DPME, National Youth Development Agency & Statistics SA on Quarter 4 performance

Meeting report

National Youth Development Agency (NYDA): Briefing

Ms Mpumi Mpofu, Director General, DPME, gave an overview of the NYDA’s performance in which she highlighted unemployment among South Africa’s youth as a challenge which the Department acknowledged, especially after carrying out their oversight function over the NYDA. The DPME was committed to supporting the NYDA so that the Department could achieve its objectives. One of the things that the DPME had done in its support was to make recommendations for youth development to be made a budget priority in the context of budget prioritisation pertaining to the mandate paper, which had been discussed in the DPME’s briefing.

The DPME also actively participated in the Presidential Youth Working Group, which was chaired by the Deputy Minister, and part of the responsibilities was to engage stakeholders, including those in the private sector. The Department was also involved in the Youth Employment Accord and the Skills Accord, which were signed by various organisations aimed to improve the placement of young people in jobs, making the economy more sensitive to the employment of young people. The DPME was behind the NYDA in matters such as budget allocation, overall strategy, and the revision of the NYDA Act to facilitate tackling the issue of youth unemployment. The DPME congratulated the NYDA for obtaining yet another clean audit.

Mr Sifiso Mtsweni, Chairperson: NYDA, started reminded the Committee of the appointment of its new board, which took place on 5 May 2017. Since then, the Board had been creating the strategy for this financial year and had also amended its annual performance plan (APP). The Agency’s analysis showed 70% of some 20 million young South Africans were likely to be victims of theft, robbery and other crimes, which was higher than those over 35 years of age. One of its key areas of focus was on how to mobilise young people against crime, especially young females, given the rise in the loss of young females in recent months.

The second issue of focus was that of unemployment, which had risen in the first quarter. This was a problem, when coupled with the fact that youth-headed households stood at 26.7%, and the percentage of young people without matric was close to 60%. The Department of Education was facing challenges such as the right to access, especially in the context of fees, having had to deal with the ‘Fees Must Fall’ protests in the recent past. These were the problem areas facing the youth and the question was, how did the Agency respond to this? The NYDA was present, but the youth did not identify with the organisation.

This had caused the NYDA to shift the focus towards ensuring that it was “available and accessible,” especially to youths in the townships and rural areas. Young people did not know where the branches were, and furthermore, the Agency did not have branches where the young people were. The fact that they had 15 branches in a country that had 54 districts was an anomaly.

So how did the NYDA confront this issue of access to ensure it became more accessible? It currently had funding constraints. The current budget did not allow them to expand their reach, but nonetheless they had embarked on a programme with the support of the executive chairperson to engage in youth dialogues to reach more people. Furthermore, in carrying out its deliberate programme to reach more young people in rural areas, representatives from the Agency had visited eight villages, along with opening two offices, one in Delmas and another in Empangeni, both of which were rural/township areas.

As part of their activities of ‘Youth against Crime,’ they had visited Thembalethu in the Western Cape, and Nyanga, which was a crime hotspot, to talk to young people and tackle issues of how to curb crime. The President had made a call to intensify the National Youth Service Programme, and the NYDA had subsequently set itself a target of recruiting at least one million young people into the programme, to mobilise them around issues of national patriotism and selflessness. The Department had also partnered with the Department of Arts and Culture in a programme whereby young people were involved in putting up the national flag at schools, around buildings and other public spaces which they also ensured were kept clean.

In responding to funding issues, the NYDA planned to establish a youth fund in line with the NYDA Act, which would focus on a skills revolution, especially in light of the fourth industrial revolution. The second aspect was that of the NYDA’s grant fund system, which was currently very popular. This made funds available to help young people with their business ventures. Mr Mtsweni emphasised the fact that the NYDA did not give out loans, but instead issued grants. The call by the Department now was on government and the private sector to invest in this grant to increase the benefit for those with bigger projects.

On the issue of the amendment of the NYDA Act, the Agency said that the NYDA should exist in the provinces and districts. Furthermore, they would be proposing through the amendment of the Act that it became a section 76 entity and not 75.

In conclusion, Mr Mtsweni highlighted that the agency had stabilised and had achieved yet another clean audit, and 100% of their key performance indicators (KPIs).

Mr Waseem Carrim, Chief Financial Officer (CFO), NYDA, briefed the Committee on the Agency’s performance in the last two quarters, and provided a short reflection on the amendments that had been made to the annual performance plan (APP) for 2017/18.

