Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report of the Portfolio Committee on Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities

Meeting report

Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report of the Portfolio Committee on Women, Youth and Persons with Disabilities

Ms Kashifa Abrahams, Committee Content Adviser, said she and her team had a very short period of time to compile the report to have it ready for today’s meeting, after incorporating the last Committee meeting held the previous Tuesday. The report had to be comprehensive enough to include a whole year's worth of work, which took significant time to put together. She recommended that Parliament reconsider these reporting timeframes on voluminous work of this nature.

Regarding the forensic investigations into money paid to Commissioners, she had sought legal counsel and had been advised that considering the Public Finance Management Act (PFMA), the Public Audit Act (PAA) and some prescripts from National Treasury (NT), a forensic investigation could happen only concerning information that was not in the public domain. The Commission for Gender Equality (CGE) matters were in the public domain due to reporting that had been done, and there had been engagements regarding those matters, so technically a forensic investigation could not be requested. However, the Auditor-General (AG) could be requested to do an investigation according to the PFMA. This had been included as a recommendation in the Budgetary Review and Recommendations Report (BRRR).

The other investigations that the Committee had requested involved the 17% provident fund and the leave gratuity. The legal office had indicated that there was a court process underway regarding the Provident Fund so there could not be a parallel process of investigation. However, the Committee could ask for a comprehensive report on who was implicated, how it came about and the current status. Once the court process was concluded, if the Committee was still not satisfied, only then could the Committee request an investigation.

Regarding the Chief Executive Officer matter, the advice was that until the Committee actually received a report from CGE's human resources department that indicated when her contract ended, how much leave she had left over, and how much she had been paid, there could be a follow-up recommendation for an investigation.

Discussion

The Chairperson commented that regarding CGE, the Committee had concerns about paying part-time commissioners. As an independent institution, it was stipulated in the Act how many hours the commissioners were allowed to work. The CGE had taken a resolution they had presented to the Committee, that part-time commissioners would be paid for 100 hours of work. The Committee had also supported the payment of commissioners during Covid times. However, it was concerned about documents not being submitted to support the resolution the CGE had taken. These documents should state how they calculated 100 hours for a proper audit trail.

She added that the hours claimed by a commissioner of the CGE did not make sense, and it seemed as if she had been paid for work she did not do. She had stated that her parents were ill and she had to be out of office, but had put in claims for hours worked. She was also a full-time staff member at the University of Pretoria. The Chairperson asked when she could have worked all the hours she had claimed. Most of the work this Commissioner had to do in the Eastern Cape, had been done by the chairperson of the CGE. This was the basis on which the Committee wanted an investigation. The Chairperson added that this commissioner had been trying to intimidate the Committee through the media and lawyers, potentially thinking that the Committee would back down on this investigation.

Lastly, she requested that Ms Abrahams and her team focus on what was in the public domain in one report but not in another, so that the latter report informed what was required from the forensic report. The intention of the Committee was to recoup money paid to individuals for work not done.

Ms N Sharif (DA) said she was confused about the 100 hours because the CGE had said it was for a limited period only, but even today, those hours were still being paid for, which was a problem. The timesheets and work the commissioners submitted, did not add up to 100 hours. She agreed with the Chairperson that an investigation must be done.

The Chairperson commented that the chairperson, the chief executive officer (CEO) and chief financial officer (CFO) of the CGE should be held accountable for these hours that did not add up, based on what they had presented to the Committee.

Ms M Hlengwa (IFP) agreed with Ms Ndaba.

Ms Sharif requested that under the BRRR's recommendations, the issue of the continued payments for the 100 hours should be raised. The CGE chairperson had reported to the Committee that those hours would go on until December 2021, but they had not presented any timesheets for the period. They had presented timesheets only from February 2022. The recommendation was that an investigation must be done for that, because someone was not following procedures. She added that people could not be paid that much money for doing minimal work.

Ms Abrahams commented that legal advice on this matter was that the Committee first needed the report from the CGE stating that they had exceeded 100 hours. The Committee could not recommend that it be stopped until they knew it was happening in the first place. The matter could be placed under Auditor General recommendations -- to check whether the 100 hours paid to part-time commissioners had continued, and why.

