Hon members, let me indicate that the hon Minister Motshekga is "acting" and will be responding to this question.
Hon Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: We have had an acting Minister who has been looking after this department. A new Minister was appointed, who was here until a few minutes ago. We cannot see the reason for the Minister to be absent.
No, hon member! In front of me I have a list. It says that a question directed to Public Service and Administration will be answered by a Minister - Minister Motshekga. Those arrangements were made between them.
Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Regarding a single Public Service, there is no policy as yet, though work is at a very advanced stage. The idea behind a single Public Service is to provide for the organisation, management, functioning and personnel-related matters in the administration of the three spheres of government. The idea is to create a single senior management service cadre, thereby facilitating the mobility of these managers within the Public Service; to provide a framework for remuneration and conditions of service for the single Public Service; to provide for a human resource development strategy; to provide for the interoperability of ICT transversal systems and financial and human resource systems; to create common norms and standards for human resources management and development across the three spheres in order to facilitate mobility of personnel across the spheres of government; and to create a common culture of service delivery across the three spheres, based on the principles of Batho Pele.
The second question relates to actions taken to improve or effectively support the economic development programme. The outcomes-based performance management system, which is under way and was introduced in 2010, has ushered in a new way of managing performance in the Public Service. The government's focus on outcomes brings organisational performance as a key factor in the management of the performance of heads of departments to improve governance and accountability. So, the approach of organisational performance is to improve on service delivery, including job creation, that systematically contributes to economic development.
The legislation and plan on the establishment of a single Public Service has not been finalised. As a result, costing has not been completed. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Thank you, Deputy Speaker, yes, my surname is not Marius but Marais.
Did I say Maria? You don't look like a Maria.
You initially said "Marius", and that is wrong.
That is why I corrected it now, later on.
Thank you very much. I would have loved to compliment my new Minister on her dress today but unfortunately she left before I could do that. I also wanted to tell her that this is not classified information. So, it will be easier for her to answer in the future. [Interjections.]
Minister, it was reported to the committee that there are two options under consideration, those being the single Public Service and the integrated Public Service. What are the characteristics of this integrated Public Service? How does it differ from the single Public Service and why is it not being considered more seriously?
Chair, my information is that it is a work in progress. He will get a full answer later. [Interjections.]
Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Minister, thank you for the information that this is a work in progress, but it has been a work in progress for a couple of years now. When is it envisaged that the "work in progress" will come to an end and a decision will be made? Is it still a problem because the union does not like one integrated Public Service? Is that the reason that this is not going to be completed, or what is the actual reason? This has been a work in progress year in and year out.
LETONA LA THUTO YA MOTHEO (lebitsong la Letona Tshebeletso le Tsamaiso ya setjhaba): Ntate, jwalekaha ke boletse, mosebetsi o sa tswela pele. Ha mosebetsi o se o fedile, o tla fumana tlaleho ya teng e feletseng. Ha jwale ke kopa o kokobetse matshwafo hoba karabo o tla e fumana. Mmuso ha o tate. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)
Sir, as I have already said, the work still continues. When the work has been completed, you will get a full report. For now I ask you to calm down because you will get an answer. Government is in no hurry.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, I ask you to revisit my point because that response just illustrates the issue I raised earlier. "Work in progress" is not an answer. If the Minister was delegated to answer on behalf of the Minister and you had that in writing long ago, then she should have prepared the answer and not come here and do exactly what I asked the Deputy President to avoid, which is to fiddle around and give us a ducking- and-diving answer. [Interjections.]
Ke a leboha Motlatsa Sepikara. Letona, ke rata hore o tiisetse Ntlo ena mme o re hlalosetse bohlokwa ba ho sheba mafapha wohle a mmuso. Lebaka la ho shebana le taba ena ya lefapha le hokahaneng kapa le le leng jwalekaha setho se hlomphehang se e hlalosa, ke hore ha re eme re kgone ho sheba mekga kaofela. Ke rata hore o hlalosetse Ntlo ena bohlokwa ba taba ena hobane ke rona Maloko a Palamente a yang letsholong ka ntle. Ke rona ba tsebang hore ho jwang boemong ba bomasepala. Ke rata o ba hlalosetse hore ho bohlokwa ho nka nako re lokisa taba ena hore re se qetelle re etsa diphoso tse ngata. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)
[Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Minister, I would like you to assure this House and explain the importance of focusing on all government departments - the purpose of dealing with the issue of a seamless department or a single one, just as the honourable member has explained. That is to say, we should be able to look at all departments at once. I would like you to explain to the House the importance of this matter because we are Members of Parliament who go outside for campaigning. We are the ones who know what it's like in the municipalities. I would like you to explain to them that it is important to take time to correct this matter so that we don't end up making a lot of mistakes.]