Fourth Quarter 2016/17

In Quarter 4 of 2016/17, the assessment showed that the NYDA had achieved 100% of its key performance indicators (KPI’s) for the previous financial year. This was also the first year that the Department had entered post restructuring after the fundamental restructuring which, among others, had reduced its salary expenditure. It was within this context that they had been able to deliver on all of their KPIs. The NYDA had also hosted the South African Youth Awards for the first time since 2012, recognising outstanding young people in academia and entrepreneurship, arts and culture, sports, health and wellbeing.

The detailed performance report for Quarter 4 highlighted that 698 youth owned enterprises received NYDA grant funding against a target of 629. Just over 63 000 young people aspiring to be entrepreneurs were supported through the NYDA’s business development support services, which was 100 more than targeted. Ten community projects were supported through the NYDA’s grant funding programme against a target of nine. 3 700 jobs were created and sustained through the NYDA’s entrepreneurship programme, against a target of 3 100.

In the area of education and skills development, the Agency had handed over the Second Chance Matric Rewrite Programme to the Department of Basic Education (DBE). The Agency had also supported 444 young people through the Solomon Mahlangu scholarship programme. On young people assisted through group and individual career guidance sessions, the target set was just under 900 000, and they had achieved just over 980 000. The target for the number of young people participating in technical skills programmes had been set at 500, and they had achieved 745 mainly through the NYDA’s partnership with Google, which offered digital skills training to young people in rural areas.

On young people supported through the jobs programme, preparing them for the job and labour market, the target was set at 61 000 and the Agency had managed to achieve 71 000 through partnerships with the Mr Price Group and the Corporate Social Investment (CSI) fund. On facilitating access to health and wellbeing programme, the target had been set at 210 000, and they had achieved almost 350 000.

There had also been significant achievements in the field of knowledge management, the development of the National Youth Employment Plan, the National Youth Service (NYS), partnership with the Department of Correctional Services to support youths in conflict with the law, and support for youths with disabilities through the NYDA business support services and training interventions.

The NYDA’s annual budget for 2016/17 was about R451.7 million, of which they had spent just over R451 million. 13% of the budget had gone towards economic participation, 17% towards education and skills development, 12% towards the NYS, 5% towards service delivery, 2% towards research and policy, 19% towards administration, and 32% towards employee costs.

(See attached report for details)

First Quarter 2017/18

Mr Carrim described some of the key factors that had influenced the NYDA’s board of directors’ vision and strategy for the next three financial years. Transportation remained one of the main drivers of poverty. Young people had to travel long distances to access the NYDA and this had been widely criticised. Another focus was the implementation of the NYS programme and being able to reach the targets set out by the President. The board would also like to focus on cutting edge youth development research, and for the NYDA to lead policy development across government departments to ensure that all policies had a youth element and a youth focus to achieve the demographic dividend among young people in the country.

The Agency would be launching its first mobile outreach vehicle on 11 October in Cape Town. This was a mobile office which could reach the deep-lying rural areas. The NYDA had also relocated its head office operations after the organisation had been restructured, thus reducing the office space leased from over 6 000 square metres to about 2 500 square meters. The directors had taken a decision to rename the head office the “Tsietsi Mashinini House,” after permission was granted by the family of the late struggle hero of 1976. The office would be launched in the coming weeks. The NYDA was ensuring that all NYDA branches were Wi-Fi hotspots that young people could use to access all the services of government. It would also be launching the NYDA mobile application, which meant that young people would be able to access the services of the NYDA remotely through telecommunications services.

For Quarter 1 of the 2017/18 financial year, highlights of the Performance Report were:

• The Agency had met nine out of 10 targets;
• 38 youth-owned enterprises were created through business development services;
• 4 200 beneficiaries were supported with the keys to the fundamentals for success;
• 339 jobs were created and sustained;
• 785 jobs were facilitated through the jobs placement programme;
• Just over 378 000 achieved access to information and awareness creating activities; and
• 17 500 had been involved in the skills development programme.

(See attached document for details)

Discussion

Mr Y Cassim (DA) reminded the Committee of the commitment made by the NYDA that in all of these projects, it had promised to provide details of their quality, and the beneficiaries as well. How could the Committee fully gauge the impact and success or lack thereof that these programmes were having on young people? Regarding the handover of the matric second chance rewrite programme, the Committee did not know what the Department of Basic Education was doing with that now -- how many of those learners who were involved in the programme were actually being assisted and going on to pass their matric? The NYDA still had to be held accountable, especially considering the previous commitments they had made to the Committee.

