Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill [B50-2013]: Minister's and Department's briefing, Fluxman report progress

Meeting report

Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill [B50-2013]: Minister and Department of Women Children and People with Disabilities briefing
The Chairperson noted that the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities (DWCPD) would, for the first time, brief the Committee on the Women Empowerment and Gender Equality (WEGE) Bill. The Bill was currently classified as a section 75 Bill, in the ATC, but there was a possibility that the Joint Tagging Mechanism may re-classify it as a section 76 bill.

Ms Lulu Xingwana, Minister of Women, Children and People with Disabilities, explained that the presentation now handed out was slightly different from the presentation that was circulated earlier on, and she would be giving a presentation not on the regulations or the framework, but on the estimated budget for the Bill.

Ms Xingwana stated that the WEGE Bill of 2013 was based on the values enshrined in the 1996 Constitution and other international instruments that established the framework for the achievement of gender equality. She added that the Preamble of the Bill set out an affirmation of South Africa’s commitment to the promotion of gender equality and prohibition of discrimination based on gender.

The Minister took Members briefly through the application of the Bill. Clause 2 of the Bill provided that, unless otherwise indicated, it would apply to designated public and private bodies. Clause 2(2) then set out that the Minister could designate public and private bodies to comply with one or more provisions by notice in the Gazette, in order to achieve progressive realisation of the Bill’s objectives. Clause 2(3) provided that the Minister could from time to time, for the purpose of subsection (2), designate different public bodies and private bodies to comply with the provisions.

Ms Xingwana stated that clause 3 of the Bill dealt with the objectives of the Bill which were: to give effect to the letter and spirit of the Constitution, to facilitate compliance with the country’s commitment to international agreements, to align aspects of the laws and implementation of the laws relating to women’s empowerment, and the appointment and representation of women in decision making positions and structures. Other objectives were to facilitate the development and implementation of plans and strategies on the empowerment of women, which were to be submitted to the Minister for consideration, evaluation and guidance, and to provide for the implementation of measures to achieve a 50% minimum representation and meaningful participation of women in the decision-making structures. The Bill aimed to further gender mainstreaming and educate the public on prohibited practices that unfairly discriminated against people, on the basis of their gender.

The Minister stated that clause 4 of the Bill provided for access to education for all to address discriminatory practices. This was to ensure that education equipped women with the requisite knowledge, skills and values that enabled them to participate in the economy.

Clause 5 of the Bill provided for designated public and private bodies to develop and implement models that delivered women’s health, to achieve the realisation of access to health and reproductive rights in compliance with applicable legislation and international agreements such as the Millennium Development Goals.

Ms Xingwana stated that public education on prohibited practices, including gender based violence, was provided for in clause 6(1), which required designated public and private bodies to develop and implement plans and measures to educate the public on prohibited practices. Clause 6(2) provided that the Minister should establish mechanisms to undertake research, educational programmes and other measures that strengthened the efforts of the designated bodies.

The Minister stated that the Bill also dealt with equal representation and participation. This was covered in clause 7. Clause 7(1) said that, despite other existent laws, designated bodies must develop and implement measures to achieve the 50% representation. Clause 7(2) of the Bill concerned political parties, which should be developing and implementing measures that ensured the realisation of at least 50% representation and meaningful participation of women. Ms Xingwana also mentioned that all designated bodies were required to submit their plans to the Minister within a year of being designated, in line with clause 7(4). Furthermore, clause 7(5) was a provision for the Minister to request designated bodies, at any time, to submit a report to the Minister on its implementation of measures anticipated in clause 7(1) of the Bill, so that they could be reviewed and so that guidance could be given.

Gender mainstreaming was dealt with in clause 8 of the Bill. The Minister stated that clause 8(1) provided for implementing gender mainstreaming and submitting plans that ensured gender mainstreaming. Clause 8(3) ensured that policies, plans, programmes and strategies in public bodies were to be approved by the Gender Focal Point contemplated in clause 15. The policies plans and strategies for  private bodies were to be approved by the accounting officer contemplated in the same section.

Ms Xingwana stated that clause 9 of the Bill provided measures that ensured empowerment of women and elimination of discrimination. Clause 9(1) provided that, despite any other law, targets on women and men in all laws should be to have at least 50% women. Clause 9(2) provided that all designated bodies should align their laws and strategies to the provisions of clause 9(1). The Minister stated that clauses 9(3) and 9(5) provided for special measures that protected and advanced women, as a category that was disadvantaged by unfair discrimination. There were now measures that sought to eliminate gender discrimination, exploitation of women in labour markets and gender based violence.

