South African Police Service stability and restructuring

Meeting report

Minister Bheki Cele, accompanied by his Deputy Minister, informed the Committee that he would leave the meeting early at 2.30pm.

The Chairperson replied that this gave the Committee enough time to interact with the Minister. She referred to the letter from the House Chairperson, Mr Frolick, indicating that the Committee had to lead an inquiry with other Committees in the Peace and Stability Cluster from both Houses. The next morning would hold a joint meeting on this. The entire security cluster, the Ministers of Police, State Security and Defence had been invited to the meeting. The Committees would allow the security cluster to deliver one presentation. The House Chairperson had consulted with the House Chairperson of Committees in the National Council of Provinces, Mr Nyambi, who had agreed to the joint inquiry. The terms of reference would be presented tomorrow.

The Chairperson would not allow questions on the Durban and Gauteng unrest in today’s meeting since the inquiry would deal with that matter in detail. The Committee was expected to complete the inquiry and submit a joint report by the time Parliament reconvened on 17 August for the third term. That gave the Committee two weeks for the inquiry. If the Committee did not complete its work it would request an extension from the House Chairperson. The Committee Report on the KZN/Gauteng would be presented to the Committee as soon as it was ready.

The Chairperson said that the Minister of Police could introduce the presentation.

South African Police Service on stability and restructuring
Minister Cele said that the presentation would be led by the SAPS National Commissioner.

Gen Khehla Sitole, SAPS National Commissioner, introduced the SAPS delegation. He indicated that Major General Rabie would deliver the presentation.

Major Gen Leon Rabie, SAPS Head: Strategic Management, noted challenges to organisational stability included personnel exiting SAPS which lost 32 662 through natural attrition from 2016/17 to 2020/21. In the same period, it had employed 20 959 employees (new recruits and lateral entrants) resulting in a net loss of 11 703 members. Inadequate service delivery by government departments resulted in the over-extension of SAPS operation obligations and diverted resources away from policing functions. There were increased demands for the establishment of specialised policing capabilities in response to emerging threats. These threats included: taxi-violence, illegal mining, gangsterism, organised crime, and widespread public unrest. SAPS was responding strategically these factors impacting organisational stability to ensure effective mandate execution.

SAPS had embarked on a restructuring and rationalisation process with the aim to redirect resources to frontline services. In the newly approved SAPS organisational structure, the police districts were aligned with the municipal districts in each province. The organisational structure of divisions at national level were revised. The guiding principles applied to the restructuring focussed on the functional dimensions of strategy, policy and planning; operations and coordination; and support. The organisational structure must enable mandate execution and improvement of service delivery. There needed to be resourcing of frontline capabilities in terms of minimum requirements and the enhancement of specialised capabilities. SAPS would consult with all stakeholders, including line managers and organised labour.

Historical context
The previous National Commissioner was suspended on 14 October 2015, following a Farlam Commission of Enquiry recommendation. Two Acting National Commissioners were in office for from 14 October 2015 to 21 November 2017. The current National Commissioner was appointed on 22 November 2017.

Initiatives implemented to stabilise the leadership
Establishment of a climate of integrity through the eradication of corruption and criminality within Senior Management, through dismissal:
• A total of 12 senior managers (level 14 and above) have been dismissed, following department investigations, during the period 1 April 2016 to 30 June 2021.

Top-heavy, inflated SAPS organisational structure:
• Restructuring process, in consultation with Safety and Security Bargaining Council (SSSBC), was initiated to cascade resources to lower organisational levels, in particular station level.

Rationale for restructuring
• National Treasury directive to scale down on compensation. Significant cut in the compensation budget allocation over the MTEF.
• Alignment of organisational and functional structures with strategic and operational priorities. Rationalisation of post requirements.
• Optimal functioning of the SAPS as envisaged in the Turnaround Vision.
• SONA commitment to capacitate frontline capabilities (local level).
• Alignment with “District Development Model” and other departments’ service models.

Current status of implementation
Following the placement of Deputy National Commissioners, a National Panel was established comprising Deputy National Commissioners, Provincial Commissioners (ad hoc representation) and representatives from organised labour to inter alia:
• Make recommendations to the National Commissioner on the placement of Divisional Commissioners and National Component Heads; and
• In consultation with the Provincial Commissioner, make recommendations to National Commissioner on the placement of Deputy Provincial Commissioners.
These recommendations were currently being consulted with the Minister of Police.

Discussion
The Chairperson asked the Police Minister if he would like to make additional comments.

Minister Bheki Cele replied that he would leave the presentation as made and would wait for the questions. There had been many debates among the police on this. Some issues were developing such as the ratio of police to the population and the improvement of police station security. For now, he would allow for questions and then the police would respond.

The Chairperson restricted the first round of questions to one per member for the 11 Members present. They would be able to ask more questions in the second round.

Mr A Whitfield (DA) appreciated the critical presentation on this burning issue which Parliament needed to attend to which was the crisis in SAPS. He asked Gen Sitole about the SAPS instability saying one element that was missing from the presentation was political interference. If one looked at the appointments of SAPS National Commissioners over time it pointed to political interference or political preference by different interests. In January a judgement was handed down against SAPS National Commissioner Sitole on the ‘spy grabber’ device. The SAPS National Commissioner and two of his deputies had recently lost their appeal in the Supreme Court of Appeal. It was important for this Committee to know if disciplinary action would be taken against the SAPS National Commissioner and his deputies? Or in the interest of SAPS integrity, stability and credibility would Gen Sitole and deputies resign due to the judgement and appeal dismissal?

Rev K Meshoe (ACDP) said his question had to do with the safety of the police. During the riots and looting some police withdrew from the mobs. When it was asked why the police were withdrawing they said that they were not allowed to shoot at protestors even those who were armed. Some police said it was difficult for them to be harsh because they were using public transport. Protestors threatened that they would "get" the police officers on their way home as they knew where the police officers stayed. Under such conditions how could the police be effective when they knew they were so vulnerable? Police were not allowed to shoot even when they were shot at. The police still had to travel with the people who had looted and threatened them.

Mr O Terblanche (DA) said that the presentation dealt with numbers and structures. He wanted to question 'stability' from a different angle. Stability could mean a lot of things. His definition of stability meant that the police were able to ensure safety and security. Was the presentation saying that the police were still able to fulfil its responsibilities in section 205 of the Constitution? SAPS dismally failed in protecting people and their property.

Mr A Shaik Emam (NFP) asked the National Commissioner who was responsible for appointments at lower spheres of governance in the police force, particularly in the provincial structures? Was whoever was responsible performing their duties? If not, why not?

Ms Z Majozi (IFP) said if there were one police officer to 234 people, it raised a concern. Safety and security were one of the priorities of government. Protection and safety of people was of paramount importance. Was the application process for those who needed to be appointed going to take place? What was going to happen during this level three lockdown? If the budget kept on decreasing then how would the police be able to fulfil their mandate? The Committee needed to get clarity on that and see how it could help. She agreed with Rev Meshoe. How was it possible for one police officer to service more than 200 people? It was not workable. Those were her concerns. As a Committee, everything should not be thrown at SAPS. The Committee needed to look at other avenues to ensure that SAPS did not get a budget decrease but rather a budget increase as safety and security was a priority of government.