Well said!
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I also want to correct the member. As members of the Cabinet, we do not develop policies as individual Ministers. There shouldn't suddenly be a crisis because you saw the Minister here earlier. It always happens when we are abroad - colleagues stand in for us. There is no crisis. The member wants to create a crisis that is not there. The policy on the Public Service is constantly discussed and debated in the ruling party. [Interjections.]
Order, hon members!
Standing here as a member of the ruling party and a senior member of Cabinet, I understand why there is a need for a single Public Service. I agree with the last speaker that the idea is to have a seamless Public Service. That is what I said in the response that has been produced. I am sitting next to the Deputy Minister and she is confirming what I am saying, so I don't know what the drama is all about.
Ke dumellana le wena Mme MaMoloi hore ke nnete hore ho bohlokwa ho ba le tshebeletso ya setjhaba e hokahaneng e le hore basebeletsi ba mmuso ba kgone ho qala makaleng a fatshe mme ba ye hodimo. Makala ao a sebedisane mmoho le tsebo e teng e be tsebo e akaretsang. Disebediswa tsa mmuso le tsona di sebediswa ka tsela e etsang hore ho be bonolo ho sebetsa mehatong e fapaneng ya mmuso. Ke a leboha.[Mahofi.] (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)
[I agree with you, Mrs Moloi, that it's true that it is important to have a seamless public service so that public service employees should start in the lower ranks and work their way up. These ranks should work hand in hand and the knowledge they have should be general knowledge. Government resources should be used in a manner that makes it easy to work on different levels of government. I thank you. [Applause.]]
Particulars regarding steps to enable monitoring of municipal administration expenditure and strengthening of internal audit functions
96. Mrs S C N Sithole (ANC) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:
(1) What (a) measures has he put in place and (b) steps are being taken to (i) empower councillors to monitor municipal administration expenditure, (ii) strengthen internal audit functions in municipalities and (iii) ensure adequate communication between audit committees and mayors;
(2) when will he table a report (a) on the improvement of these aspects and (b) that municipalities will be able to achieve clean audits by 2014? NO1783E
Hon Deputy Speaker, training was provided to all councillors as part of the Salga Councillor Induction Programme during the financial year 2011-12. This included a full day dedicated to the Municipal Finance Management Act, Act 56 of 2003, and to financial management oversight. This was done to strengthen oversight of financial management. Training sessions for members of the municipal public accounts committees have been concluded and progress can be reported. We have a record of the completion of this training programme in the Eastern Cape, Gauteng, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Limpopo and Western Cape.
The Department for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is working closely with provincial treasurers and provincial departments responsible for local government to monitor the progress of municipalities in establishing internal audit units and their functionality. Furthermore, 200 learners will be trained through the Local Government Sector Education and Training Authority, the Local Government Seta, in partnership with the SA Institute of Internal Auditors. Where evidence indicates that there are issues of inadequate communication between audit committees and mayors with respect to specific municipalities, this will be addressed accordingly.
The recent announcement of the establishment of the Municipal Information Systems Association, or Misa, will further enhance this initiative. This is because it provides for the arrangement of focused and dedicated training in particular, including training in financial management. We had no intention of tabling a separate report in addition to the report that the Auditor-General normally provides but, if needs be, we are readily available. Government remains committed to the attainment of clean audits by 2014, and part of the pronouncement on the Budget Vote is to accelerate interventions aimed at improving good governance and sound financial management. Of course, we made statements when we tabled the Budget and we have no intention of making another statement, unless there are calls that we should do so. If so, we will gladly do so.
Hon Deputy Speaker, I do not have a supplementary question, but I just want to thank the Minister for the response. I am encouraged by the fact that there is further training with the Local Government Seta, in conjunction with the SA Institute of Internal Auditors. I say this because when we looked at the capacity of local government during our visit to the North West, we discovered that there was great willingness on the part of the politicians who are councillors, the municipal managers and the staff but a great lack of understanding of fundamental, basic bookkeeping. There is a great need to actually encourage the councillors to question the activities of the administration.
