Suspensions; Batho Pele; Qualifications Verification; State Information Technology Agency Bill: voting

Meeting report

LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND ADMINISTRATION SELECT COMMITTEE

LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND ADMINISTRATION SELECT COMMITTEE
25 September 2002
STATE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AGENCY BILL: DELIBERATIONS; MANAGEMENT OF
SUSPENSIONS; COMPLIANCE WITH BATHO PELE; VERIFICATION OF MANAGEMENT
QUALIFICATIONS: BRIEFING BY PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION

Chairperson: Mr BJ Mkhalipi (ANC)

Documents handed out:
Documents available here shortly; email [email protected] for copy
State Information Technology Agency Amendment Bill
Presentation by Department on SITA Amendment Bill
PCS report on the management of suspensions in the public service as from 1 July
1999 until 31 July 2001
Survey of Compliance with Batho Pele Policy
Verification of Qualification of Senior Managers in the Public Service

SUMMARYThe Committee finalised discussions on the proposed amendments to the SITA Amendment Bill. Committee members agreed to the proposed amendments except for objections by the NNP to Clause 15, which enables the Minister to make regulations on IT procurement after consultation will all Ministers and MECs.

The Committee was also briefed on various research conducted by the Public Service Commission. The presentation showed that there has been no substantial compliance with the Batho Pele policy. The public service is also failing in handling suspensions. The presentation also showed that managers are well qualified in their line-functions but there is a need for management specific training. The Commission found the potential for further training to be high given the sound educational basis possessed by senior managers. It was also found that if current skills were enhanced there would be strong management potential for transforming the public service. The Commission is of the view that training needs to flexible and cater for the high work demands of senior managers. The report also suggested that, due to the socio-political context South Africa may have produced highly qualified managers at the expense of other, inappropriately trained, officials.

MINUTES
Mr Steinberg: Department of Public Service and Administration, continued to lead the Committee through the proposed amendments to the State Information Technology Agency Amendment Bill, picking up at Clause six.

Clause 6
The clause deals with the constitution of the board of the Agency. It is proposed that the number of directors should be increased to a maximum of fourteen. It is also proposed that the limitation to the number of executive directors be replaced by the requirement that the majority of directors must be non-executive. Currently, the board can have only three executive directors. It is believed that by increasing the number of non-executive directors the Agency would be able to recruit experts in, among others, financial management and IT networks. It is also proposed that the Minister should also be able to appoint an alternate member for every non-executive member. The majority of non0executive members would form the quorum at all meetings.

Clause 8
Clause 8 deals with the transfer of staff. It is proposed that SITA must offer employment to IT practitioners of Departments associated with compulsory/optional services when Departments use SITA services for that service.

Clause 9
Clause 9 deals with the rates for services and auditing. The proposed amendment allows the Minister for Public Service and Administration to determine rates for SITA services after consultation with all Ministers and MECs and with the approval of the Minister of Finance. Such rates should be market related. In terms of this amendment the board is allowed to appoint its own auditor. Currently the Auditor General audits the statements of the Agency.

Clause 10
Clause 10 concerns the issue of the Agency's share capital. The current Section 18 stipulates that the state must be issued with fully paid up shares in exchange of assets transferred to SITA valued on a method acceptable to the state. This requires the valuation of assets and then agreement on the value and number of shares to be issued. This section requires transfer of all assets but in reality assets are transferred from time to time. In other words there has never been a once off transfer of IT assets of all Departments. This in turn makes the valuation of assets and the necessary agreement on the value and number of shares difficult. The proposed amendments do not require transfer of all IT assets but only assets related to amongst other things, networks and other IT assets, depending on whether one is dealing with the provision of a compulsory or optional service. It is also proposed that the Agency should have a share capital of R1 represented by one share with a nominal value of R1. Such share capital has no link with the value of assets transferred to the Agency. The state remains the sole shareholder.

Clause 12
Clause 12 deals with the transfer of assets to SITA. This clause proposes that when compulsory services are used all assets must be transferred from the department to the Agency. Property includes intellectual property rights. When optional services are used only those assets that both parties agreed to should be transferred. The Bill proposes that the transfer be accompanied by the assignment of all rights and obligations attached thereto. Furthermore there would be no transfer and stamp payable as a result of such transfers.

Clause 13
Clause 13 deals with business and service level agreements. Departments must conclude business and service level agreements with the SITA to regulate compulsory and optional services. Compulsory terms would be prescribed by regulation. Mr Steinberg indicated that issues like termination of agreements would be dealt with in the regulations. The proposed amendment also provides for a transitional phasing out of existing agreements. Such agreements should be phased out within 36 months. The period runs from the day the amendments come into effect until the lapse of the stated 36 months.