Mr H Shembeni (EFF) was concerned about the intelligence division. The presentation showed that there had been close to ten Acting Divisional Commissioners in the past ten years. That meant that each year someone was being nominated to act in that division. Intelligence was a very important division. What was happening in that division? Were capable people not being appointed? Currently, was a permanent head of intelligence appointed in that division?

Mr E Maphatsoe (ANC) appreciated the presentation but it did not really speak to stability within SAPS. It showed that the National Commissioner wanted to reduce the top-heavy structure to a manageable level as action was mainly on the ground. SAPS was moving to a district level which was good. He agreed with Mr Shembeni's concern about intelligence. What was seen in the media had not been presented to the Committee. How was it possible to have ten Acting Divisional Commissioners in a very sensitive portfolio? This was cause for concern and the Committee wanted to understand it. The Committee was not there to get figures as it knew the budget had been cut. The Committee supported the Department and would lobby for it. The Committee hoped that after these recent events that the government would take the Committee recommendations very seriously.

The sooner and faster the Minister and National Commissioner worked in restructuring and appointing permanent members, the better. The National Commissioner was nowhere to be seen during the unrest. Was he not allowed to be in the media during the uprising? One saw the SANDF Chief openly speaking to the media and issuing orders. He had not seen SAPS Commissioner Sitole addressing the media. The Minister needed to play his role and the National Commissioner needed to be allowed to play his role. The sooner SAPS finalised restructuring then there would be better stability in SAPS. If the approval of permanent posts took long then SAPS would be destabilised. It was a problem.

Mr Maphatsoe said the Committee needed a proper report on the spy grabber. He agreed with Mr Whitfield that the grabber was cause for concern. In the next meeting the report on the grabber matter should be presented. The media had spoken about the instability in SAPS. Stability needed to be corrected within SAPS. It was a matter of urgency.

The Committee supported SAPS that the budget should not be cut but should be increased. The statistics shown today had the Committee worrying. Police personnel was decreasing and criminals had intelligence. Criminals could read that manpower was very weak just as had happened over the past week. The Committee report would identify lack of police manpower, the budget cuts and natural attrition. The sooner appointments were made and the separation of powers was clarified, the better because the Minister and National Commissioner needed to work together.

Ms P Faku (ANC) said that the Committee could identify the budget concern and the other factors SAPS was struggling with but if there was dysfunctionality in SAPS, no amount of budget would ensure things were done correctly. The Committee should hold the Executive accountable and ensure what was supposed to happen within SAPS was done. An assessment was being done which needed to be done thoroughly.

The SAPS National Commissioner needed to do that assessment and present it to the Committee. Currently, he had 200 generals under him. During this period where had these generals been? Do they have the necessary skills to be generals? If these people were on the ball then South Africa would not have faced what was faced over the past two weeks. If there was dysfunctionality at the top then people at the bottom were not going to take SAPS seriously. A police station was supposed to be a place that everyone feared but people easily attacked police stations. What she heard in the presentation gave her stress. Did the Minister think that the current SAPS capacity would be enough if there was a second crisis?

Ms Faku pointed to Crime Intelligence and noted two people in acting positions. Why had permanent staff not been appointed? It was important that the acting positions stop. The National Commissioner needed to take full responsibility and appoint people. There could not be acting positions because these people would not take responsibility. People needed to be given the responsibility to lead Crime Intelligence. It was a critical component within SAPS and it had acting people. She was pleased that a Communication Head had been appointed. She hoped he understood how critical communication was within SAPS. This was an area where SAPS was lacking. SAPS was doing a lot of good work but only the bad was heard about. People needed to know both about the strengths and weaknesses of SAPS. Every day she heard negative news about SAPS which was not good.

Ms Faku said the Committee needed to receive timeframes for the assessment. The Committee needed to ensure that SAPS was functioning from the top. It was possible for things to be done correctly. The Executive and the National Commissioner needed to work together to ensure that people who held positions had the necessary skills. She noted the salaries of the generals. If she were the Minister, she would fire some of these generals who had been caught sleeping on the job during the past week. She did not want to point fingers. That is why she directed her questions at the Minister and National Commissioner.

Dr P Groenewald (FF+) said earlier this year in the meeting where the budget was discussed, he had complained that 83% of the total budget was for personnel salaries and benefits. This should not be the case. Had the police applied its mind to how it would solve this problem? How was SAPS going to use the R250 million extra funding received yesterday from the Minister of Finance?

Ms M Molekwa (ANC) acknowledged the challenges raised in the presentation. The functionality of SAPS could not be overemphasised. Committee members had raised concerns that needed to be attended to urgently. According to the 2021 Crime Index, South Africa was rated the third most dangerous country in the world according to crime rate. As South Africa was in economic recovery would this fact not threaten investors? If the crime rate was uncontrollable then no one would want to take the risk of investing in South Africa. Was there a plan in place to ensure that uncontrollable crime was dealt with urgently? Could SAPS provide the Committee with a process plan with time frames to deal with this crime as per the National Development Plan to ensure that South Africa becomes a safer country?

The Chairperson said that there had been eight Commissioners, acting or appointed, since 2009. This had created upheaval and the instability that was seen. South Africa had almost 200 generals, 600 brigadiers and collectively they earned R1 billion. The Minister had said that for the last two years the police had not taken in 7000 new recruits because of public sector budget cuts. Next year there would again be a drop by 7000. It meant that 21 000 new recruits would not be brought in. These were boots on the ground who had to do the actual work. There were over 200 generals. If this structure was so top-heavy then how many of these generals were leaving? How many Deputy National Commissioners were leaving? What was the status of these appointments and the vacancies experienced? The assassination of Colonel Kinnear had brought into sharp focus the possible collusion between police members and criminals against other police officers investigating that collusion. The media was full of allegations of police complicity in the murder.

The Committee received monthly reports but those reports did not reveal much and the Committee was not getting to the bottom of the investigation. There were allegations that individuals were charged and investigated for police complicity with gangsters. There had been several court challenges to decisions of the National Commissioner by senior SAPS members. There were campaigns by civil society organisations to protest the dismissal of some SAPS members and charges brought against some of them. There was a clear picture of instability in SAPS. SAPS lost several court cases such as the Forensic Data Analysts (FDA) matter. She did not understand why SAPS was losing all these court cases. Why was SAPS not implementing the FDA court or the McBride court decisions? The Chairperson had not received a single SAPS report on the McBride court decision and how it would be implemented.

The SAPS presentations were always late. She requested that the presentations arrive seven days prior to the Committee meeting. She acknowledged that the police had not been informed timeously about the urgent meetings called during the July recess. The Committee, however, could not receive the presentation after 4pm the day before the meeting. When would Members have an opportunity to study the presentation? This seriously undermined the Committee’s oversight role. The Department and the Minister were undermining the Committee in this respect. If the presentations were not sent to the Chairperson timeously then she would not allow the Department to present in the meeting. If meetings were called at short notice then the Committee could negotiate when the presentations would be sent in. Committee members had blamed the Chairperson for late presentations and for SAPS not responding in writing to their questions. She would not take the blame for the weaknesses in the Ministry and the Office of the National Commissioner.