The second point was on the focus of establishing branches to be accessible. Establishing branches would not necessarily make them more successful, because if Parliament funded them, it was going to cost Parliament a lot of money. How could the NYDA trim its administration and employee expenditure -- which they were making incremental steps towards doing -- while increasing its footprint? His point was that last financial year, 51% of budget went towards administration and employee costs, while 49% was going towards project costs. The shift they had made this year was only a minor 2% change, where 51% of their budget was going towards project costs and 49% towards administration and employee costs. More money had to go towards projects, because young people needed capital and support. At the end of the day, all budgets of government must reduce the bureaucracy component and increase the component that ended up in the hands of young people. Young people wanted to see where they were benefiting, and the argument could be made that having a branch in every single village or township would not necessarily result in them directly benefiting. He acknowledged that progress was being made, but young people on the ground wanted to see how they were benefiting, and that would happen only if more funds were directed at their programmes.

An EFF Member expressed concern over the issue of employing one million young people. How was the NYDA going to do that, especially in light of the upcoming Fourth Industrial Revolution? She also wanted answers on the hosting of breakfasts with stakeholders at lavish hotels.

Ms M Mokause (EFF) said she was concerned because the NYDA delegation before the Committee was not gender sensitive. She asked where all the females were, and whether they were not good enough for the delegation. She also wanted to allay her fears as to whether or not those who led the entity were mainly ANC Youth League members. She asserted that the events led by the NYDA were mainly to campaign for the ruling party. The nine communities they supported had not been defined, and she wanted to know exactly which communities these were, and in which provinces. Furthermore, the Department had gone way above its targets for the first quarter, and she was worried that this encouraged unwarranted expenditure.

Mr S Motau (DA) observed how important it was for the NYDA to clean up its image. Being an inclusive organisation for young people, did it not think that they should be restructuring the image to be seen as an inclusive organisation for all young South Africans, and not just for party-affiliated young people? Another important point concerned it being a performance-based organisation, and if the Board were to miss the target in the first two quarters, what would they then do? How was it going to raise the R1 billion it had said they were going to do, as it was actually a very important target for them to achieve?

Ms W Newhoudt-Druchem (ANC) asked what the 17 research articles mentioned had dealt with, and where the Committee and public could gain access to them. When would the National Youth Development Plan for 2030 be available for people to access?

Ms Z Jongbloed (DA) wanted to know the NYDA had the capacity to fast-track the grant funding applications, and how they ensured sustainable emerging businesses. Coupled with that, who monitored employment opportunities created through grant funding -- was there a record that was kept? To what extent did it use social media to reach young people?

Ms Z Dlamini-Dubazana (ANC) said she liked the idea Ms Mpofu had brought up about going out and finding solutions instead of waiting them. She also recalled Ms V Mente (EFF) suggesting a while back that Members of the Committee submit reports on their constituencies’ progress to the NYDA, because some of them were not based in the cities. An exercise like this was supposed to assist the youths coming from those constituencies. The programme had gone well so far, especially in parts like the Eastern Cape.

NYDA Response

Mr Mtsweni, Chairperson: NYDA, said that every young person in South Africa was in an economic struggle, the ultimate destination being to reach economic liberation, whether through a job or a business. The NYDA was encouraged that the Committee Members were envisaging economic freedom in their lifetime. He regretted that Mr Cassim had departed early, leaving no opportunity for him to respond directly to the Member’s queries.

The NYDA Board had been appointed by the President through a Parliamentary process, so they believed they were in the best place to represent young people. They wanted to see a better future for young people and be a responsive agency for them.

Addressing Mr Cassim’s issue of measuring their successes, he said that on 16 June the NYDA had launched the South African youth awards, where most of their beneficiaries from the system were recognised, and the NYDA ambassadors’ programme, where they took beneficiaries from different communities who then went on to show what the NYDA had done for them. These were 16 young people who travelled with the NYDA. The annual report that they had submitted to Parliament had extensive stories about these young beneficiaries, written by the beneficiaries themselves, so there was empirical evidence of young people who had come through the system and succeeded. The Agency also wanted to put impact assessment tools/mechanisms in place to track the progress of beneficiaries in addition to its ambassadors’ programme. This was so that beneficiaries did not get lost in the system.

Furthermore, the NYDA wanted to look at the legislative framework and assess how to approach the issue of youth development. For example, there were a lot of young people with qualifications, but could not get jobs because they lacked experience. Should experience still be used as a yardstick for entry level jobs? The NYDA thought that this was something that was being used to keep young people outside, and that drastic changes needed to be made -- for example, scrapping experience as an entrance requirement to entry level jobs.