Some local municipalities are so small that it is very difficult for them to actually institute their own audit committees. They share with other committees. So I would ...
Thank you, hon member, your time is up now. That is a comment and not a question, hon Minister.
Minister, I presume you would agree with me that improving the financial management of municipalities is a key objective of this government and of the turnaround strategy of all municipalities. In that regard, improving the capability of councillors to exercise their oversight function is a central issue. My question to you is this: Firstly, are you, as the Minister, personally satisfied that what has been achieved to date since the establishment of your municipal turnaround strategy is in fact satisfactory progress? If you are satisfied, on what basis are you satisfied? I see things going down a lot more than up.
Secondly, you did mention that you were actively monitoring the establishment of these audit committees but you did not tell us how many have been established. Would you please tell us how many have been established?
Deputy Speaker, on whether I am satisfied or not, let me indicate that there is room for improvement, hon member. Financial management is key in the life of municipalities. Financial management is one of those areas where we can be satisfied that if we perform well, we will be on course regarding issues of service delivery and governance. So, there is room for improvement. That is why we made the question of financial management one of the five strategic focus areas. We need to pool all resources to be able to deal with these issues. On those municipalities that may be wanting in terms of size and their state of viability, we have adopted a programme of inviting working municipalities to support each other. We have also created the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agency to deal with questions of supporting these municipalities according to need.
On the question of whether I have statistics on how many audit committees have been set up, we will gladly provide the details. The focus of the question was not on the figures but more on the question of what mechanisms we have in place. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker, perhaps it will be cogent to start by congratulating the Minister on surviving yesterday's reshuffle and to say thank you to the Minister for the response. I think you would agree with me that we are very good, particularly in Cogta, at setting targets, creating bodies to oversee it and providing training. However, we are not very good at ensuring that the consequences of failure to achieve these targets are actually implemented. Perhaps the hon Minister would share with the House today, in very explicit terms, what the consequences would be for municipal leadership and staff, as well as for the department, department heads and the responsible programme managers if municipalities did not achieve their clean audits by 2014.
I fully agree with the hon member that the question of consequences in cases of noncompliance is something we should focus on, and we are taking that very seriously. That is why in our assistance programmes to municipalities we ensure that even when you come to a point where you sign a performance contract, it should not be just a kind of generalised statement. It must be based on what you seek to achieve. Of course there have to be consequences in cases where municipalities or individual workers within a municipality do not perform according to what is expected of them. We definitely need to be worried about that. We are saying the name of the game in co-operative governance is support, support and support. We shouldn't wait for a situation where failure affects us negatively. We should come in and provide the support. That is why we indicated that ours is, among other things, to narrow our focus to the objectives of the turnaround strategy and to achieve the objectives that we must achieve. It is exactly to address that. We believe that everyone will be on board. No one should be in a situation where they face sanctions. Thank you very much.
Hon Minister, the concern that Cope has is that we hear of all the interventions and the training but we do not see the impact thereof locally. It is one year after the election and still today there are municipalities where we had protests in recent weeks - and I want to name some of them: They include, among others, Sol Plaatje and Colesberg in the Northern Cape. Why? Because it seems that the councillors do not understand that there is an end to a budget. There is an end to financial expenditure. They are voting excessive salaries for the municipal managers. Then we find, as the hon Deputy President stated, that some municipalities, like Mbhashe, do not have enough income to pay service providers, maintain infrastructure and provide services.
Your time is up without your having asked a question.
Is the Minister as concerned about that as we are?
Government is as concerned as any citizen would be if things don't go well. Let me indicate that we should not be painting all municipalities with the same brush, as if one size fits all. There are municipalities that are struggling, like Fetakgomo Local Municipality in Limpopo, where councillors are doing their best. This is just one of the many I can mention - there are quite a number of them. Yes, of course, we are really concerned. That is why we are saying that local government is everybody's business. Let us all come in and be concerned but also do something to assist these municipalities.