The Minister and National Commissioner needed to be reminded that they account to the Committee. The Portfolio Committee had been completely undermined and disrespected in these processes. If there was any form of inquiry then she would have to account as Chairperson why she had not held the police accountable and why the Committee had not done its oversight work. At the end of the day this Committee would be represented by the Chairperson.

SAPS response
Gen Khehla Sitole, SAPS National Commissioner, said he would try and provide the strategic responses. On the judgement, he and the two Deputy National Commissioners were cleared by the Inspector General’s investigation on that particular matter. This matter had been investigated by the IG. The court judgement was based on the classification and declassification of documents. The evidence by the IG was not taken into account and no grabber was purchased. There was no procurement at all. The matter was still on review.

On whether he and the Deputy National Commissioners would resign, Gen Khehla Sitole replied that it was premature for them to resign.

On concerns that SAPS members were not allowed to shoot, he had pointed this out to the Minister as an area that required attention. The current laws and human rights prescripts, including public perceptions, were heavy on the police. The police were handicapped from acting. While the police were going to be trained and prepared to handle these situations without maximum use of force, the laws handicapping the police needed to be attended to. These laws created trauma.

On the fulfilment of section 205, a decision was taken that policing numbers had to be scaled down despite the growing population. The presentation clearly showed that SAPS was expected to police an increasing population of 59 million people with 162 000 officers. This handicapped the fulfilment of section 205. The police were being judged on the more recent incidents when the public order police (POP) had been scaled down from 12 000 to 4000. At the moment public order policing was at about 4500. It ended up again with the depreciation of the capital strategic assets which affected air support and armoured vehicles.

The air fleet had collapsed. If someone wanted air support then it was not possible to fly more than five helicopters nationally. In 2009/10 the police could fly up to 14 in the air. Nine had been grounded for more than three years. There was quite a large fleet of armoured vehicles that were grounded. SAPS was working on getting new Nyalas. SAPS could no longer fulfil the mandate 100%. SAPS was handicapped. There had been a growing number of police stations but the numbers of SAPS members did not grow. SAPS still had a challenge in repairing some police stations. Spatial development has seen a considerable growth that required more police. SAPS was trying to improve the ratio and scale down the top-heavy structure of generals and employ more constables. That was what was needed at the present moment so that there were more boots on the ground. That process was in progress.

SAPS could not argue the budget cuts any further because there were fiscal constraints experienced by the country. SAPS needed to look at what it could do within its budget. The appointments made at lower levels were under the authority of the Provincial Commissioners in terms of the delegation of powers. There were certain appointments that were then ratified by the National Commissioner at national level especially the appointment of senior managers.

The Provincial Commissioners had sufficient authority to effect those appointments. At the present moment the Provincial Commissioners were doing this. Those appointments had to be done within the scope of the available budget. If there was no budget then the appointments could not proceed.

SAPS was handicapped in increasing police numbers. The training of the few that SAPS could employ was handicapped by the pandemic. SAPS had resorted to a force multiplier approach. SAPS had introduced a reservist personnel plan and wanted to go to the maximum recruitment of reservists. The Committee could assist SAPS when it did community mobilisations so that SAPS could get more reservists. SAPS introduced the concept of the 'community in blue’ which was being invested in so that SAPS could support the enhancement of visibility. Since there was a higher demand for visibility as it was something that could make a difference to the current state of crime, SAPS needed to invest in technology. SAPS needed to invest in the safer city technology. Looking at the environmental design, SAPS needed drone policing. The Committee needed to support SAPS so that it could get more investment in technology. An increase in technology could would be of great assistance. SAPS was trying to respond to geographical spatial development and online spatial development was growing rapidly. More of the population was using online sites. The modus operandi there was advanced. The criminals online did not deal with small money. It was very serious. SAPS needed to prepare itself and that required more investment in technology.

On generals having skills or not, the generals were taken through various levels of training through their stages of growth up to their current level. Presently, SAPS had decided to place the generals according to their skills because not all of them had been accurately placed according to their skills. SAPS had looked into strategic deployment and introduced the restructuring process.

To respond to the current situation, SAPS did not necessarily need generals. SAPS needed more constables to enhance the production level. As a result, during the restructuring there were those sections that SAPS was declaring redundant. One component of Deputy National Commissioners, the management intervention, was closed down. SAPS did not replace those generals and froze that budget and took it down to recruitment. This was done so SAPS could have more constables. That process was continuing until SAPS was left with a reasonable number necessary to run a macro function.

Gen Sitole said he had issued a directive to the Integrated Resources Committee to work on striking a balance on personnel costs. The personnel budget was supposed to 75% not 83%. That process was linked to the restructuring and the CFO was working on it together with Integrated Resources Committee.

He agreed that the crime index was causing a threat to investment. It does not show a true reflection of what South Africa is. It was derived from the safer city index. Investors did their own research. Within the country SAPS had introduced its own approach in the national safer cities strategy. A committee had been set up and it included the private sector and other stakeholders. They were working on the development of a national safer city index. It would include the crime index as aligned to South Africa’s crime statistics. That process was on at the present moment.

There were generals that were leaving and that was linked to the restructuring process and there were ones that stayed. SAPS had a recruitment backlog. The cause was twofold. One reason was the scaling down. The second was the delay in basic training caused by Covid-19. As the country was moving towards level three he was sure that this would improve.

SAPS had introduced the Independent Police Investigative Directorate (IPID) into the investigation about Colonel Kinnear. IPID was in progress with the investigation. There were investigations by the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (DPCI). The internal investigation was continuing to deal with this. He apologised for the late submission of the presentation. SAPS would take the direction from the Chairperson and comply fully.

Maj Gen Puleng Dimpane, SAPS CFO, said that the R250 million funding announced yesterday for SAPS was for the deployment of police members during the unrest and the operation undertaken. Most of the costs SAPS incurred were unforeseen. As a result Treasury had made the R250 million available. It would mostly be utilised for special daily allowances paid to members as well as meal allowances, accommodation and additional resources that were identified to strengthen the resources of the members. There was some reservist deployment which needed to be paid as well as nightshift and service allowance. SAPS had made estimates. When SAPS presented to the Committee it had estimated these expenses to be about R350 million. SAPS would allocate this R250 million to those items incurred during this particular deployment of its members.

Gen Sitole replied that the restructuring committee had recommended that the current Acting Lt Gen Yolisa Mokgabudi be appointed Crime Intelligence head. He had ratified its recommendation. The matter would be finalised immediately after it had been escalated to the Minister.

Minister's response
In response to her complaints, Minister Bheki Cele said that no one was allowed to undermine the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee. He understood parliamentary structures and how they worked. He granted that there were problems of work inefficiency but not undermining of the Committee. The flow of reports from the Department to the Committee gave some of the Ministry officials real problems. The Office of the Chairperson was highly respected.

In reply to Mr Whitfield, he knew nothing about the case and he knew nothing about what was decided in court. He knew nothing about the appeal made to the court. He knew nothing about the second appeal that was made to the Supreme Court. He knew nothing about the results. He only heard yesterday, by chance, that this decision was taken on 30 June. The less he spoke about it, the better for him. The only problem he had was that some of these decisions were written with costs. It was not clear to him whose costs these were. A senior official would have to sign off on these legal costs. He had signed nothing because he knew nothing. He was told via rumours that the legal fees were about R1.8 million. He knew nothing about the matter.

