Hon Speaker, the World ... [Laughter.]
[Inaudible.]
Order, hon Ellis!
Hon Speaker, when members ask questions, they need information to be given to them. Why then are they refusing the information? Somebody is pleading, "Be shorter, please!" We want to give information to help answer the questions that members want to ask.
The World Economic Forum describes itself as an independent international organisation, committed to improving the state of the world by engaging leaders in partnership to shape global, regional and industry agendas.
More than 1 200 global leaders from governments and the private sector gathered in Dar es Salaam from 5 May to 7 May for the World Economic Forum on Africa. The theme of this year's meeting - "Rethinking Africa's growth strategy" - allowed our government to share a set of key messages with other participants in 25 of the 50 working sessions.
The sessions were integrated into four themes, namely: building effective institutions and governance structures, fostering sustainable growth and development, managing risks as opportunities, and fostering an empowerment mindset.
The meeting in Tanzania was not meant to be a representative meeting of African heads of state or government. No decisions are taken at the World Economic Forum. It is meant to encourage discussion and networking and for leaders in various fields to share information and promote their views, programmes and strategies on tackling the continent's challenges.
South Africa used the opportunity to argue that the continent should focus on diversifying secondary production, increasing intra-Africa trade, expanding regional co-operation and fostering further private-sector partnerships. We argued that Africa would need to overcome its infrastructure deficit and invest in transport, energy, water and telecommunications to further improve its global competitiveness.
Africa has to extend preferential markets across southern and eastern Africa through the Tripartite Free Trade Area. This will draw together the Southern African Development Community, the East African Community and the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa to promote intra-African trade and foreign direct investment.
Therefore, economic integration is a critical route towards economic development and less dependence on aid. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Mr Speaker, owing to unforeseen circumstances Rev Meshoe was unable to be here. I apologise for that and will endeavour to ask the follow-up question for him.
I would like to ask the hon President whether any plan to wean African states off foreign aid was presented during these discussions. What would the details around such a plan be? Would there be domestic reforms that would be necessary in terms of your discussions, rather than agreements? What role was envisaged for the private sector? Would the cessation of dependence on foreign aid mean nationalisation of African resources in any way? Thank you.
Hon Speaker, we discussed how Africa should intervene and position itself. We did not necessarily go into a discussion on the question of aid. That issue has been discussed at various other forums. At these forums Africa has said that it needed to look at the question of aid differently. Africa needs to move away from aid and get into investment.
I think there were those who said things closer to that point, but that was not the issue that was being discussed. The issue under discussion was how we should rethink Africa's positioning of itself in light of the global economic situation and activities. We are contributing in that direction. Thank you.
Speaker, a World Economic Forum report states that -
... large-scale human rights abuses and extreme poverty have marred 20th century Africa. The tradition of African silence has become more a liability than an asset.
Mr President, you said at the forum that, "... the benefits of democracy must lead to economic development and ... improve the quality of life of ordinary people."
In Africa, detention without trial continues unabated and gay people are being persecuted and imprisoned on the basis of their sexual orientation. This crime against humanity prevents economic development, breaches international agreements, deters direct foreign investment and is a violation of our own Constitution. This is an African challenge to which you refer.
Mr President, why are you and your government completely silent on this despicable, homophobic assault on the human rights and dignity of our brothers and sisters across Africa? Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, there are many things that happen in Africa. There have been many. I think we have been involved in a broader struggle on the continent: The struggle to try to right the wrongs; to try to deal with matters on the continent.
Our approach has been that we needed to persuade, we needed to make people understand, we needed to move with them. We have never adopted a confrontational stance on matters. We have been raising matters when matters have arisen, when things have happened, even on the issue that took place in Malawi.
We have commented already. Maybe the hon member missed those comments. [Interjections.] We have condemned the action taken to arrest people in terms of our Constitution, because it was contrary to our Constitution. We stated the views of this country, as contained in the Constitution.
The manner in which you address the matters on the continent could create conditions that are not conducive for you to engage and lead. But, you could adopt a stance in which you address matters in a manner that makes people receptive to what you say. And you might not adopt the same stance.
We have never kept quiet on the continent. We have raised our issues on elections that have not gone right. I don't think we have kept quiet. So, we are with you on this issue of representing the country and the continent. We are working hard to change Africa, and we will continue to do so. Thank you. [Applause.]
Speaker, my follow-up question is based on our colonial history. As you know, Africa was colonised, the colonists benefited from Africa, and now Africa has become economically dependent on colonial support. This weakens our democracy and independence.