The issue of accessibility of NYDA was an important one. The argument advanced by Mr Cassim about how opening new branches might not solve the problem, was not valid. Young people were saying that they did not want to travel so far to reach the branches of the NYDA. A young person in Plettenberg Bay could not be expected to travel 480km to Cape Town to reach an NYDA branch. On the issue of the branches sitting in malls and being inaccessible to people, the NYDA was saying, let us do a cost analysis. Would it not be better to close down that office in the mall and open two or three other offices where it was cheaper?

Going back to Mr Cassim’s point with regard to the objective of raising R1 billion, the NYDA had recently undertaken a trip to address the issue of how to raise this R1 billion. The Agency had actually signed an MOU with the Chicago Business Chamber, where they had agreed to assist it with programmes and projects that were worth over R500 million, because the NYDA grant programme went up to only R100 000. So the NYDA was already engaging on a national and international level on how to attract funds to better help young people in the country. Furthermore, the NYDA had already secured mentorship for over 50 young people to travel abroad and learn from international business people, as NYDA ambassadors. The Agency had also secured $2 million, which amounted to about R26 million, to assist specific types of projects. The NYDA had also made it a point that they were very serious about financial prudence. It was not just about earning money for the sake of spending it. Whatever cent they spent, there had to be value that the Agency could derive from it.

For clarity, they had not said they were going to employ one million people, but rather that the NYS programmes, together with Department of Arts and Culture (DAC) had to recruit one million young people by 2019. The matter of social media was not foreign to the NYDA. It ran a vibrant Twitter page, a Facebook page, and would be launching a mobile app soon. Their Twitter page had 60 000 followers.

Ms Mokause (EFF) interjected, and repeated that she wanted the cost details for the three breakfast events that the NYDA had held at Fancourt hotel. She was well aware of the events, but she wanted to know the exact amounts spent on the breakfasts when they held these meetings, or “dialogue sessions”.

Mr Mtsweni continued by referring to the NYDA would be launching its mobile truck in October to reach remote areas that they normally did not reach and, in the light of the fourth industrial revolution, the truck had Wi-Fi. They wanted two trucks in every province by the end of 2019 which would be in transit every day, going to different rural areas.

He reaffirmed that the Board did not use events of the NYDA to campaign for any organisation or society. However, members of the Board did belong to organisations and societies, some of which they were leaders of. Thus their responsibilities as members of a political party or society were being misconstrued. He added that the NYDA was so under-funded that there were no resources to abuse anyway.

Dealing with the matter of having exceeded its targets, he said that with all the reports they had submitted, they had also submitted a financial report for which they had received a clean audit.

On the matter of diversity, the NYDA was well represented in terms of female leaders. The deputy chairperson was a female, but she had had to go to Ghana for an NYDA programme.

Mr Carrim continued the NYDA’s response, saying that the Agency would submit proof of compliance with policy regarding the three breakfast events that Ms Mokause had referred to. It was worth noting that those matters had been audited by the Auditor General.

On the issue of the charts which some Members said were unclear, they would submit the details of expenditure that tied in with the charts.

Regarding the curbing of employee costs, which at a stage were close to reaching 50% of their entire budget, it had to be understood that the Agency did not use consultants and thus all work was done internally. This meant that employees were needed to disburse grants and carry out other various functions like mentorship programmes and site visits, and monitor projects. This required human capacity, so that was why employee costs were where they were.

Statistics South Africa: Briefing

Mr Pali Lehohla, Statistician General, Statistics South Africa (Stats SA), briefed the Portfolio Committee on the emerging crisis that Stats SA faced. There was an emerging crisis that needed to be addressed and rather than go into the reports, which they were already well aware of, he chose to rather address the crisis.

Stats SA had delivered the citizen satisfaction survey results, which set the tone by proving that going digital was possible, and also the right way going into the future. Part of the vision was to grow statistics and ensure that the value thereof became more and more visible so that people could appreciate the importance of this organisation. Stats SA had moved into a new building about a year ago and had settled in well. The organisation had also revaluated the consumer price index (CPI) back in January, and of course the legislative reform was in progress.

The Auditor General was important, and it was worth noting that Stats SA had managed to achieve a clean audit, which had become common for the organisation. They knew the laws and applied them rigorously, so if they were going to overspend, they did the right thing by acknowledging that they were going to do so and by alerting the relevant authorities.