Particulars regarding increase in focus on capacity of departments to effectively convert inputs
123. Mr N Singh (IFP) asked the Minister in the Presidency - Performance Monitoring and Evaluation as well as Administration:
(1) With reference to his Budget Vote speech on 16 May 2010, in which he made reference to an increase in focus on the capacity of departments to effectively convert inputs, what are the details of the tool for which he obtained Cabinet approval;
(2) whether he will make a statement on the matter? NO1824E
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. In April 2011 Cabinet gave a mandate to the Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation to regularly assess the quality of generic management practices in departments. The department has developed a methodology to assess the quality of management, in collaboration with the Offices of the Premiers, National Treasury and the Department of Public Service and Administration and in consultation with the Office of the Auditor-General and the Office of the Public Service Commission.
The methodology has been informed by similar management performance assessments carried out in other countries, such as Russia, the United Kingdom, Canada, New Zealand, Kenya, Turkey and India. The methodology involves working with the senior management of national and provincial departments to carry out self-assessments, which are then moderated by subject-matter specialists and cross-referencing to data produced by bodies such as the Auditor-General, the Public Service Commission, National Treasury and the Department of Public Service and Administration.
In the 2011-12 financial year, assessments were made of the quality of management practices in 103 national and provincial departments out of the 158. These assessments will be carried out annually. The aim of these assessments is to establish a baseline on the status of management practices, to implement improvement plans, where necessary, and to monitor improvement against the baseline.
As a department we are available to make more detailed presentations on these management performance monitoring results to parliamentary committees, as we have started to do with the Portfolio Committee on Public Administration. The results of the 2011-12 assessment have been submitted to Cabinet and we will make a statement after Cabinet has finalised the process.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I pressed the button. Mr Singh has been permitted to leave. I am asking this on his behalf. Minister, the question deals mainly with a tool that the Minister obtained from Cabinet to increase the focus on the capacity of departments to effectively convert inputs. I've listened to the methodology that you referred to. It shows that you have made a good study of it, and you referred to quality of management.
In the limited time that I have, I want to refer to one matter. It comes from the National Treasury budget of 2012 estimates. On page 4 it is said that expenditure on consultants is expected to increase from R4,7 million in 2011-12 to R20 million in 2014-15. What I want to ask the hon Minister is this: When people are appointed to important positions, one can safely assume that that person is competent and has a talent to do the job - but then they appoint consultants. I remember, I think ... [Time expired.]
Your time is up and you have not asked your question. [Interjections.]
Really?
Yes, really. You have gone 14 seconds over the time.
Thank you. [Interjections.]
Deputy Speaker, I heard the question. A question about consultants comes later. I think we can respond to the point that is being made in the context of that question.
Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, yesterday hon Marius Swart emphasised that departments such as the South African Police Service, Agriculture and Cogta have spent nearly 100% of their 2010-2011 budget allocations. Minister, our concern is that there is no correlation between spending and performance. Evidence of this is the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, which spent 97% of its allocation but achieved only 35% performance.
Has the Minister gone into the causes of these problems? Why is it that we have the capacity to spend the money but when it comes to performance, we witness dismal failure? The disjunction between capacity spending and performance means only one thing to us, and that is fruitless expenditure. My question to you, hon Minister, is this: Can you explain to us the disjunction between the percentage of budgets spent and performance?
Hon Deputy Speaker, it's unfortunate that we don't have sufficient time to deal with the details of the questions that are being asked because although the questions seem to be related to the first one, they are not. The question dealt with the performance management tool that we have developed to assess departments. In the course of assessing departments, as we said, we are working jointly with the Office of the Auditor-General and the Public Service Commission. What we call a performance audit is part of the audit outcomes of the Auditor-General. We assess the performance of a department as an institution on an ongoing basis and identify the gaps that need to be corrected. The report that we are going to release deals specifically with those aspects. Once you improve at that level, you are likely to improve in the problem areas that have been identified by the Auditor-General. That is why we are working closely with the Auditor-General to ensure that the information we have, the standards we set and the methodology we use complement each other to address the problems that are being identified by other bodies involved.
I am prepared to come to the portfolio committees to discuss the details of this issue. We don't have sufficient time in the House because you will tell me soon that my time has expired.
Deputy Speaker and Minister, this is just a follow-up. Don't you think that much of what you are going to do and the systems that you are introducing already exist in the Department of Public Service and Administration? Some of those performance systems that measure how senior officials should perform and what should happen if they don't are already there.