Clause 16
Clause 16 empowers the Minister to make regulations on IT procurement after consultation with all Ministers and MECs and subject to the Minister of Finance's approval. The Clause also empowers the minister to lay down compulsory terms of business agreements. The minister is also empowered to make regulations on procedures to resolve disputes between departments and SITA.

Discussion
Mr K Mokoena (ANC) asked the presenter to clarify whether if Section 7 will be completely new.

Mr Steinberg indicated that it would not be totally correct to say that Section 7 is a new section since some issues addressed in the section are dealt with in the current Act. However, there are new and specific provisions. There are also new functions added and, for example, the issue of interoperability and the setting of standards.

Mr B Mkaliphi (ANC) said it seemed that SITA has realised it had taken on too many responsibilities and as such could not function effectively. He asked the presenters to pinpoint, if any, sections that reflect that realisation.

Mr E Maseko (SITA) indicated that the issue of when Departments are obliged to use the services of SITA, in terms of Section 7(1)(a) and (b) reflects such realisation.

Mr Mokoena observed that since the Agency wants to recruit people with different expertise it appears that such people would come from different components of the society representing different views. He enquired whether people from disadvantaged communities are accommodated.

Mr Maseko (SITA) presumed that the intelligentsia from the rural communities is accommodated. He indicated that it was not possible to target everyone in the rural areas given the fact that some are illiterate. He was of the opinion that intelligentsia from the rural communities know their communities well enough to articulate their views. Mr Radebe (SITA) indicated that, in discharging its obligations, the Agency accommodates different communities.

Mr Mkhalipi asked if this is the Agency's guiding philosophy when it comes to appointing directors. Mr Radebe indicated that this was indeed the guiding philosophy. The constitution of the current board represents the demographics of our society. He also indicated that the Agency is prepared to come back and lay down its employment pattern to the committee.

Mr Mkhalipi noted that rural municipalities have limited understanding and use of IT. In terms of Clause 8, IT practitioners must be offered employment by the Agency when the Department concerned uses IT services. Mr Mkhalipi also noted that the Agency is committed to skills development. He questioned whether the transfer of staff would not weaken the skills development initiatives. This was especially the case given the fact that, in most cases, the IT practitioner in some ways teaches IT to colleagues. The presenters indicated that they do not just remove the IT practitioner from his or her employment.

Training is offered and the employee concerned has the right to refuse the employment offered by SITA.

Mr C Ackerman (NNP) enquired why the Agency wants to be exempted from transfer and stamp duty when there is a transfer of assets.

SITA representatives indicated that the Agency is wholly owned by the state and that it is unsound to have government paying government whenever there is a transfer. They were of the view that the transfers are akin to a mere cession of the assets to the agency and hence no transfer duty needs to be paid.

Mr Ackerman asked why the Minister is empowered to make regulations on IT procurement after consultation with all Minister and MECs in terms of Clause 15. He was of the opinion that the Minister should make regulations in, as opposed to after, consultation with Ministers and MECs.

Mr Maseko was of the opinion that "in" and "after" consultation mean the same thing.

Mr P Matthee (NNP) disagreed with the interpretation given by Mr Maseko. Mr Matthee indicated that there is a vast and fundamental difference between 'in consultation' and 'after consultation'. 'In consultation' indicated that there should be consensus whilst 'after consultation' only requires mere consultation.

Mr Steinberg (DPSA) indicated that it was not the Department's intention to take decisions unilaterally. The Department was not opposed to using the phrase 'in consultation with all the Ministers'. Mr Mokoena said it would be wrong to use 'in consultation', as this would send a message that Ministers are not trusted.

Mr Mkhalipi recommended that the clause stay as it is.

The Committee adopted all the proposed amendments. However, Mr C Ackerman (NNP) rejected Clause 15.

Briefing by the Public Service Commission
Management of suspensions
The survey on management of suspensions was conducted in the period between 1 July 1999 to 31 July 2001. Mr Naidoo: Chief Director: Human Resource and Development, indicated that the advent of the disciplinary code and procedure brought major changes in the application of suspensions. Prior to 1 July 1999 most Departments endorsed suspensions without remuneration. This position changed as from 1 July 1999. A total number of 377 employees were suspended or transferred during the period of the research. A total of 77% of suspensions or transfers took place on the provincial level. Gauteng Province has the highest number (53) of suspensions while Mpumalanga has the lowest, at seven. The suspensions cost the public service an amount of nearly R9 544 222,00 for the period under consideration. This amount only covers 81% of departments or provincial administrations. Provincial governments account for 76% of the costs.