The Bill ensured economic empowerment of women, in clause 10. The Minister stated that all laws and policies on economic empowerment should provide for at least 50%, and all designated bodies should develop and implement plans and strategies to align their laws with 50% women representation within two years of the Act coming into operation. Also all designated bodies should promote the empowerment of women and the promotion of women’s access to economic and educational opportunities and productive resources.

Ms Xingwana also stated that clause 11 of the Bill ensured for the socio-economic empowerment of women in rural areas, whilst clause 12 provided for socio-economic empowerment of women with disabilities. She also stated that the Minister of WCPD had been provided with powers to promote and coordinate the achievement of women empowerment and substantive gender equality, in clause 13 of the Bill.

Clause 14 of the Bill provided for the Minister in the DWCPD, in consultation with relevant Ministers, to give guidance to designated bodies to promote women empowerment and gender equality.

Gender Units and Accountability issues were dealt with in clause 15. Ms Xingwana stated that every designated public body should, within a period of three years from commencement of the Act, establish a Gender Focal Point (GFP) and suitable personnel should be appointed at a Senior Management Service level. Designated private bodies should have Accounting Officers who were accountable for gender mainstreaming.

Ms Xingwana stated that the Bill finally provided, subject to the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act (IGRFA), that the Minister acting in the interest of women as a group or class of persons could use any or all dispute resolution mechanisms to address non-compliance with the Act as a way of enforcement.

Women Empowerment and Gender Equality Bill 2013 Estimated Budget.

Ms Xingwana stated that the DWCPD had requested assistance from the Financial and Fiscal Commission when developing the budget. She presented an estimated budget which was based on the Department’s mandate to ensure equity and access to development opportunities for vulnerable groups such as women and girls, monitoring and evaluating the mainstreaming of gender, children’s rights and disability considerations into all programmes of government and other sectors, and monitoring the extent to which the social and economic circumstances of women, children and people with disabilities had improved. The budget covered the estimated financial and human resources cost for implementing the WEGE Bill. 

Ms Xingwana stated that the WEGE Bill was divided into two sub-programmes, with a timeline of three years, covering the financial years from 2014/2015, to 2016/2017. Sub-Programme 1 was to ensure compliance with the provisions in the Act. The sub-programme consisted of Research and Policy, with a total estimated cost of R18 201 699, Communication with a total cost of R26 948 609, Legal services with a total of R14 168 760; and Intersectoral and International programmes with a total cost of R18 090 648. Overall, Sub-programme 1 would cost R77 410 716 over the period of three years. Sub-programme 2 consisted of Advocacy and Mainstreaming programmes, with a total cost of R26 032 438, Institutional Support and Capacity Building with a total cost of R24 818 294, Monitoring and Evaluation R22 145 685. The estimated total cost for Sub-programme 2 was R72 996 417. Ms Xingwana also stated that the estimated total cost of the whole programme would be R150 407 133 over a period of three years, translating into R50 million each year.

Discussion
The Chairperson thanked the Minister for the presentation and stated that Members had been eagerly awaiting the Bill for a period of three years. There were policies and programmes for women, but they had not been implemented. She stated that perhaps with the WEGE Bill, matters would now move forward and women would be assisted.

Ms B Ngcobo (ANC) thanked the Minister for the presentation and wanted to know which programme public education fell under. She also suggested that perhaps, at a later stage, all abbreviations could be listed so that it would be easier for anyone who read the Bill to follow it.

The Chairperson informed all persons present that the presentation was to the Committee, and therefore only Committee Members would be allowed to ask questions or make comments at this meeting. She stated there would be a forum in the future where stakeholders could participate.

Ms L van der Merwe (IFP), thanked the Minister and the officials from the DWCPD for the Bill, which had been a long time coming. As a woman, she welcomed the legislation, but raised a concern that in South Africa there are many Bills and Acts which failed when it came to implementation. She added that the new Bill did not seem to set out any enforcement mechanisms and was worried that it would become just another piece of paper. She noted that already, the Broad Based Black Economic Empowerment Act targeted 50% black female representation in management, and this was not being achieved. She wanted to know how the new Bill would go about achieving its set targets.