He replied to Rev Meshoe’s concerns about police welfare and orders not to shoot. The National Commissioner had responded to that question. It was a difficult matter because of Marikana and the Farlam Commission. The police were in a dilemma. There needed to be discussion about how police should behave in these circumstances. There were cases in Gauteng when the unrest started where police were pushed around, sometimes by foreign nationals, when they had firearms on them. Police were taken by criminals and put into the back of a van. In the North West the bodies of two police officers were found in the back of the police van. Police were highly regulated, highly restricted all at the expense of their work and their own lives. Those were the restrictions that were there. The Committee needed to look at the Farlam Commission report and what it said. Police stood alone when they tried to defend themselves.

He agreed that most police stayed in townships. There was a transport policy where the police had to be transported to where they stayed. That could be explained to the Committee. He agreed that police welfare was often not taken seriously by many people. The legislature, the Human Rights Commission, NGOs did not believe that the police needed to protect and be safe themselves. He agreed with Mr Terblanche that to protect, investigate, uphold and enforce the law was the basic job of the police as described in the Constitution. There were other factors that needed to work that was above the legislative framework when it came to policing. Part of policing was visibility and police numbers.

The Farlam Commission report provided a number of 12 000 public order policing (POP) members to be able to police the population. Currently there was 5 000. SAPS did not have money for equipment. Perhaps there would be a platform to talk more about these issues. Police protecting property then suffered. Police needed to guard against fatalities as they implemented their work. That was one story that could be told about these protests in Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal. Police tried to save lives and found that they were undermined because they were in the quagmire of not being able to shoot and do their work. There were questions that needed to be answered by SAPS. For example, did the police use the maximum equipment that was there or not?

The supply of equipment was improving but still giving the police many problems. SAPS supply chain management did provide a problem. There were inadequacies in supply chain management for DNA sampling and things like helicopters. Some items were not signed off in the supply chain and were allowed to collapse. Supply chain management was a major problem. SAPS had spoken about it time and again.

He heard that the National Commissioner had finalised the Crime Intelligence head appointment. He was not sure about the matter. The police leadership would debate the matter. It was unfortunate that the SAPS National Commissioner announced it to the Committee first.

The Minister would have a meeting with the Commissioner on this matter. One major problem, if the appointment of Lt Gen Mokgabudi was signed, was that there was a matter still in court with the former head, Lt Gen Peter Jacobs. Until that matter was resolved and the court told the police what to do then there could be a problem with that appointment. The court might come back and tell SAPS that they should take Lieutenant Gen Jacobs back. He was jittery about finalising these matters when the court process was not finalised. There were other court processes that affected the restructuring. One of them related to the internal audit. It would be difficult to reach finality until those matters were finalised in court.

There was a lot of exchange of letters between the Minister and the National Commissioner especially on Crime Intelligence matters that the Minister hoped would be finalised on Monday 2 August. There had been a lot of leakages of Department matters and of the correspondence between the Minister’s Office and the Commissioner’s Office. It had been really worrying that these two high offices could not have the luxury of corresponding without matters being exposed and leaked even before they were finalised or discussed. That was one thing that needed to be worked on. The Minister said that the National Commissioner was not prohibited from making statements or to hold interviews. It was completely of the Commissioner’s own accord if he wanted to make public statements or not. The Minister did not have the power to tell the Commissioner to sit at home. From his side there was absolutely no prohibition on the Commissioner.

The Minister replied that there was currently not enough capacity within SAPS. That could be explained in terms of figures, equipment and finances. A Committee member had said that if things were not in order at the top level then even if money was put into SAPS, it would not work. He did not agree with that. The Minister said that he and the National Commissioner were not friends. They did not drink coffee together. He assured the Committee that they did work together. The two of them called each other daily to ask questions and discuss matters. In the course of that work there were things that they did not agree upon but it was not animosity. The two of them were not fighting. He assured the Committee that he and the National Commissioner worked together. There might be things that were not agreed upon as the accounting officer and executive authority. He disagreed that there was chaos and that the two of them did not work together.

The Minister replied that the money for compensation was 78% and not 83%. He agreed that it was high. He wanted to put the matter up for debate that South Africa was ranked third for high crime. He recalled the concerns that the World Cup could not be held in South Africa because all the teams and tourists were going to be butchered. That did not happen. After that World Cup South Africa had a very large number of tourists. Tourists continued to come to South Africa up until Covid-19 and were not deterred by crime. Crime had been used by the world as an economic blockade against certain countries. It has been used as propaganda especially when it came to tourism and investment. He wanted this to be discussed more broadly. The city of Rio de Janeiro received praise all the time. People spoke of the beautiful women and beaches. When one visits there the officials say that one cannot make use a camera because of the agreement with drug lords. There would never be a situation here of an agreement between SAPS and South African drug lords. No one heard of those things. One only heard about the beautiful city and it was a beautiful city but inside the favelas life stopped. He did not agree that South Africa be used by such economic syndicates to shut down tourism here. He agreed that crime in South Africa was not good but doubted that the ranking given by these 'syndicate countries' was accurate. He had visited London and requested to visit Brixton and the driver refused to take him there. If anyone went there, they went at their own risk. Those were the things that no one heard about. He was not saying there was no crime or that it was not serious. However South Africans should guard against being run over by these 'syndicates' competing for investments and tourism.

The Chairperson thanked the Minister for the detailed responses.

Further questions
Dr Groenewald said he did not receive an answer about what was being done about personnel costs being 83% of the total budget. If he heard correctly, the R250 million was for deployment, special allowances and care of SAPS members. The police were entitled to their allowances. However, it did not answer if SAPS was applying its mind to the problem of 83% of the total police budget being used for operational use, not for equipment. He would have expected something was being done about it. He wanted the Committee to request SAPS to bring a comprehensive budget on their equipment, training and operational needs essential to ensure safety and security. SAPS needed to provide that so the Committee could make a decision about increasing the budget and for what it would be used.

It was quite disturbing to read in the media that in Gauteng there were over 300 police vehicles but 50% of them were not operational. He had seen many media reports about communities where the community got involved and replaced car batteries and repaired tyres. He did not receive an answer. The Committee needed to look into this and then the Committee could increase the numbers. There was no use in increasing the budget if the training was not up to standard. Did the police applied its mind to this problem of 83% of the budget being used for personnel? He emphasised that he did not want SAPS members to get less. They were entitled to their salaries. In some cases they were getting too little of a salary for the work that they did.

Mr Shembeni said that he did not receive a proper answer for the reason the Crime Intelligence post not permanently filled for the past ten years. There were Acting Divisional Heads for the past ten years. That Division held sensitive information but in ten years there were ten heads. What was the cause? That was the answer he wanted from the Minister.

Gen Sitole confirmed that SAPS had applied its mind to the matter. As the accounting officer, he had made the decision that the 83% needed to come down to 75%. The difference between those percentages was needed to drive the support for operational requirements. With the current restructuring SAPS had decided that some posts were not going to be replaced and the budget would be redirected to the production level and to increase physical resources so that operations were supported. This percentage was no longer exactly at 83% – it had been taken down. In the requested budget report SAPS would be able to reflect what it needed to uplift its operational capability so that a balance was struck. What led to the 83% was the top-heavy structure that SAPS was trying to stabilise at the present moment.