Some of the major risks included that of gaps increasing through the number of critical posts in the organisation left vacant, as well as a starvation of resources. It was public knowledge what allocations had been made by the Treasury. The question was, why was Stats SA an outlier in terms of budget allocation?

Coming to the Estimates of National Expenditure (ENE) cuts, in the first year (2017/18) the cut was R196 million, in 2018/19 it was R180 million, and in 2019/20 it was R123 million. The reality of the situation was that they could not afford the warm bodies that they currently had. This led to retrenchment and caused unnecessary panic in the organisation. The critical posts gaps were increasing, with examples of Chief Directors having resigned, which negatively impacted on the products of Stats SA. Of course, the organisation could not fund critical legally or contractually binding responsibilities, so they were most likely to face litigation if they did not meet their obligations. The consequences were that the organisation could not afford the warm bodies they were left with, critical posts gaps were increasing and staff would go on strike if told that they could not be paid.

Dr Lehohla expressed concern about this situation leading to the downfall of Stats SA, where all the work they had done up to this point would be rendered fruitless. The organisation had begun to eat into its own capital. It was losing intellectual capital. The organisation had initially requested funds amounting to R1 billion to run a community survey, and Treasury had approved R500 million, which had then caused them to consider the move to technology. However, doing that would not be a once-off matter. The organisation would also have to run parallel surveys while moving towards a more technology-based organisation so that when 1 January 2018 arrived, they could make the full transition. Without the money that they needed, they were not going to be able to achieve that.

This meant that Stats SA would first have to revert back to being a high cost structure, which they could not afford. Secondly, they would not be able to go electronic because it would mean that they had not run parallel surveys. They were in a fix. Using electronic devices was advantageous, because one could get year quotes and collect data against those quotes. If one did not have that, then one had to use data maps, and to use those one had to visit the site three times, which increased the cost drivers. Sticking with paper meant slower production, because it could take up to a year to retrieve and distribute data through those methods as opposed to technology-based data which could be reproduced for distribution within six weeks, so it made no sense why this should not be supported.

The specific consequences were that if the gross domestic product (GDP) could not be measured appropriately, then people would not know whether the economy was growing or not. If they did not run the income and expenditure survey and the living conditions survey, the country would never get poverty indicators, which was detrimental to the planning process. If they did not run labour surveys, they would not know where employment stood – one might be aware of the fact that unemployment was high, but one had to deepen one’s understanding of what was driving it to be so high. It one did not have population estimates by province, one would not know how to implement the division of revenue to support each province.

The overarching sentiment of the Statistician General was that the organisation was “under siege”, and that a drastic intervention was needed in order to save it.

Discussion

Ms Dlamini-Dubazana shared the sentiments of the Statistician General. She agreed that there was a real problem, and called on Members of the Committee for their urgent reaction to it by requesting the Chairperson to write a letter to the DPME Minister, Mr Jeff Radebe, so that when he approached the Adjustment Committee on the following day, he would be well aware and “alive” to the concerns raised by the Statistician General and further expressed by the Committee.

Mr Motau supported the proposal for an urgent intervention resolution, observing that any intervention would help at this point. He went on to highlight the achievements of the Statistician General over the past 17 years, pointing out he had managed to raise the profile of statistics in the country and make people more important aware of their value. His only regret was that maybe the executive was not as well aware and alive to the challenges facing the organisation, which was now facing a crisis.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen also supported the motion for an urgent intervention by the Committee. with nothing more to add.

Ms Jongbloed added her voice to the request to write a letter to the Minister.

Ms D van der Walt (DA) also supported the motion.

The Chairperson agreed with the Committee Members, and commented that in the context of the report itself, there was not much that the Committee could have engaged on besides focusing their energy on ensuring that the issues raised by the Statistician General, which were not new, could find their way to Minister Radebe and the Adjustment Committee. She confirmed that she would act on the matter and have the letter sent to the Minister as quickly as possible.

Department of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation (DPME): Briefing

Ms Mpumi Mpofu, Director General, DPME, said the Department’s functions covered a broad range of areas. The fourth quarter report identified a number of issues from recommendations made by the last Portfolio Committee. Under administration, 13 of the 16 targets had been achieved, two were partially achieved and one was not achieved. The final strategic plan and APP had been tabled to Parliament by the due date. The fourth quarterly progress reports had been produced and submitted to the executive authority and National Treasury within 30 days of the end of the quarter. All valid invoices had been paid within 30 days, and a 10% average vacancy rate was achieved at the end of the financial year. The Workplace Skills Plan (WSP) had been approved by the DG by 30 April 2016, and 131% of targets in the WSP had been achieved by the end of the financial year. All senior management service (SMS) members had disclosed their financial interests via the e-disclosure system. Other achievements highlighted involved ICT systems standards, business application plans, annual risk assessments, quarterly progress reports and strategic internal audit plans.