I think you also use the measures you have talked about to assess the police as a department. I was wondering about the issue of the R35 million that was spent recently, at the end of the financial year, on the purchasing of cars. In terms of assessment and monitoring, would you have picked up on that issue? Also, what is your view of that particular expenditure?
Firstly, I want to repeat that the question that was being asked related to management performance assessment tools specifically. That is the tool and the template we are using. We have developed it to assess the performance practices of departments with the intention of improving their capacity to respond to the challenges they are facing.
We have assessed 103 departments. That is not all of them - there are 158, both provincial and national. The results are out and they have gone through Cabinet. The results will be going out and we will meet the provinces that have participated in the exercise up to this point. So, that issue will be picked up. The process picks up management practices that are problematic and are not necessarily picked up by the Auditor-General or by other instruments.
As I said in my response, we are working jointly with the Auditor-General, the Public Service Commission, the Department of Public Service and Administration, and National Treasury. You need all those instruments resident in various institutions to come up with a comprehensive understanding of the challenges faced by departments.
At a later stage in that process, as the system matures, we will be able to identify and pick up early warning signs of problem areas. For example, if somebody does a purchase today, you cannot expect the system to pick it up tomorrow. It's a system that we are going to utilise as we proceed. Treasury can pick up problems because they have a system that tracks expenditure in departments. We utilise the Treasury system, the Auditor- General system, as well as those of the Public Service Commission and the Department for Co-operative Government and Traditional Affairs. In the next financial year, or towards the end of this year, we are beginning to move into local government specifically. This is because local government structures are different from provincial and national departments. They need their specific template to deal with the issues that are there. Once we have moved into that area, in a few years, we will be able to tell you at any given time what the state of affairs is, beyond the reports generated by other sources. We will be able to tell you what plans are in place to improve the situation.
We have graded departments into four categories. Category one, which is red, represents all those that are not compliant at all. In category two are the departments that are a little bit better in some respects but fall short in others. Then there is category three, up to category four. We do indicate what the issues are that we need to tackle. They are verified. We want proof or evidence to ensure that we write a report that is as accurate as possible. We involve the participants themselves. People are expected to be there and we moderate it externally.
Deputy Speaker, I think the Minister did touch on the question I wanted to ask, but maybe the Minister would like to amplify the matter. I agree with the Minister - he appeared before the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration and we are much clearer on the issues he is explaining. However, I would like to find out if the Minister would like to clarify to this House some of the improvements against the baseline as part of progress achieved thus far. He really has touched on most of them, but just to amplify because this is an important process.
Deputy Speaker, yes, as I said, we look at a range of management practices that have been agreed upon by all the transversal institutions - those that are supposed to provide services to departments. It is a template and was developed and tested in a pilot project that we ran the previous year. We are now rolling it out to the rest of the departments. The results, which we are going to produce and present to all portfolio committees, specifically the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration, will tell you which management practices are lacking; in which departments; and what evidence we have to prove our opinion that this department is not performing properly.
That information is meant to assist the departments to improve on their particular issues. So, we will know that in this area, the department has not been doing well. When we do it the next time, we need to see improvement and along the way we are going to determine which areas need to be improved. The departments themselves are working very hard to try and pull out those issues. So, that report is not necessarily like the Auditor- General's report - sometimes we get it, but things just end there and then we start complaining about it. We need improvement all the time. We need to be able to say, "This issue has been dealt with; those have not been done." The management of all the departments and the provinces that have been dealt with are very keen to participate in the project. They are very keen to improve their plans and to identify the weaknesses themselves. They prefer that to having the weaknesses identified from outside. I think this is a project that is likely to succeed if it is carried out successfully.
Particulars regarding recovery of irregular expenditure incurred by State Information Technology Agency
118. Mr L Ramatlakane (Cope) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:
(1) Whether her department has managed to ensure the recovery of the over R200 million that was reported by the Auditor-General as irregular expenditure by the State Information Technology Agency (Sita); if not, why not; if so, what (a) amount has been recovered in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, Act 1 of 1999, (b) amount is outstanding and (c) recovery plan has been put in place;
(2) whether any progress has been made with the latest 32 cases of maladministration that have been identified in Sita; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) whether the cases had been reported to the SA Police Service; if not, why not; if so, what has been the progress in this regard?