When he took over as National Commissioner, Crime Intelligence (CI) had already been without a Divisional Commissioner for eight years. The first decision he took was to stabilise Crime Intelligence. He had decided to put to an end this particular environment because CI formed the basis of fighting crime in the country. He appointed the Divisional Commissioner who was currently under investigation. After the Divisional Commissioner appointment, he introduced the corporate renewal approach. This was the total rebuilding of Crime Intelligence. At some stage SAPS received a report from the Inspector General (IG) which compelled SAPS to commission an internal investigation into the CI head. That resulted in another Acting Divisional Commissioner appointment which was the one that he had explained. The instability in CI was caused by various factors which SAPS was dealing with now to ensure that it was completely stabilised. The corporate renewal process of Crime Intelligence was continuing and was linked to the restructuring. SAPS was working towards having a permanent Divisional Commissioner. Despite not having a permanent Divisional Commissioner, SAPS was driving a total revamping of the division.

Minister Cele said that the question about Crime Intelligence was directed to the Minister. He wanted this put on record. All DDGs in government were appointed by the Minister and affirmed by the Cabinet expect in the Police. In the Department of Police, DDGs were appointed by the National Commissioner. It would be difficult for the Executive Authority to oversee and follow that. By the time the decision was made it was only for mere noting by the Minister. That was why it was a difficult question for him to answer. He came in at the tail end of the process. In the Department of Police, the DDGs were not affirmed by Cabinet like all other DDGs in government. Crime Intelligence had been problematic from the beginning. The Crime Intelligence Head was suspended in 2011 and he stayed there for eight years getting paid. The Divisional Commissioner Gen Mokgabudi raised by the National Commissioner would be better discussed with him on Monday. The other matters could be reported to the Committee on Monday.

The Chairperson thanked the Minister for his responses. The Committee would see the Minister at the joint committee meeting tomorrow. The Committee understood that the Minister would appear in front of the Committee at least twice a week. The inquiry would take a bit of the Minister’s time. The Committee would give the Minister enough space and time to prepare. There would be a joint presentation from the Justice Crime Prevention & Security (JCPS) cluster. She asked if the Minister agreed that there would be a joint presentation.

The Minister asked between who and who?

The Chairperson responded that it would be from the JCPS cluster. There would be a joint meeting tomorrow. It would be one presentation from Police, Defence and State Security. She asked that when he had the single presentation that it be sent to the Committee as it had not received it yet.

The Minister said he was not sure if all the Ministers knew about this but he would be in contact with them and raise it with them.

The Chairperson asked Gen Lebeya how far the investigations were in Gauteng and KZN.

Mr Shaik Emam had a problem with promotions and appointments. There was an outcry from the ground that many senior offices with a lot of experience, skills and qualifications had been marginalised for a long period of time. For that reason many of them were leaving the police force. Some of the juniors were being appointed rather than those with the necessary expertise, qualifications and experience. The National Commissioner had explained who was responsible for appointments. What was the public spat all about when the Commissioner made an appointment and the Minister overturned that? People were exiting the police force due to being de-motivated because they were side-lined and not promoted.

Mr Maphatsoe referred to the ‘non-statutory force programme’ which was supposed to be implemented. The Committee was waiting for a report to understand how far it was. The Committee had received a report that the South African Police Union had taken that matter to court. He agreed with Mr Shaik Emam that the SAPS Commissioner should appoint people. The Minister attested to the powers of the National Commissioner. He had said the matter was in court. The Minister had left the meeting but he hoped that the Deputy Minister could answer. If the court matter was not related to restructuring then why should the SAPS Commissioner not move on the appointment of the person he had identified as Crime Intelligence Head? He agreed that there should be consultation with the Minister. However, what happened in the event that the Minister said no and the Commissioner wanted that specific person?

Where did the Committee draw the line? The police service was like the army. If restructuring was done then people could be moved around as long as it was not going to demobilise the effectiveness of the police. The Minister said he knew nothing about court matters. That meant that there were tensions because the Minister could not wait for the Committee to raise these questions in meetings. The Committee had not received a report on the spy grabber court case and had only received it today. The Committee needed a proper report so it was able to engage on the matter. The Committee had to play its oversight role without fear or favour. This was about the people of South Africa as this Department was very important. The Committee could not accept the fact that people felt unsafe in their own country because of the internal squabbles of the police.

Mr Maphatsoe noted that when the Department had a meeting with the Committee, the Minister never finished the meeting with the Committee. It was not good because it was as if the Committee was gossiping about him now; whereas the Committee wanted to raise these concerns with him directly. The National Commissioner was mandated by the SAPS Act in his duties. However, the Minister said that this appointment could not be done because the matter was in court. Was it in court because of the position or for other reasons? There could not be one person acting in two or three positions because of a case that had dragged on for eight years.

Mr Shembeni said that promotions within SAPS demoralised police members. He had been speaking about this matter since 2019. It did not make sense when people were told that they would not be promoted as long as a certain station commander was in charge. This meant that it was due to personal issues. There were police officers with degrees and diplomas who were not getting promotions within SAPS. This was a problem. What criteria were being used? Was there a committee that dealt with promotions? He had been told that there was a committee dealing with promotions. Police officers had to know that they would be promoted when certain things happen. Why were police officers with a degree or diploma not promoted when they applied? Certain people were told to apply for a post as it was reserved for them. What was the meaning of that? It could not happen. That was demoralising police officers.

Mr Shembeni referred to a motion raised by the EFF on 29 September 2019. It was about the capacity of the police stations in the whole country including the provincial offices. These stations needed to contain a rank of commander, brigadier, colonels and captains. There was nothing like that in the police stations. The Committee needed to have quarterly reports on police stations every year so that the Committee could check the capacity and resources of each station. When was the Committee going to get the quarterly reports on capacity within police stations? This would inform the Committee on how many SAPS members were needed per police station.

As the Minister was not in the meeting anymore, Mr Terblanche directed his question to the National Commissioner or Gen Lebeya. Mention was made of the 12 people suspected to be behind the unrest. Had arrests been made already? Apparently the 12 people were known. Were any arrests made on the looted ammunition?

Ms Faku was concerned about the Minister not being aware of some of the issues raised by the Committee such as the court judgement. When the Committee asked questions, it did not receive a direct answer. When the response was given, it was clear that there was a problem. She wanted clarity from the National Commissioner and the CFO why the Minister had raised concerns about supply chain management. It was heard that SAPS did not have enough rubber bullets in KZN. What were the challenges within the supply chain and how were these challenges going to be rectified?

The Chairperson said that Gen Riet would respond to that. She wanted to nail the matter of supply chain. The Minister consistently complained about the supply chain but what was being done?