I want to understand what the summit's view on Africa's debt was. Africa cannot grow because of the debts that it owes. Such debt causes a reversal even in our economy; we can't even develop and be independent. So, I would like the hon President to inform us of the summit's view on the debt, because ...
... sihlala sityala Mongameli ngeli thuba aba bantu besitya. Siyatyala, asiyi phambili. Ngoko ke, niyithini le nto? Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[... we are always in debt, President, while these people are benefiting. We are not progressing, we are in debt. Therefore, what are you doing about that? Thank you.]
Speaker, you know, in the sessions in which I participated we did not discuss African debt. It could have been discussed in other sessions; I can't remember. Of course, that is an issue that remains with countries because debt in Africa is not owned collectively. Individual countries have their debts and they have been trying very hard - and I think they have done a lot of work - to address the question of the debt. But it was not an issue that we specifically focused on there in order to find a solution. Thank you.
Effect of visit of political organisation on President's mediation role in Zimbabwe
9. Mr V B Ndlovu (IFP) asked the President of the Republic:
(1) Whether his mediation role in Zimbabwe has been hampered by the visit of a certain political organisation (name furnished) and its leader's statements; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so,
(2) whether he has taken any position in this regard; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1676E
Speaker, South Africa remains an impartial mediator and facilitator to dialogue between Zimbabwe's political parties. Its position in this regard is widely recognised, and all parties have indicated their confidence in South Africa's ability to discharge its mandate dispassionately. Neither the visit nor the statements to which the hon member refers have impaired South Africa in the performance of this responsibility. We are not hampered at all. I thank you, Speaker.
Ngiyabonga Somlomo, mhlonishwa Mongameli, kanye nabahlonishwa bonke. Engicela ukukubuza mhlonishwa Mongameli ukuthi: uthunywe lapha i-SADC ukuthi uyolamula ukuze uhulumeni wakwaBulawayo usebenze ngokubambisana kwizinhlangano zontathu.
Uma ke kuqhamuka umuntu ongaphansi kwakho, oyingane yakho esho okunye okubheke eceleni kunalokho okwenzayo. Okokuqala, kuyaye kufanele wenze njani njengomuntu omdala? Okwesibili, kufanele uthini kulaba abakuthumile futhi ubachazela uthini ngale nkinga ohlangabezana nayo yengane ephikisana nawe umdala uzama ukulamula abantu ekhaya na? [Uhleko.] UMOMGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKHI: Ngiyabonga kakhulu Somlomo, nelungu elihloniphekile lePhalamende ubab'uGatsheni, uBoya Benyathi, eqinisweni noma yinini uma ingane yakho kukhona ekwenzayo okuphuma eceleni, uyayikhuza.
Ingane ngiyikhuzile, ukuphendula ubuzo wokuqala.[Ihlombe.] Okwesibili akulona udaba lolu okulindelwe ukuthi luze lubikwe kwi-SADC. Baningi kabi abantu abakhulumayo ngodaba lwaseZimbabwe. Ukuba ngingaqoqa izinto ezishiwoyo eceleni ngithi ngiyozibeka lapha, ngiyethemba umbiko wami ungaba umqingo omkhulu kabi ngoba baningi abantu abakhulumayo ngodaba lwaseZimbabwe.
Okubabalukekile ukuthi ngiyokwethula umbiko kwi-SADC lowo oqondene ngqo nomsebenzi engiwenzayo. Asikafiki isikhathi sokuthi siyobika, sizobika bude budala njengoba sisebenza nje. Sibike ku-SADC ukuthi kuhamba kanjani. Umsebenzi uhamba kahle kakhulu kanti noma ingane ikhuziwe lokho akuzange kuphazamisane nomsebenzi esiwenzayo laphaya. Siyawuqhuba nje kahle, akunankinga nencane. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you Speaker, hon President, and all hon members. What I would like to say to and ask the hon President is this: You are sent by SADC to go and mediate in order for the three parties in the Zimbabwean government to work together. What are you going to do if your subordinate undermines your authority by doing the opposite of what you are doing? Firstly, what should you do as a person in a position of power? Secondly, what should you say to those who have sent you, and what explanation are you going to give them regarding this problem that you have encountered with this subordinate who undermines your authority? [Laughter.]
Thank you very much Speaker, and to the hon Member of Parliament, Gatsheni, Boya benyathi, in reality, whenever your child does something that is way out of line, you admonish him or her.