Ms van der Merwe also wanted to know whether Cabinet had already approved the funding for the legislation.

Ms van der Merwe further asked how the Bill would go about defining the decision making structures as it spoke about audit structures, and wanted to know if the Bill was referring to top management, middle management or lower management.

Ms van der Merwe referred to clause 7(2) and wanted to know if it meant that all political parties had to subscribe to a 50% female representation. She pointed out that political parties were voluntary organisations, and wondered how this would then be implemented.

Ms H Lamoela (DA) stated that it would be useful to know exactly how the Bill was to be tagged. She also wanted a schedule of what public hearings were likely to be held on the Bill. She felt that the costing presented was rather broad, and she had expected a breakdown of programmes involved in the costing.

Ms Lamoela questioned whether the Bill was not overriding the mandate of the Commission for Gender Equality (CGE), which, as she understood it, was to monitor, investigate, research, educate, lobby, advise and to report on issues concerning gender equality. She asked for clarity on designated public bodies and designated private bodies.

Ms Lamoela further questioned whether, in the context of labour and employment, this Bill might also not be also a duplication of other existing Acts, and referred to Ms van der Merwe’s concern that other existing legislation was not being implemented. She listed some other existing legislation - such as the Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act, Employment Equity Act, Broad Based Black Economic Empowerment Act and the core labour laws, including the Basic Conditions of Employment Act and the Labour Relations Act. She wondered if WEGE was not duplicating what was already in these pieces of legislation, and, if it was not, then how successful the existing legislation was in bringing gender parity to the fore, especially in the labour market and the workplace. If the existing legislation had been deemed as successful, then this begged the question why gender equality was not achieved, as also what the challenges were. She wondered if it would not be better to amend and improve existing legislation, rather than embarking on a costly process to have yet more new legislation.

Ms Van der Merwe asked whether there were international examples similar to WEGE, and whether, in addition to the budget, the Department had looked at the skills required, and how many extra staff would have to be employed in order for the legislation to be implemented effectively.

Ms B Tinto (ANC) noted the reference to three years for implementation of the Bill, and wondered if that meant that unstable family problems would persist for another three years, including abandonment and mutilation of children. She wanted to know whether the Bill would assist in resolving these problems, or there was a need for either for some other new Bill or an amendment of the justice sector legislation. She added that there were many laws and Bills that were not assisting in stopping the problems in the communities.

The Chairperson reminded Members again that she had clarified, at the start of this meeting, that the Bill was classified as a section 75 Bill at the moment, but still had to go through the Joint Tagging Mechanism to be finally classified; only after that process would the Committee be informed of any changes.

Ms Xingwana stated that at the moment there were no abbreviations in the Bill; however the department would clarify any abbreviations for future presentations. She responded that public education was covered under the Research programme in Sub-programme 1. The Research programme would produce reports informing the public on trends and status of women in the country. There was also the communications component which would also assist a great deal in public education, raising awareness and producing pamphlets and so on, to educate communities. She added that there was also the advocacy component which would be used to advocate and promote women’s rights as well as educating communities. The Institutional Support and capacity building programme would not only address the public but also government departments, through advocacy and trainings and workshops and had been included in the budget.

Ms Xingwana responded that clause 16 dealt with enforcement. She stated that the Intergovernmental Relations Framework would use dispute resolution mechanisms to address non-compliance. The Department would also be looking at other mechanisms; for example if dealing with the mining sector the Department would work with the Minister for mining, because that Minister and Department of Mineral Resources had mechanisms that dealt with mining companies that were not complying with the mining legislation; it was important to note that the Bill stipulated that there should be compliance with all other legislation, whether economic or social, to align to the WEGE Bill. Similar mechanisms would be used in regard to the Broad Based Black Economic Empowerment Act, Employment Equity Act and so forth. In addition, the Committee had powers to make additions if it felt there was a need to do so.

The Bill was legislating for public as well as private entities, and whilst political parties were voluntary,  at some stage they became public entities - for instance Committee Member Ms van der Merwe was in Parliament as a public representative, and not as a volunteer. As such the Bill would empower more women in the IFP and all other parties to be parliamentary representatives and fight for women’s rights. The Bill was legislating for the transformation of society as a whole.

In terms of international examples, there were similar pieces of legislation in Australia and the Scandinavian countries, but WEGE had been modified to suit South Africa’s conditions. Rural women and the nation’s background and culture had been taken into consideration.