Rev Meshoe asked for the latest developments on the 1.5 million rounds of ammunition that had been stolen. From what was heard in the media, the depot had been secure. There must have been cameras that saw what happened. Did the cameras show who stole that ammunition? There were people given the responsibility of ensuring there was enough security around the ammunition. There was a claim that the person who the ammunition belonged to did not come forward. Others were saying that the ammunition belonged to SAPS. What was the truth? Would an ordinary citizen have the right to order so many bullets? The law would not agree to that. Was the Committee being misled when it was told that it belongs to a private person and not government? What was the latest? What was the truth? The Committee wanted to know about that ammunition.

The Chairperson said that SAPS Act seemed to be at the heart of remedying some of the contested powers and functions of the Minister and the National Commissioner. What efforts was the Department making to address these matters in the amendments to the SAPS Act? Could the Committee be briefed in more detail on this? The Committee was also expected to amend the IPID Act. If these outstanding policies matters could be finalised then the relationship between the Minister and the National Commissioner could be clarified. If that failed then it would be the two of them not understanding their roles. The SAPS Act had to clearly define the role of the Minister and the National Commissioner. The Chairperson said that the National Commissioner could ask the other generals to assist him in responding to these questions.

SAPS response
Gen Sitole responded about SAPS promotions. Statements made by members of the police force about promotions amounted to serious misconduct. It did not matter who was uttering it. If it was a senior official to a junior then the general was committing misconduct. The promotion process in SAPS was clearly outlined in National Instructions. SAPS members needed to be treated purely in terms of the National Instruction. The National Instruction stated explicitly that any information which was not part and parcel of the assessment could not be brought into the process of either promotion or appointment.

His plea was that if Members picked up such statements that it be brought to his attention because they warranted action.  He did not want to deny the particular statement of SAPS members who were said to be supplanted. As a result of an unstructured and inconsistent application of the National Instructions there would be SAPS members who were sidelined. In terms of the restructuring, SAPS had appointed a committee of senior SAPS members led by a Deputy National Commissioner to look into the profiles of each and every SAPS member. That profile included qualifications. It would be seen if a member was in the right place to add value to the organisation. If not, the profile would be used to recommend that the member had to be placed somewhere else. The same applied with the promotion process. He had appointed a monitoring and evaluation committee on promotions. Each province effected their promotions and those appointments were all subject to this national monitoring and evaluation committee to ratify the decisions. If the National Instructions or the policy framework had not been correctly applied, that particular appointment would be questioned and would call for correction. He directed another process of looking into academic qualifications as SAPS members acquired them so that their placement could be reviewed and to look at related developmental processes. On the reversal of appointments, he suspected that that question had already been answered by the Minister.

Gen Sitole  replied that the Minister had indicated that the appointment of DDGs in SAPS was the mandate of the National Commissioner. At the time there was a suggested appointment reversal, the Minister had actually advanced the policy and legislation related to it. If the Minister reversed the appointment it would count against him because the mandate was with the National Commissioner. The Minister had said that he and the National Commissioner were working together. By the time the National Commissioner effected an appointment, he would bring the Minister on board so that he could not say he did not know who was the new general appointed. The prescripts, the National Instruction and SAPS Act prescribe that the National Commissioner should effect the appointments. When an appointment process started, he would first approve the panel handling the appointment and thereafter recommendations would be brought to him and he would approve the appointment. Thereafter he would inform the Minister. That was the process. The issue of reversal of appointments had been corrected because an understanding was created.

On the matter that was in court, the restructuring placement, specifically the CI one, was not in court. There was no court order. The Divisional Commissioner had gone to his lawyers and his lawyers wrote SAPS a letter saying that it should retain the Divisional Commissioner in his position or else the lawyers would take SAPS to court. The same applied to the other matter that had been advanced by the Minister. In both of those matters SAPS had received letters from the lawyers. The restructuring committee had responded to the correspondence from these lawyers.

Restructuring was a dire need. The finalisation of the restructuring process in a shorter space of time would work to the advantage of the organisation so that stability could be brought in. Any delay could then cause instability.

On the prescripts that dealt with restructuring, it was a process that was confined to the Accounting Officer to handle. During restructuring no one was in a post. Only the National Commissioner was in the post. After all he had to confirm everyone starting with the Deputy National Commissioners. When the restructuring started, he first did the confirmation of the Deputy National Commissioners. Thereafter, he had appointed them into a committee to deal with the placement of everyone else. The post of CI Head, during restructuring, was vacant. By the time the current Divisional Commissioner was placed, the post was vacant. The former CI Divisional Commissioner, who was contesting this with the lawyers, was officially placed in terms of the restructuring. The National Commissioner had approved the recommendations of the restructuring committee. This matter was going to be resolved. On 2 August SAPS would explain everything. He did not think SAPS should retard the restructuring process because people were threatening court action. It was critical for the organisation to move forward.

On capacity of police stations, SAPS had decided to move away from the rank structure and had introduced the personnel plan for each and every police station. What happened previously was that the profile of stations had been growing but the resources were not growing together with the profile. The station ended up being a hotspot. Currently that was the process that he had instructed. However, he agreed that SAPS might need to give a constant update to the Committee on the profile and the resources in those stations. SAPS had made this a matter for community policing so that communities were assisting to monitor development in that area. This was linked to the municipal profile.

To date the reports that had been brought to the National Commissioner stated that 11 instigators had been arrested and behind bars. In the National Security Council it was decided that this matter be dealt with operationally. From time-to-time SAPS was asked to update on progress on arrests. Although it was not a problem to report on people as they were already arrested, sometimes when SAPS was dealing with an unconventional modus operandi it was far riskier to announce that SAPS had arrested someone. There had been two arrests involving the missing ammunition. The investigation was continuing. He had spoken to the KZN Provincial Commissioner and senior national officials. According to the report received the ammunition did not belong to the state but to a private company. The investigation suggested that the container was not cleared at the harbour. SAPS was still trying to figure out why the container was not sent back.

Gen Sitole  commented on supply chain. Steps and action had been taken from his level. Supply chain had been contaminated. There had been a lot of interest in supply chain. He described it as a money-making scheme. That was what the supply chain became. He had sanctioned both internal as well as criminal investigations to deal with supply chain. It started with the Divisional Commissioner and quite a few senior officers. Some had been dismissed. After that he decided on a corporate renewal. The corporate renewal started with the appointment of a new Divisional Commissioner, Lt Gen Riet. When Lt Gen Riet came to supply chain he found chaos. He had tried his level best to correct that situation.

Gen Sitole  discussed the separation of powers. There were a few prescripts that needed to be looked into by the legal team. This included reading some of the regulations with existing legislation. This situation needed to be cleared up in an amicable way.

Lt Gen Francina Vuma, Deputy National Commissioner: Support Services, replied that SAPS was in the process of corporate renewal as discussed by the National Commissioner. The sooner the restructuring process was finalised, the sooner SAPS would be able to place the right people in the supply chain division who would be able to respond to service delivery as required by the organisation as well as the country. Lt Gen Riet would respond with specifics on this matter.

Lt Gen Godfrey Lebeya, Head: Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (DPCI), responded about the 12 instigators. The National Commissioner indicated there have been other people who have been arrested. He assured the Committee that there was a process taking place behind closed doors. The investigating team was working closely with the National Prosecuting Authority. Part of the process was to do the linkages. There was a lot of work that had been done. One statement consisted of more than 200 pages. The investigation was continuing as certain individuals had already been taken into custody.

