SAHRC vacancies: interviews day 1

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Justice and Correctional Services

09 March 2021
Chairperson: Mr G Magwanishe (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

Video: Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Services, 09 March 2021

Media Statement: Justice and Correctional Services Committee Shortlists Candidates for SAHRC

The Committee interviewed the shortlisted candidates in a virtual meeting to fill two full-time positions at the South African Human Rights Commission (SAHRC). The vacancies arose following the death of the SAHRC  Deputy Chairperson, Ms Priscilla Jana, and the end of term of Adv Mohamed Shafie Ameermia. There were 59 nominations and applications and the shortlisted candidates interviewed on Day 1 of interviews were: Mr Jonas Ben Sibanyoni, Ms Philile Ntuli, Ms Ferial Adam, Ms Nomfundo Ntloko-Gobodo and Adv Andre Gaum.

Meeting report

The criteria for a SAHRC Commissioner is a person who is a South African citizen; who is fit and proper to hold the Office of Commissioner as stipulated in Section 193(1) of the Constitution; who has a record of commitment for promoting and respecting human rights, possessing the correct knowledge and experience such matters connected and is compliant with requirements of the SAHRC Act.

Candidate 1: Mr Jonas Ben Sibanyoni
The Chairperson said before the interview began he would like to put on record that he knew the candidate from 2004 to 2009 as they had both served in the same Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development as it was known then. He asked if anyone else wanted to make declarations.

Mr S Swart (ACDP) said he was also familiar with the candidate and he served with the candidate in previous parliamentary terms.

Ms J Mofokeng (ANC) said she knows the candidate from Pretoria, but she has never worked with him.

Ms W Newhoudt-Druchen (ANC) said she also served with the candidate in previous parliamentary terms.

The Chairperson said that the candidate is currently serving as part-time SAHRC Commissioner. The Committee had not yet received feedback on the screening and fingerprints of candidates. He asked if the candidate had a criminal record and was ever declared insolvent. If the candidate were appointed as a full-time Commissioner, how would he convince the Committee that he would be able to step into the role. He asked the candidate to tell the Committee about himself, his values and experience.

Mr Swart asked the candidate about his understanding of the Commission's constitutional duty and key statutory mandate, powers and functions. What is the candidate's understanding of the powers that the SAHRC has to fulfil its mandate. The SAHRC has faced many challenges in fulfilling its mandate. Having been a part-time Commissioner, can you share some of those challenges and how you would mitigate those should you be appointed. How would the candidate deal with the budgetary constraints facing the SAHRC. Section 184(3) of the Constitution states that the Commission must require relevant organs of state to provide it with information on the measures they have taken towards the realisation of rights annually such as the rights to housing, water, food and social security. How would the candidate ensure that the relevant organs of state fulfil this mandate going forward. The SAHRC previously complained that this information was not given to it.

Ms Mofokeng asked the candidate what could be done by the SAHRC to combat the scourge of racism, xenophobia and related intolerances and gender-based violence and femicide which are undermining South Africa’s human rights culture. She asked about the SAHRC relationship with the other Chapter 9 institutions. Does the candidate think the public understands the role of the Chapter 9 institutions. What is the role of Parliament for the Commission? Does the Commission have enough support from Parliament.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked for the candidate's view on the critical human rights issues facing South Africa. Given the COVID-19 pandemic, there are serious limitations on the Commission. This has placed the spotlight on the role of the state during the pandemic. What is the candidate's view on the key human rights challenges that have emerged during the pandemic. Has the SAHRC response to the COVID-19 pandemic been enough? Are there lessons that should be learnt? Each Commissioner has a focus area, what has been the candidate's focus area as a Commissioner and what focus areas would the candidate like to consider in future?

Adv G Breytenbach (DA) asked why the candidate thought the Constitution requires the Commission to be independent and impartial and why does it protect the Commission's independence. If the candidate is appointed as Commissioner, what legacy would he like to leave?

Mr X Nqola (ANC) asked if the SAHRC has a role to play in promoting social cohesion in the country. The Commission has been criticised for not having the teeth to execute its mandate and doing nothing to protect and promote human rights – does the candidate think this narrative is correct or justified? What does the candidate think the Commission should do to improve cooperation and coordination with other Chapter 9 institutions and civil society. Why does the candidate think this coordination will be of importance. What is the role of the Deputy Chairperson and is this role important in the Commission?

Ms N Maseko-Jele (ANC) in a follow-up question asked what the candidate's experience were some of South Africa’s achievements in advancing human rights. Many communities are still marginalised and do not have access to their full human rights and may lack awareness. What innovative means would the candidate adopt to promote access and awareness of human rights? How would the candidate handle complaints that may be potentially politically sensitive or controversial in light of the SAHRC's role?