Ms Xingwana stated that staff needed had been included in the cost estimates. She asked the Chairperson whether it would be possible for the Department to come and present a detailed budget in the future, as the estimate was intended to give members only a brief idea of the programmes’ cost. More staff had been included, to build capacity to effectively implement and monitor the Bill.

Ms Xingwana said that the question raised by Ms Lamoela about the full programme on public hearings was up to the Committee to confirm.

Ms Xingwana confirmed that CGE was part and parcel of the consultations. It had participated in consultation and also made inputs when the Bill was published for public comments. Parliament was also going to hold public hearings, which would allow CGE to add more inputs if necessary, and of course Parliament could make amendments to any part of the Bill as well.

Ms Xingwana noted the comments on the performance of other pieces of legislation dealing with employment equity, broad based black economic empowerment, conditions of employment and so forth, but she reminded members that the Bill was about empowerment of women and was looking at the social, political and economic empowerment of women. That other legislation essentially was addressing issues of economic empowerment only, whilst WEGE was looking at the whole spectrum of empowerment of South African women from political participation of women, empowering women in the rural areas, women with disabilities, and asking for women to be fully represented in traditional authorities or traditional councils. In her view, the other legislation was looking at selected aspects of women’s life rather than entire empowerment.

Ms Xingwana conceded that it was a challenge to empower women specifically through these other pieces of legislation; for instance, it was mostly black men who had been empowered by BEE whilst very few black women had benefitted in the same way, but at least 50% of Black Economic Empowerment deals should be given to women. WEGE would assist in ensuring that this was happening, and assist in enforcement.

In regard to the timing, Ms Xingwana responded that the three years of the programme were referring to the Gender Focal Points. The rules of natural justice would apply to the designated bodies, so they would have ample time to do and implement what was expected of them. For instance, it was recognised that a company might not have women capable of carrying out certain duties immediately, but the legislation was seeking for progressive realisation of the 50% representation. At the same time, however, there was a need to ensure that the environment was prepared, and for companies to have plans that showed they were serious about empowering women to management levels, whilst the Department must oversee that companies had budgets to train women, and had set targets. The three years was really about being fair to companies.

The Chairperson asked how the DWCPD had envisaged gender mainstreaming in the provinces, especially in the Premiers’ offices, because women tended to be located in junior offices where they could not make any decisions.

Ms E More stated that three years was not enough to train someone to a position of making management decisions in a company and asked the Minister to expand on this. She suggested that, before implementing the Bill, perhaps it would be more effective to start with focusing on the girl child to establish a foundation. She repeated her concern that three years would not be sufficient to ensure that the person trained was able to take part in boards, especially if they had no prior experience. She suggested that five years would be sufficient, and to start focusing on the girl child from high school.

Ms Xingwana reiterated that the three years was mainly for the Gender Focal Points at departments, provinces and companies. They were all supposed to come up with a mechanism to train and empower women, as well as creating an environment that empowered women. For instance, in government, the Bill was stipulating that from Director level upwards, there should be a GFP. Some departments had Chief Director levels, and these were the areas where the WEGE Bill sought to promote a 50% female representation. These were decision-making positions. She informed Ms More that there were plenty of women ready to be part of boards. Deloitte and Touche, for example, was already running a programme called “Women on Boards” which trained women with managerial skills so that they could be part of boards. Other companies and organisations such as Women’s Business Association of South Africa were also training business women to sit on boards and prepare them for participation at a decision-making level in various companies. The Minister acknowledged that indeed it was important to prepare girls for leadership roles, but there were already women on the ground who were capable but were not being given opportunities, based on gender.

Ms M Nxumalo (ANC) thanked the Minister for the presentation and raised a concern that many companies or even government departments did not take matters seriously. For instance, they were already not yet compliant with the requirement of 2% staff representation for people with disabilities. As such, she urged the need for a strong law enforcement mechanism for companies and departments to take this law seriously. She suggested that if, after five years,  a company did not comply, there should be serious consequences such as perhaps not renewing licences.

Ms Xingwana agreed with Ms Nxumalo, and said that was why the DWCPD said it would work with other Ministers to enforce the law together. She reminded the Members again that the Bill was “in their court” and if they saw any gaps the Committee should try to close them. The DWCPD would work with various Ministers and other sectors to ensure that this legislation was implemented with the sector-specific own legislation, and she assured Members that there would be a close investigation into enforcement measures, because Various Ministers and sectors already had such measures which the Department could use if companies were not compliant.

