Laughter.] There is a song we used to sing when we were young. It goes, "I dreamt that my clothes were torn and my shoes had holes, whilst I have brand-new shoes!" Therefore the DA is just dreaming.]
... the DA is just dreaming. You know, while you are dreaming, the department must work. Unfortunately ...
... amaphupho abo ngeke afezeke. Mhlonishwa Sithole, sihlobo sami, usixoxela nje inganekwane ... [... their dreams won't come true. Hon Sithole, my friend, you are just telling a tale ...]
... about the disbandment of this department.
Ukube besinomshanelo ngabe sithathe izinti sahlohla ekhanda ngoba kumilisa izimpondo ukuxoxa inganekwane emini. [If there was a broom, we would have taken its sticks and stuck them to our heads because telling a tale in the afternoon makes one grow horns.]
That will not happen. Our responsibility, as this committee, is to assist the department to deal with the challenges that the department is facing. All of us here have promised South Africans a better life for all. All of us ... [Interjections.]
But you are in power. Your party is in power. That is the difference.
And we will be in power forever!
So, you have to deliver!
I know that the ANC will rule forever. That is not a dream. [Interjections.] I know that both Ministers and officials who are committed within the department will improve the performance of the department. That is not a dream. Let us give them a chance. Let us wait and see. We will see wonders. [Interjections.]
Hon Minister, we all speak with one voice. There is progress. We acknowledge the challenges that need to be attended to for the department to improve its performance. Therefore, on behalf of the ANC - the giant organisation, the organisation that leads, that lives - I want to say we support the Budget Vote of the Department of Public Works. I thank you. [Applause.]
UMPHATHISWA WEZEMISEBENZI YOLUNTU: Sihlalo, ndiyabulela kohloniphekileyo uMnu uMcIntosh we-Cope nohloniphekileyo uMnu Gaehler we-UDM, ngokuncoma nokugxeka apho kufanelekileyo, begxeka xa bebona ukuba kukho iimpawu ezinokugxekwa, bencoma xa bebona ukuba kukho inkqubela-phambili. Loo nto iyalakha isebe kwaye iyasikhuthaza nathi singaBaphathiswa.
Kuyacaca ke nto kaGaehler ukuba uthetha ngento oyaziyo xa uthetha ngokwakhiwa. Uyayazi ingxaki yoonokontraka abancinane. Kudala ke usinika iingcebiso ezisakhayo. Ndiyanibulela kakhulu. Kuyavakala futhi ukuba nobabini umongo lo eninawo nomthombo wenu usuka phi, usuka embuthweni omkhulu. [Kwahlekwa.] Iyavakala loo nto. Yiyo loo nto nikwazi ukuthetha kakuhle namhlanje.
Ukuba ulilungu elifana nohloniphekileyo uBawo uSithole we-IFP, nokuba ulilungu elinyanisekileyo nelikukhumbulayo konke ebelikuthethe ngaphambili phaya ekomitini, lize liphinde apha namhlanje xa libona iinkokeli ze-IFP liphike konke ebelikuvumile ngaphambili ... (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, I thank the hon McIntosh of Cope and the hon Gaehler of the UDM for commending and criticising where it is necessary; criticising where criticism is due and commending where there is progress. That empowers the department and encourages us as Ministers.
It is clear, Mr Gaehler, that when you talk about construction, you are talking about something you know. You know the problem of emerging contractors. You have been giving us constructive advice for a long time. I thank you very much. It is obvious from what you have said that your origin and experience are from the people's party. [Laughter.] One can easily pick that up. That is the reason why you are able to speak so eloquently today.
A member like the hon Sithole of the IFP is an honest member who remembers everything he said in the committee before, but then comes here today, when he sees leaders of the IFP, and denies everything that he has agreed upon earlier.]
It is dishonest and disingenuous, Mr Sithole, to sit in a committee, appreciate progress, but come here to a Budget Vote debate and disown everything that you have been saying.
Awunyanisekanga ... [You are not honest ...]
... because you are denying everything that you endorsed in the committee.
Ufike apha udilike, untlantlathe uthethe into ongayiva nokuyiva wena kuqala. Lihlazo ke elo.
Nawe Mam' uDreyer ohloniphekileyo, siyakubulela ngamaphupha akho onyaka wama-2019 nowama-2030. [Kwahlekwa.] Uyabona ke, kwiindwendwe zam ndimeme nomfundisi. Andazi nokuba uyaprofeta, kodwa ndabagqibela eBhayibhileni abaprofeti, okanye uyabhula njengegqirha. Zange ndive ke ukuba kukho igqirha lomlungu. [Kwahlekwa.] Andazi ukuba yintoni oyibhulayo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[You come here and say all sorts of things that do not make sense, even to yourself. That is a disgrace.
We thank even you, hon Dreyer, for your dreams of 2019 and 2030. [Laughter.] You see, I have also invited a pastor as one of my guests. I don't know whether you are prophesying, but I last heard of prophets in the Bible, or whether you are consulting with the spirits, just like a traditional healer. I have never heard of a white traditional healer. I don't know what it is that you are trying to divinise here.]
Agb Groenewald, die ondersoek is nog nie klaar nie, meneer. Jy moet wag. [Hon Groenewald, the investigation has not been concluded, sir. You should wait.] [Interjections.]
We are going to give you the results. There are a number of processes that have been put in place.
How I wish that more people could talk like the ANC members have spoken. ACDP member hon Swart, I could not agree with you and your analysis more. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Debate concluded.