Ms T Msane (EFF) asked what innovations he would wish to introduce in the human rights space as his legacy if appointed. How does the candidate plan on bringing the interests of South African youth into the human rights space. If appointed, the candidate would need to lead others. How would the candidate describe his leadership style. The candidate should provide an example of when he has successfully led and how has this leadership benefitted the ordinary South African? Can the candidate give an example of successfully using a democratic centralism leadership style? What support skills does the candidate think are most effective when it comes to supporting leadership of an organisation such as the Commission?

Mr R Dyantyi (ANC) asked the candidate which section of the Constitution deals with the appointment of Commissioners.

Mr Dyantyi said Section 193 of the Constitution states: "the members of any Commission established by this Chapter must be women or men who ­are South African citizens; are fit and proper persons to hold the particular office". Why does it emphasise women or men and not a person? What is the candidate's understanding of a fit and proper person? He asked if the candidate was a fit and proper candidate for the position. Has the SAHRC been successful in executing its mandate and why? In the candidate's view, what are one or two focus areas requiring improvement at the SAHRC. How would the candidate execute plans in the context of the new normal with much fewer resources. He asked the candidate's previous experience in handling complaints at the Commission.

The Chairperson asked if the candidate believed in gender equality. There are eight Commissioners but there is only one woman. Why should the candidate be appointed?

The Chairperson asked if the candidate thought the questions were fair and happy with the way the interview unfolded. He reminded the candidate to submit his fingerprints. He thanked the candidate who would be advised as soon as a decision is made.

Candidate 2: Ms Philile Ntuli  
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate and asked if the candidate had a criminal record and was ever declared insolvent. He asked if the candidate knew the salary of a Commissioner.

Mr Swart asked the candidate about her understanding of the Commission's constitutional duty and the key statutory mandate, powers and functions. What is the candidate's understanding of the powers that the SAHRC has to fulfil its mandate. The SAHRC has faced many challenges in fulfilling its mandate. He asked the candidate to share some of those challenges and how she would mitigate those if appointed. How would the candidate deal with the budgetary constraints facing the SAHRC. What is the candidate's understanding of when a number of human rights had to be curtailed during the COVID-19 State of Disaster as there were a number of court cases. How would the candidate deal with the delicate balance between public health and private human rights?

Ms Mofokeng asked the candidate what could be done by the SAHRC to combat the scourge of racism, xenophobia and related intolerances and gender-based violence and femicide which are undermining South Africa’s human rights culture. What suggestions would the candidate make to improve public understanding of the role of Chapter 9 institutions. What is the candidate's understanding of the role SAHRC should play, particularly in parliamentary processes? What is the role of the National Assembly in supporting the SAHRC?

Ms N Maseko-Jele (ANC) asked what the candidate thought were some of South Africa’s achievements in advancing human rights. What innovative means would the candidate adopt to promote access to and awareness of human rights? How would the candidate handle complaints that may be potentially politically sensitive or controversial in light of the SAHRC's role?

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked for the candidate's view on the critical human rights issues facing South Africa. Given the COVID-19 pandemic, there are serious limitations on the Commission. This has placed the spotlight on the role of the state during the pandemic. What is the candidate's view on the key human rights challenges that have emerged during the pandemic. Has the SAHRC response to the COVID-19 pandemic been enough? Are there lessons that should be learnt? Each Commissioner has a focus area, what are two critical areas that the candidate would like to focus on if appointed as Commissioner?

Mr X Nqola (ANC) asked if the SAHRC has a role to play in promoting social cohesion in the country. The Commission has been criticised for not having teeth to execute its mandate and doing nothing to protect and promote human rights – does the candidate think this narrative is correct and justified? What does the candidate think the Commission should do to improve cooperation and coordination with other Chapter 9 institutions and civil society and why does the candidate think this coordination is of importance. What is the candidate's understanding of a fair and viable limitation on human rights?

Ms T Msane (EFF) asked what innovations the candidate would wish to introduce in the human rights space as a legacy if appointed. How does the candidate plan on bringing the interests of South African youth into the human rights space. If appointed, the candidate would need to lead others. How would the candidate describe her leadership style. The candidate should provide an example of when she has successfully led and how has this leadership benefitted the ordinary South African? What support skills does the candidate think are most effective when it comes to supporting leadership of an organisation such as the Commission?

Adv G Breytenbach (DA) asked why the candidate thought the Constitution requires the Commission to be independent and impartial and why it protects the Commission's independence.

Mr Dyantyi asked the candidate which section of the Constitution deals with the appointment of Commissioners.

Mr Dyantyi said Section 193 of the Constitution states: "the members of any Commission established by this Chapter must be women or men who ­are South African citizens; are fit and proper persons to hold the particular office". Why does it emphasise women or men and not a person? What is the candidate's understanding of a fit and proper person? He asked if the candidate was a fit and proper candidate for the position and why should the panel recommend her. Has the SAHRC been successful in executing its mandate and why? In the candidate's own view, what are one or two focus areas requiring improvement in the SAHRC. He asked how the candidate if appointed would handle someone who hates activists?