Ms Ngcobo stated that when looking at women empowerment, the area of gender equality must also being addressed. It was unfortunate that in the work place, men dominated in most areas. There were still also differences in treatment of male and female children.  

Ms Xingwana responded that the Bill was essentially talking to empowering women, but she did recognise that hand in hand with this also went the need for gender equality, but one should not replace the other. At the work place there were lots of men, hence clause 9 of the Bill called for plans and measures that would eliminate gender discrimination, exploitation of women in the labour market, and also fight against gender based violence. The Bill further expanded on the need to empower women and build capacity in order to empower women in the workplace. For instance, the Bill stipulated that in the first year, companies would invited to specify their plans, measures, and what capacity building programmes they had for women in their companies to be able to move up and be empowered. The companies would be required to give a report on how far they had gone in implementing their plans and achieving their targets towards the 50% representation in the work place. This was just a minimum requirement, and it was recognised that there was no way of achieving gender equality and empowerment immediately.

Ms van der Merwe agreed with what the Minister was saying, but from a practical point of view there were so many companies in South Africa and to get all of them to submit their plans would be a massive task. She wondered, from a logistical point of view, how the Department would manage this task.

Ms Xingwana responded that there were designated public bodies and designated private bodies, and the Department would be delegating certain tasks as it did not have a lot of resources.

The Chairperson thanked the Minister and Members. She acknowledged that it was the first time for the Committee to hear this presentation and reminded members that there was a long process ahead before the Bill could be enacted. She said that, from her own point of view, this Bill was long overdue. The DWCPD was essentially a monitoring department and not the implementing department, and it would have to rely on other departments for information. From now on, departments would be required to de-segregate information, which would make it easier to come up with statistics on women, children and people with disabilities. In addition the Bill would now provide the Minister with authority to ensure that departments were implementing programmes and policies pertaining to women, children and persons with disabilities. The Chairperson agreed with members that indeed there were many pieces of legislation that were not being implemented, but would hopefully be implemented, partly because of the WEGE Bill.

The Chairperson also said that the Committee expected to see the breakdowns for the budget next time the Committee engaged with the department.

Other Committee Business: Fluxman report
Ms van der Merwe asked to raise a matter that was of importance to the Committee. She informed the Committee that she had sent a written question to the Minister for Public Service and Administration, as to whether the Public Service Commission was currently investigating any cases of misconduct, fraud, corruption, nepotism or any maladministration or transgressions against current or former staff members of the DWCPD, emanating from the Fluxman Report. She informed members that the Minister had responded that she was not investigating any. She wanted to bring this response to the attention of the Committee, so that it could be treated with urgency when the Committee returned to Parliament.

Ms Lamoela stated that for a while now, whenever the Committee was trying to bring the Fluxman report to closure, Members had been told that the matter was being handled by the Public Services Commission, yet it now appeared that no such request had been made to the Public Services Commission.

The Chairperson stated that the Committee would write a letter to the Department.

Ms C Diemu (ANC) suggested that there be a deadline included in that letter, to ensure an urgent response.

Ms Lamoela agreed with Ms Diemu, and said that the Department of Public Services and Administration must explain why it was misleading the Committee, because the Committee was under the impression the matter was being investigated.

The Chairperson stated that the letter would be written and it would have to be responded to by the end of February, before the next budget meeting.

Ms van der Merwe reminded the Chairperson that the Committee had not dealt with the matter itself because it was under the impression that it was being handled elsewhere, and suggested that the Department of Public Services and Administration should only be given a week to respond, so that the Committee could urgently deal with the matter, soon after the public hearings on the new Bill.

Consideration and adoption of minutes
Meetings on 18 September 2013
Ms More wanted to know the progress in reference to paragraph 5, on page 3 of the minutes.

The Chairperson responded that the Secretary was yet to write the letter.

The minutes were adopted.

Meeting of 10 October 2013, 16 October 2013
The minutes were adopted, with no amendments.

Meeting of 23 October 2013
The Chairperson stated that on page 2, at line 3, there was a typing error, and the word “electing” should read “acting”. She also added that on page 3, under point 6, the word “acting” should be added.

The minutes were adopted, subject to these amendments.

Meeting of 17 October 2013
The minutes were adopted.

The meeting was adjourned.