To answer the first question, I have admonished the child. [Applause.] Secondly, this is not a matter that should be reported to SADC. Many people are talking about the Zimbabwe matter. If I were to collect all the things that are being said, put them aside and bring them here, I believe my report would be very big, because many people are talking about it.
What is important is that I will present to SADC a report that is exactly in line with the work that I'm doing. The report is not due yet, so we will report at a later stage because we are still working. We will report to SADC how things are going. The work is going on very well. Even though the child was admonished, that did not interfere with the work which we are doing there. We are continuing with it. There is no problem at all.]
Speaker, I would like to thank the President for that reply. The person to whom this question refers, Mr Julius Malema, addressed the Mineral Resources portfolio committee yesterday, and he reportedly said, "The views of the ANC Youth League have always prevailed within the ANC." Now, when Mr Malema went to Zimbabwe in April, one of the statements referred to in this question was that he said he was going to intensify his campaign for the nationalisation of mines and land in South Africa.
In view of the ANC Youth League's prevalence in determining ANC policy, we want to know very directly from you, sir, whether you will give us the unequivocal assurance that your government will not nationalise mines and land. [Interjections.] We want that answer from you, sir, and not by way of a debate with the President of the ANC Youth League.
Speaker, I am sure we have answered this question in this House before. [Interjections.] We have said that Mr Malema, like any other South African, has a right to his views. His views are his views. It could be the views of the ANC Youth League, as well, and historically the ANC Youth League has had very strong views. It does not mean that all the views were accepted as they were, but they always had views, raised issues, and the matters would be discussed. Then resolutions were taken.
I think that what Mr Malema was articulating is not new, that he is articulating certain things. The ANC Youth League has always done so. He was simply making that point and that they would debate the issues and try to win the debate.
In the ANC, we are a democratic organisation, and even individuals, not only the youth, do so. They do raise their issues which are then debated. I can tell you, in the ANC we are used to debates.
On this matter, the ANC has a policy. It doesn't depend on the views of an individual. We don't work like that. We work on the ANC policy that emerges out of vigorous discussions. The aim of the policy is clear, and that is why I said that I have answered the question here before, in that we don't have a nationalisation policy as the ANC.
That question has been answered. You know it. I have even invited you, if this issue creates excitement, to debate the matter with Malema. [Interjections.] He is there. He is ready to debate the matter with you. Absolutely! [Applause.]
Order!
Thank you, Mr President. Does your mediation role include plans for peacekeepers for the expected forthcoming election, as requested by Prime Minister Tsvangirai? If not, why not? If so, what are the relevant details then?
Sorry, could you repeat the question? I couldn't hear you at the beginning.
Sorry, sir. In terms of your mediation role, does this include plans for peacekeepers for the expected forthcoming election and how will that pan out? Thank you.
Thank you. Our mediation does not include peacekeepers. Peacekeepers go to places where there is a fight. In Zimbabwe, there is no fight. [Interjections.] What has happened in Zimbabwe has been the request for people to come and monitor elections. That is how I've heard Tsvangirai speaking, that in the coming election he will ask the Southern African Development Community to monitor them.
You bring in peacekeepers where there is a fight, where you want to stop a fight. I haven't heard Tsvangirai talk about peacekeepers. I've heard him talk about monitoring and observing the election.
That is not what we are debating at the moment. We are dealing with the implementation of the plan. Probably, once the issue of the election emerges as an issue on the agenda, that matter will arise, and I am sure it will be attended to at that time. Thank you. [Applause.]
Lessons learnt from involvement in peace processes in Sudan 10. Dr G W Koornhof (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
Whether the government has learnt any lessons from its involvement in the peace processes that culminated in elections in Sudan; if so, how will it assist the government in achieving its foreign policy objectives on the continent? NO1735E
Speaker, South Africa's involvement in Sudan is informed by its strategic foreign policy priority, that peace, security and stability are prerequisites for Africa's socioeconomic development. South Africa is of the view that the resolution of conflict and restoration of peace in the largest country on the continent will not only impact positively on the Horn of Africa, but on the African continent as a whole.
Since the signing of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement, CPA, in 2005 to end the 21-year civil war, South Africa has been actively involved in supporting Sudan in its democratic transformation. South Africa has assisted the government of Southern Sudan to build capacity and develop institutions for governance since 2005.
In addition, South Africa has engaged both the government of national unity and the government of Southern Sudan to strengthen capacity in the police service with a view to developing a culture of democratic policing.