The ammunition investigation team was being led by a very serious officer. All of the boxes were being ticked. The checklist included all the nitty-gritty that needed to be done at the scene of a crime. The investigating team was well experienced. The National Commissioner had noted that two of them had already been arrested with a certain portion of ammunition. The police were working on the matter and trying to locate all the ammunition from that same container.

Lt Gen Johannes Riet, Divisional Commissioner: Supply Chain Management, confirmed that the stolen ammunition did not belong to SAPS. He discussed the challenges around supply chain management. He agreed with the National Commissioner that supply chain had been highly contaminated. When he filled the position, the first arrest was the arrest of 23 people for supply chain management irregularities. Some of those individuals had been dismissed. He was involved in the Departmental investigation to ensure there was clean governance in supply chain management. He ensured that all the SCM prescripts were followed. Unfortunately, certain people were getting frustrated about the rules. He was the one who made sure that the governance and legislative frameworks were being applied.

On the examples of the buccal swabs for DNA collection and helicopters, he confirmed that there were enough buccal swabs in the country. When he entered the division, there was a backlog of DNA contracts in the forensic service environment.

It was not due to the supply chain per se but because of funding which had been looted in the past. That resulted in supply chain not having sufficient budget towards the end of the financial year. The procurement process did not mean that the need was immediately met. There were processes and committees such as the bid specification committee. Other committees came in to adjudicate and evaluate then only was the award done. Certain processes could go wrong and one would have to guard against missteps. If one makes a slip then the Auditor General was watching. Some people might not like the clean governance processes he was putting in place. The AG was on his neck about certain issues that had gone wrong. It was up to him to explain those particular issues. To ensure that there was integrity, clean governance and SAPS was protected in its procurement he would always be there. This was despite the fact that he was accused of the supply chain not providing some resources. The National Commissioner would be the first one to say if he had not been progressing in supplying equipment to SAPS. He was not saying that supply chain management was completely clean but they were trying their best as the corporate renewal strategy was put in place. He would protect supply chain wherever it went. If someone was doing something wrong he would ensure that person would go through the discipline process so corruption and misconduct could be rooted out of supply chain management.  

The Chairperson thanked Gen Riet for clarifying this and asked if SAPS would have a clean audit.

Deputy Minister Cassel Mathale responded that the Chairperson was putting Gen Riet on the spot. It would not be appropriate to push him into a corner to answer if there would be a clean audit. Gen Riet was not responsible for the clean audit but rather the institution. He said the Chairperson should ask the National Commissioner.

The Chairperson said that the Deputy Minister was now becoming the protector of Gen Riet.

Deputy Minister Mathale said that he was not. SAPS had told the Committee that it was having supply chain challenges and that there was no head of supply chain. The Department had come back to the Committee and said it had appointed a head of supply chain which was Gen Riet. The Department had developed a corporate renewal strategy for supply chain so that it could deal with the bottlenecks that were there. A lot of work had been done. A number of outstanding contracts had been processed. However, because of the magnitude of the problem there were areas where there were still challenges. This was because the issues had not been completely resolved such as within forensics. These obstacles would be overcome.

Generally speaking, progress had been made. There was a lot that SAPS still needed to do until it had satisfaction in the items it needed to utilise. Progress had been made but challenges were still there. It was not going to be an easy process. Looking at the current environment SAPS had been in during the protest, it had admitted to the Committee that it could have done better. The atmosphere was still not clear; it was a bit poisoned. Until SAPS had normalised things it would not expect the Committee to treat SAPS with ‘kid gloves’. The Chairperson said she wanted a clean audit and SAPS needed to give a clean audit. SAPS was trying to ensure that it arrived at an environment where the way it procured goods and managed state was such that it could at all times account in a manner that the Auditor-General would be comfortable with. SAPS was determined to arrive at a clean audit. It was not going to be an easy route but SAPS was determined to ensure that happened. He thought he had to make these comments because it was necessary for Members to get that type of perspective on the concerns raised.

The Chairperson said that there had been a marked improvement since the appointment of Gen Riet. The Committee knew that he was working under difficult circumstances and that the Committee was putting pressure on him. There had been improvement and the Committee would like that unit stabilised.

The Chairperson said that she would not be taking many more questions. If the members had something to ask urgently which could not wait for tomorrow then they could ask it. Tomorrow the Committee would be joined by a number of other Committees.

Mr Shaik Emam noted the response about the stolen ammunition. The public was very concerned that 1.5 million rounds of ammunition was in the hands of somebody. No one knew who had the ammunition. It posed a great risk to communities particularly where the violence erupted. He was looking for some explanation or confirmation from DPCI. How far was the investigation in finding where the ammunition was and who was responsible? It posed a great risk at this point.

Mr Shembeni asked if a Provincial Commissioner for the Northern Cape had been appointed. It had been advertised and was a funded post. When could the appointment be expected?

Mr Maphatsoe said his question on the Non-Statutory Force (NSF) members was not responded to. This was an outstanding matter. NSF members had followed the correct procedure but there had never been any movement. The last time he asked this question was in 2020. The Solidarity union had interdicted the implementation of the re-ranking of Non-Statutory Force members. 

Gen Sitole replied that the NSF matter was taken to court. There was an order that SAPS should not proceed and the whole process had to come to a standstill until the court had concluded the matter. As it was a court order, SAPS would need to follow a legal court process because it was taking longer than expected. SAPS would get clarification from the court. There were other processes that were getting negatively affected. If SAPS violated the order it would be held in contempt. SAPS would task its legal services to obtain urgent clarification so that it could report back to the Committee on the matter.

Gen Sitole explained that there had been a misunderstanding about the termination of the contract of the former Provincial Commissioner of the Northern Cape. He dealt with the contract termination. He indicated this to the former Provincial Commissioner and the contract was disposed of. When he informed the Premier,  Gen Sitole had escalated the matter to section 207 of the Constitution as the Premier wanted SAPS to go back to contract the former Provincial Commissioner.

According to the SAPS Act, the National Commissioner would make a decision whether to extend the contract or not and he would inform the Committee. The Act provided that if he decided to extend he would do it in consultation with the Minister, and not the Premier. It was outside the Constitution. The Premier wanted SAPS to deal with this matter. He had explained and clarified this. He started a section 207 process and advertised the post. After advertising the post, he invited the province to participate which was not prescribed in the law but it had been made a practice through a National Instruction. A candidate was recommended. The section 207 process was still ongoing because of the declared unhappiness. When he escalated the matter to the Minister, the Northern Cape escalated the matter to the Presidency and called for the intervention of the President. SAPS had held the matter in abeyance until it received direction from the President. That was why the appointment was not yet effected. There was a need to revisit this because if a province was without a Provincial Commissioner then there would soon be chaos. No one was taking command and responsibility of the province. The matter was receiving serious priority.

Lt Gen Sally Khan, Divisional Commissioner: Legal and Policy Services, provided further input on the Solidarity matter. The matter had been set down for 20 to 23 September. That was the progress as far as the matter was concerned.