(See attached document for details)

 Discussion

Mr Motau asked whether the question based on the budget mandate could be “put to bed” -- that this was not about the Presidency taking over the responsibilities of the Treasury, but rather that it was part of the responsibilities of the National Planning Commission (NPC), in line with the National Development Plan (NDP).

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen noticed that the other departments had “targets achieved” and “targets not achieved,” but the DPME had added deviations from the targets, so what was the real reason for so many targets being deviated from. Why had the issue of human resources (HR) equity not been touched on in the presentation?

Ms Jongbloed wanted to know where the DPME published the reports of all 14 of their outcomes, and how the Portfolio Committee could access them. She also asked where the National School of Governance fitted in with the development of newly appointed DGs, as well as how far the NYDA Act review process was.

Ms Van der Walt questioned the need for 94 new posts in the Department, highlighting the fact that with all due respect, the DPME was not as important as health or education. How were they going to contribute to saving if they were going to be spending money on filling those 94 new posts?

Ms Dlamini-Dubazana wanted clarity on whether the DG was saying the DPME needed legislation to make sure that the allocation of funds was prioritised to the country’s needs. She also asked about their under-spending, and where the leftover R16 million had gone. Had it been sent back to the Treasury, or not?

The Chairperson also requested a roadmap of the DPME’s activities, because even when proposing a new act, an organisation still went through consultation and deliberation activities, so she wanted to have a clearer idea of what would be taking place in the coming weeks and months.

She also responded to Ms Van der Walt’s question regarding the 94 new posts, saying that it had been a request that was made two years back. The rationale had been that the DPME could not fulfil its core mandate because of being significantly under-funded, as well as being a relatively new and small department.

DPME Response

On the budget mandate issue, Ms Mpofu confirmed that it was indeed the NPC which, in its appointment by the President, had six functions. One of these was still to advise the President on planning matters and in the execution of that particular mandate, they had suggested that what seemed to be a challenge, was better alignment between the NDP and budget allocations. What was missing was a mechanism that allowed for a prioritisation which focused departmental budget allocations to the outcomes of the NDP. Countries which had NDPs generally required this instrument to help sharpen the planning process. In places like Malaysia, the Philippines, and other countries where they had this budget prioritisation paper, it did not speak to money and did not attempt to replace a budget process --it simply indicated that on the basis of the NDP, the evaluations and the monitoring, these were the areas that would need to be prioritised. There was no contestation between the DPME and National Treasury about their roles, and in fact the Treasury was very excited about this. This process had to be done thoroughly, prior to the budget process.

Furthermore, the Department had also created instruments that said that government must not spend on areas that were not priorities, and must look at reprioritising high expenditure on consultants and litigation. These were measures meant to save money. On whether a mandate paper would be linked to consequences, she said it had already happened, and the DPME had just gone through the process with National Treasury. Government departments had to be sensitive to the need to know where money was going to, and that it had been reprioritised appropriately, as well as key instruments that assessed how well a department used its budget so that it could be determined whether they should be getting more or less next year.

On the issue of deviation against targets, the reality was that the real work of the DPME was about servicing other departments. The majority of deviations were in areas where they serviced other departments. The DPME was in great demand, so they were starting to be more ambitious. Government called on the Department to help them evaluate and deal with challenges with programmes.

On the issue of why they had 94 additional posts, it was because the government wanted the DPME to do more, so they had to grow their capacity to meet demands.

On the issue of equity, this had been taken out of the presentation in order to focus on targets achieved and missed. The figures would be forwarded to the Member.

Regarding the capacities of DGs and the role of the National School of Government (NSG), the NSG was intended for newly appointed people, and this was an important area of compliance for the DPME. The DGs tended to be quite busy in the initial periods, and the Department was still trying to work around this.

On the review of legislative process, they were dealing with a comprehensive piece of legislation which was going to impact on all three levels of government. The suggestion was that it was going to ensure much better coordination of the functions of government. The biggest advantage was that they want it to be backed up by real knowledge management and information systems pooled into one. This would lead to a better alignment of plans based on real issues, such as climate change, changes in household incomes, and population.

The CFO responded to the question about the R16 million, stating that the money would be going back to the Treasury.

The meeting was adjourned.