With elections being one of the key elements in the democratic transformation of Sudan, the South African government took a decision to assist the National Elections Commission and to deploy an observer team under the auspices of the African Union. These elections, notwithstanding challenges, are viewed as a positive step towards the democratic transition of Sudan as envisaged in the CPA.
A critical lesson from international involvement in conflict resolution, including South Africa's role in the peace processes, is the need to foster and maintain a common and united international approach regarding the implementation of agreements.
It is also clear that no solutions are possible or sustainable without the active involvement of all parties in the conflict. It is important to emphasise inclusivity and consensus-seeking and to discourage any forms of unilateral action. In January 2011, Sudan will be conducting a historic referendum on the future of the country.
In light of the importance and the sensitivity of the process, it is incumbent on the African Union and the broader international community to work with the parties to reach agreement on the final aspects of the CPA and the post-referendum causes and issues. Failure to agree on these critical issues could set the peace process back and give rise to political tension and instability. In this regard, South Africa will continue to provide support to the AU high-level implementation panel on Darfur under the auspices of former President Thabo Mbeki.
In addition, South Africa will render assistance to the United Nations, the Intergovernmental Authority on Development and other interested parties towards a peaceful resolution to the Darfur conflict. South Africa will also continue its facilitating role as Chair of the Committee on Post- Conflict Reconstruction and Development in the Sudan, as mandated by the African Union. I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr President, thank you for the comprehensive reply to this question. I am glad that you have referred to the upcoming referendum early in 2011. I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on this. The referendum regarding, as you say, the question of a united Sudan, the north and the south, is scheduled for early 2011. Could you elaborate on what the view of our government is regarding this upcoming referendum? And, how important is the role that the AU should play in the run-up to this important event? Thank you.
Hon Speaker, our view is that Sudan should remain one country. The referendum should achieve that purpose. That is why we have participated in many respects, as I have just indicated, to help the south and the north to work towards an understanding, so that they are ready when they have the referendum to agree that Sudan is one country. That is the view of the AU as well and of many countries on the continent. That is also the view of the international community.
That is why all of us are doing everything we can to ensure that that becomes an outcome at the end. We are very happy that at least the elections took place and produced results that have been accepted by the world. We believe that that, in a sense, creates ground for us to work harder to ensure that by the time of the referendum there is a better understanding among the Sudanese, particularly the north and the south, as well as Darfur and other areas of Sudan. That is our view and that is what we will be working towards in terms of assisting Sudan. Thank you.
Thank you, Speaker, and thank you, Mr President. After the Sudan elections, do you think that we should call back our people who have been deployed in Sudan, who are assisting the police or the army, or should we carry on until the referendum has been held? What is SADC's position on the implementation and the cost thereof of those people who are deployed in Sudan? Thank you.
Thank you, hon Speaker. The situation determines how long people stay. Sudan does not have problems in one area only. Apart from the differences and difficulties between the south and the north, you also have Darfur. Darfur is a major problem and that is where the main concentration is of those who are helping. As you heard recently, some South Africans were kidnapped there. It was in that area.
I am not certain whether it will be easy to do so after the elections. I cannot speculate. The reality is that Darfur is still a problem. Much as we have held elections, there is no evidence that the elections resulted in the disappearance of the problems in Darfur, or that it impacted positively so that we can see what happens.
Certainly, once the situation is better and there is no need for foreign forces to help, we will be able to call people back. That is also the view of SADC, the African Union and the United Nations. It will be determined by how the efforts on the ground, to bring about peace and stability, progress in terms of what we think should happen.
On the question of cost, I have a similar kind of answer. As long as there is conflict, one can't say that we have paid enough now, that we are leaving you, and you can go on killing one another. We will continue to ensure that we try to bring about peace.
Certainly, it is always costly. It has always been costly. But, of course, people will argue that one cannot put a price on the lives of people. Therefore, we want peace in this continent and we will do whatever is in our capacity, as will the AU and other countries. There is also IGAD - the Intergovernmental Authority on Development - which is closer to the situation and which is working with everyone. There is also the involvement of the international community. So all of them, I'm sure, will come together to decide whether the situation has changed enough to recall our people or not. It will depend on conditions as well as consultation. Thank you.
Reconciliation of President's comments about faster land reform with those about its application being within the ambit of the law
11. The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the President of the Republic:
How does he reconcile his recent comments at the Black Management Forum on 29 April 2010 about the government's faster and more pragmatic approach to land reform with his comments that such a policy would be carried out within the ambit of the law?