Lt Gen Lebeya replied about the ammunition which was a concern for the public and agreed it was a concern that the ammunition was in illegal hands. The question was when the people responsible could be expected to account. In the investigation SAPS was looking at who was responsible for stealing the ammunition. Part of the investigation dealt with the administration and removal of the ammunition from where it was supposed to have been cleared to the point where it was stolen. The police were focusing on the stolen part of the investigation and the attempt to recover. At this stage the police did not know who was responsible for stealing. The owner – who was supposed to have taken care of the ammunition from where it was stolen – was known.

Part of the ammunition that had been recovered was based on information from members of the public. He called on the public who had knowledge of where the ammunition might be to come forward and to assist if there was knowledge of who were the possible suspects. There was intelligence working on this investigation. Members of the public were encouraged to bring forward the information. As long as the ammunition was in illegal hands it posed a danger to everyone.

Deputy Minister concluding remarks
Deputy Minister Mathale said that SAPS had appeared before the Committee many times to account for what it did. Today’s encounter had been one of the most intense interactions between the Committee and SAPS. SAPS appreciated the frankness of the Committee members. The frankness was underlined by genuineness and the Committee’s desire to see an improved SAPS. He thanked them for engaging with SAPS in a constructive and critical manner. If things could be approached in this frank way then this would help SAPS improve on its work.

He assured the Committee that there were men and women in SAPS who were ready and willing to do their work under the leadership of the Minister, the National Commissioner and the Head of the DPCI. Under difficult circumstances the leadership had been able to rise to the occasion. He was confident that SAPS could only improve as it interacted with the Committee. SAPS always left these meetings better and wiser from the input received from the Committee. SAPS was grateful for that. It had been a long day but very constructive. SAPS appreciated these engagements.

The Chairperson said that last week the Committee changed its oversight visit into a five-hour engagement with the Minister. The Committee had to get to a point where it stopped having questions and started seeing a change in the environment in which it was working. There had to be confidence in the work that SAPS was doing. The reputation and image of SAPS had been severely tarnished especially over the last few weeks. There needed to be a revitalised senior leadership with forward-thinking professionals especially in the growing crime categories of cybercrime and gender-based violence. There needed to be the revitalisation of station commanders at local level to implement morale boosting programmes. Efforts and resources were needed for the training academies to deal with the morale of rank-and-file members. The training of rank-and-file members has become more urgent.

The SAPS Act appeared to be at the heart of remedying some of the contested powers and functions of the Minister. What efforts were being made to address these matters? When will the Committee see the SAPS Amendment Bill? The Committee did not have to wait for it to be approved by Cabinet. If the Committee was brought on line during the drafting process it made it easier for the Committee to comment on the amendments to SAPS Act – instead of waiting for it for this long and having it out in the public. It was part of this Committee’s key performance areas to amend the SAPS Act and the IPID Act. The Firearms Control Amendment Bill was not really of concern to the Committee. If it came through, the Committee would spend time on it. The Committee would have to spend sufficient time on engaging the SAPS Amendment Bill and ensure the finished product would be a historic moment for this Committee to complete the amendment of the 1995 SAPS Act. The SAPS Act had not been updated since the new Constitution had been passed. The SAPS Act had never been amended. So she thought that was an unconstitutional Act after 25 years.

The Committee saw this type of conflict playing out in front of it. Contentious issues were being seen as problems between two individuals. At the bottom of it were more systemic problems where the National Commissioner was responsible for operational matters and the Minister was responsible for developing policy. If the police lacked the necessary policies to do its work then there would always be contentious issues and disagreement on the roles. The amendment of SAPS Act was key to addressing some of the acute challenges in SAPS. The Committee would spend enough time on the recent acts of violence including receiving a report on what happened in Phoenix. That inquiry would look at the details of what happened in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng. After the inquiry the Committee would have to ascertain if the security structures were capable of managing such situations in the future. It was not just about what had happened but about what needs to happen immediately, in the medium term and in the long term.

The 30 July joint meeting would have three to four Committees combined with the NCOP. It would be a difficult meeting to manage and it needed to happen within a set period of time. She alerted members that not all Committee members had access to unlimited Wi-Fi. Some members were privileged to have unlimited Wi-Fi access. Members should not assume that all in this Committee were that privileged. It was unfortunate that members thought they could have four-hour meetings twice a week and expect other members to spend eight hours on data which they did not have.

Committee members needed to be considerate. They were constantly pushing for more time and more questions. It was becoming very difficult for the Chairperson to respond to members’ demands. If members started losing respect for the Chairperson then there would be absolute chaos in the meeting. She tried to accommodate everyone but it was becoming very difficult to run a meeting where members expected it to last four hours twice a week. On the other hand, there were members who complained that they could not spend eight hours in meetings each week. The inquiry would require two to three meetings per week. Members needed to keep in mind that the Committee would then sit for 12 hours. She asked them. to be considerate.

Deputy Minister Mathale said that the Chairperson should ask SAPS to update the Committee on where it was with SAPS Amendment Bill and provide a briefing on the content. SAPS was ready to brief the Committee at any time.

The Chairperson said the briefing would be arranged very soon in the third term. It was a priority.

Committee Report: Central Firearm Registry; Forensic Science Laboratory oversight visit The Chairperson went through the report of the 15 May Pretoria oversight visit and asked if there were any amendments. There were none and the Committee adopted the report.

Committee Report: Critical Infrastructure Council interviews
The Chairperson said that the Committee held interviews from 8 to 10 June 2021 for the Critical Infrastructure Council. The Critical Infrastructure Protection Act prescribed the appointment process for ten private sector and civil society members of the Critical Infrastructure Council by this Committee. The task was referred to the Committee by the Speaker on 2 February 2021. Whatever the Committee had done would be made public. The interview process was recorded. The media were welcome to have access to those recordings. The Committee was compelled to hold the interviews physically and interviewed a number of candidates. The Committee had agreed on a shortlist to present to the Minister. The Committee included another candidate just in case one of the candidates was not available. The interview panel recommended ten candidates. The Committee had an eleventh candidate as a reserve. It was a name nominated by Mr Shembeni.

Dr Irvin Kinnes, Committee Content Advisor said that in terms of the Act the Committee could not recommend 11 names. The Committee could only put forward ten names for the Minister’s consideration.

The Chairperson said that the Committee would put forward ten names for the Minister’s consideration. The eleventh name should be a reserve. It would not be sent to the Minister but in case there was a problem with any of the ten then the eleventh one would be in reserve. When the Committee did the shortlisting a number of the candidates either withdrew or were not eligible for interview. The Chairperson asked Mr Shembeni for the name of the reserve candidate.

Mr H Shembeni (EFF) said that the candidate he had spoken about was candidate number six and was already included in the list.

The Chairperson said that the Committee did not need the eleventh candidate. The name had already been included. The Chairperson asked if there was a proposal for adoption.

The Chairperson asked the staff to ensure that the names were all correct. The names had to be correct when the Committee made the recommendations to the Minister.

The Committee formally adopted the Committee Report with some corrections.

Committee minutes of 16 July 2021
The Chairperson said that this meeting dealt with the police response to the violence in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng. She went through the recommendations. The Committee adopted the minutes.

The Committee would be doing an inquiry into the police response to the violence over the next two weeks. The Committee expected succinct and direct answers to questions. The Committee would prepare a report after it had conducted the inquiry. The meeting was adjourned.