Ms F Masiko (ANC) said it must be included in the report that the Committee was generally concerned about the performance of the CGE as a whole, and the decline in confidence in its leadership structure.

She also supported the recommendation that the CGE submit monthly reports on key matters.

She further asked how many Committee meetings the Minister did not attend, and for Members to give guidance as to whether the number of ten had been verified according to parliamentary records, or was merely an estimate.

Ms Hlengwa said the number for the Minister’s attendance was not correct, as the Committee had not agreed to count the numbers.

Ms C Phiri (ANC) agreed with Ms Hlengwa that it should be highlighted that the Minister did not attend a  number of meetings, but the number ten should be excluded.

Mr L Mphithi (DA) commented that he had raised this concern about the Minister’s non-attendance of meetings several times. He did not agree with merely stating “several” meetings, and suggested the Committee should look through attendance records to get the actual numbers.

Ms Hlengwa asked what the purpose of an apology from the Minister served if she would be marked as absent.

Mr Mphithi responded that in the meeting with the Department, there had been a dispute about the point he had raised about the Minister’s absenteeism. It had been made clear that the Minister could miss three or four meetings, but in this case, the number of missed meetings exceeded the reasonable number. He said his point was on reasonableness, and not on apologies.

Ms Masiko responded the report had to include verified numbers. The Minister had pointed out in her response that she did not have a Deputy Minister. The Department had also raised with the Committee that its meetings sometimes clashed with Cabinet meetings. There was also a request for Committee meetings to be moved to a Wednesday if there was a clash with Cabinet meetings. The Committee needed to consider accepting apologies when the Minister was attending Cabinet meetings. The Committee needed to decide which apologies they accepted and which did not. Generally, they were concerned as a Committee about the Minister’s low attendance at Committee meetings.

Ms Phiri agreed with Ms Masiko. She added that the Committee should also appeal to the person who worked closely with the Minister to assist in getting the Minister to attend more Committee meetings.

Mr Mphithi thanked Ms Abrahams and her team for putting a thorough 98-page document together.

He requested that a recommendation should be added -- that the National Youth Development Agency (NYDA) should provide a report of all the international trips its board members took so the Committee could understand how these trips assisted the young people of South Africa.

The Chairperson commented that the chairman of the NYDA’s trip to Zanzibar should be included only if it was an official trip.

Ms Abrahams confirmed that in addition to the recommendation regarding the NYDA’s international trips, she would add that the report should include the number of trips, the number of board members who attended, the purpose of the trips and their cost. She said the Department should submit such reports to the Committee regularly.

Ms Hlengwa seconded Mr Mphithi’s recommendation regarding the NYDA’s international travel. She raised concern that on these international trips, no young person was travelling as part of the delegation.

Ms Masiko commented that the outcomes of the international trips should be included in the report because they needed to be measured against targeted outcomes, and to check whether money had been spent for the right purpose.

The Chairperson commented that the NYDA had posted pictures of the trip to Zanzibar. She supported Mr Mphithi’s recommendation of them disclosing all international trips undertaken by them. She said at the time the NYDA came to report, they had spoken about the Russia trip but had not spoken about the Zanzibar trip. She said the NYDA had disclosed incomplete information.

The Committee adopted the report with the recommendations and deliberations stated above as reflections, observations, and Committee discussions.

Mr Mphithi requested the reservations of the Democratic Alliance to be noted.

Announcement

The Chairperson announced that the Committee would be presenting a report on the remuneration of CGE commissioners [in the National Assembly next week]. Political parties who wish to make a declaration should do so.

Minutes of previous meeting

Ms T Masondo (ANC) raised concern that her apology for her absence was not noted in the minutes of the meeting held on 9 September.

Closing remarks
Ms Masiko took over as acting Chairperson, as the Committee Chairperson was experiencing connectivity challenges.

She thanked Ms Abrahams and her team for a job well done in producing the report.

The minutes of the previous meeting were adopted. 

The meeting was adjourned.