Mr Naidoo indicated that in terms of the Disciplinary Code a disciplinary hearing must be held within one month from the date of suspension. However, the Commission found that in 72% of the case employees were suspended for a period longer than one month. In 52% of the case employees were suspended for longer than three months.

The Commission observed that employees were suspended for various offences like unauthorised use of government property and abusive language. It was also found that alternatives to suspension were not considered. There is also a lack of review. The Commission also found lack of capacity to conduct hearings.

The Commission recommended that the DPSA co-ordinate a central database with particulars on suspended officers to be accessed by all Departments. It was also recommended that there should be guidelines in the management of suspensions.

Compliance with the Batho Pele Policy
Mr Van der Merwe: Director: Management and Service Development Improvement, indicated that the survey covered different Departments all over the country. The Commission compared practices in Departments with requirements of the policy. The Commission was largely concerned with the degree of compliance. Customer satisfaction was not important for the purposes of the Commission.

The Commission found that there was basic compliance with the policy. Nothing in the findings of the Commission suggested that there was something wrong with the policy. It was also found that there is a need to align service delivery with the service delivery improvement plan. The Commission also found that changes were needed in basis management systems and basic performance measurement systems. There is also a need for training designed around basic skills.

Verification of Qualifications
Mr Naidoo said that the objective of the project was to establish the authenticity of formal tertiary institution qualifications and to contribute to the overall upgrading of information on personnel in government. The project covered 30 national departments and nine provincial administrations.

A 99% rate of qualification authenticity was achieved. In the two cases of misrepresentation, action was taken. A total number of 5 216 degrees and diplomas are held. A total of 54% of these qualifications are held by managers from national departments and 46% by managers from provincial administrations. The average number of tertiary qualifications held by managers in the public service is two.

Almost half (47%) of senior managers hold qualifications from the arts field, 29% from the science field, 13% from the commerce field and 11% from the law field of study.

It was found that managers are well qualified in their line-functions but there is a need for management specific training. The Commission also found that the potential for further training to be successful is high given the sound educational basis possessed by senior managers. It was also found that if current skills were enhanced there would be strong management potential for transforming the public service. The Commission is of the view that training needs to flexible and cater for the high work demands of senior managers. The report also suggests that due to our socio-political context we may have produced one attribute: highly qualified managers, at the expense of other, inappropriately trained, officials.

The Commission felt that the extent of compliance by national Departments and provincial administrations around this project raised some issues of compliance and co-ordination. Departments seemed to experience problems eliciting information from their managers. This may have something to do with issues of leadership and management. The Commission felt that if relatively simple information such as this was so difficult to obtain this does not augur well for the more complex information requests.

The Commission recommended that intense discussions on the quality of the public service leadership must be undertaken with key stakeholders. It was also recommended that the project must be extended to other levels. The South African Qualifications Authority should help in this regard.

Discussion
Mr P Matthee (NNP) asked the presenters to estimate the total amount of fruitless expenditure, given that the figure of R 9 544 222,00 does not include the payment of temporary employees who replace suspended employees. He asked if it would not be better to have dedicated teams of lawyers to deal with issues of suspension. The presenters indicated that the expenditure was over R1million. It was indicated that in terms of the current structure there are people to deal with suspension. However, the problem is that they are not always available.

Ms Lubidla (ANC) asked the Commission to indicate if there are instances where suspensions have led to legal proceedings against the government.

Mr Naidoo responded that the Commission did not cover that aspect in their research. He admitted that this would have presented an opportunity to see if the government is on the right track with regard to suspensions.

Mr K Mokoena (ANC) asked what difference it makes to suspend an employee with or without pay given the fact that the job of the person is still not done.

Mr Naidoo (PSC) indicated that it was unfair labour practice to suspend an employee without pay. However, suspension with pay doubles the costs since the employee is paid and the job is not done.

With regard to Batho Pele policy Mr Mokoena observed that some people have reached their ceiling and cannot be trained. He asked the presenter what should be done in such cases. It was indicated that indeed some people may be difficult to train and in such instances it is up to the Department concerned to decide what to do.

Mr Mkhalipi was concerned about Departments that refuse to be evaluated.

Mr Naidoo indicated that as long as an institution is using public funds it should be evaluated. He indicated that there is a general agreement even among union leaders that there should be evaluation. Even at school there has been successful evaluation although individual teachers sometimes have problems with evaluation. Mr Naidoo expressed the view that such refusal raises suspicions and makes the call for evaluation even stronger.

Mr Mkhalipi asked the presenters to explain what happens when an officer refuses to have his or her qualifications verified.

The PSC team indicated that such refusal raises suspicion. It was also indicated that a subpoena might be issued to have the qualifications produced.

The meeting was adjourned.