The Chairperson asked if there was any issue which could compromise the integrity of the candidate or the Commission if appointed?

The Chairperson asked if the candidate thought the questions were fair and was happy with the way the interview unfolded. He thanked the candidate who would be advised as soon as a decision is made.

Candidate 3: Ms Ferial Adam
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate and if appointed, can she convince the Committee she would be able to step into the role. He asked the candidate to tell the Committee about herself, her values and experience. He asked if the candidate had a criminal record or was declared insolvent at any stage. Was the candidate aware of the salary of a Commissioner?

Adv G Breytenbach (DA) asked why the candidate thought the Constitution requires the Commission to be independent and impartial and why does it protect the Commission's independence. If the candidate is appointed as Commissioner, what legacy would she like to leave?

Ms Mofokeng asked the candidate what could be done by the SAHRC to combat the scourge of racism, xenophobia and related intolerances and gender-based violence and femicide which are undermining South Africa’s human rights culture. What suggestions would the candidate make to improve public understanding of the role of Chapter 9 institutions. What is the candidate's understanding of the role SAHRC should play, particularly in parliamentary processes? Does the Commission have enough support from Parliament?

Mr Swart asked the candidate about her understanding of the Commission's constitutional duty and the key statutory mandate, powers and functions. What is the candidate's understanding of the powers that the SAHRC has to fulfil its mandate. The SAHRC has faced many challenges in fulfilling its mandate. He asked the candidate to share some of those challenges and how she would mitigate those if appointed. How would the candidate deal with the budgetary constraints facing the SAHRC. Does the candidate feel the SAHRC could have done more given the COVID-19 pandemic limitations on human rights? The heavy-handed approach by soldiers and law enforcement agencies meant a number of citizens had to resort to the courts. One would have thought that perhaps the SAHRC could have done more to protect basic human rights under those severe lockdown conditions.

Ms N Maseko-Jele (ANC) asked what in the candidate's experience were some of South Africa’s achievements in advancing human rights. What innovative means would the candidate adopt to promote access to and awareness of human rights? How would the candidate handle complaints that may be potentially politically sensitive or controversial in light of the SAHRC's role?

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked for the candidate's view on the critical human rights issues facing South Africa. Given the COVID-19 pandemic, there are serious limitations on the Commission. Each Commissioner has a focus area, what would the candidate like to focus on if appointed as Commissioner and what focus areas would the candidate like to consider in future? What would the candidate do in handling the environment as a focus area?

Mr X Nqola (ANC) asked if the SAHRC has a role to play in promoting social cohesion in the country. The Commission has been criticised for not having teeth to execute its mandate and doing nothing to protect and promote human rights – does the candidate think this narrative is correct and justified? What does the candidate think the Commission should do to improve cooperation and coordination with other Chapter 9 institutions and civil society and why does the candidate think this coordination is of importance. What is the role of the Deputy Chairperson and why is it important in the Commission?

Ms T Msane (EFF) asked what innovations the candidate would wish to introduce in the human rights space as a legacy if appointed. How does the candidate plan on bringing the interests of South African youth into the human rights space. If appointed, the candidate would need to lead others. How would the candidate describe her leadership style. The candidate should provide an example of when she has successfully led and how has this leadership benefitted the ordinary South African? What support skills does the candidate think are most effective when it comes to supporting leadership of an organisation such as the Commission?

Mr Dyantyi asked the candidate which section of the Constitution deals with the appointment of Commissioners.

Mr Dyantyi said Section 193 of the Constitution states: "the members of any Commission established by this Chapter must be women or men who ­are South African citizens; are fit and proper persons to hold the particular office". Why does it emphasise women or men and not a person? What is the candidate's understanding of a fit and proper person? He asked if the candidate was a fit and proper candidate for the position. What value would the candidate bring to the Commission if appointed? Has the SAHRC been successful in executing its mandate and why? In the candidate's view, what are one or two focus areas requiring improvement in the SAHRC. How would the candidate relate to and deal with complaints from people who are not activists and hate activists.

The Chairperson asked if there was anything the candidate wanted to declare which could cast her and thus the Commission in a bad light?

The Chairperson asked if the candidate thought the questions were fair and if she was happy with the way the interview unfolded. He thanked the candidate for availing herself for the interview. The candidate would be advised as soon as a decision is made.

Candidate 4: Ms Nomfundo Ntloko-Gobodo
The Chairperson welcomed the candidate. He asked can she convince the Committee she would be able to step into the role of Commissioner if appointed. He asked the candidate to tell the Committee about herself, her values and experience. He asked if the candidate had a criminal record or was declared insolvent at any stage. Was the candidate aware of the salary of a Commissioner?

Ms N Maseko-Jele (ANC) asked what the candidate thought were some of South Africa’s achievements in advancing human rights. Many communities within society, particularly those in former marginalised areas still face challenges in accessing human rights. What innovative means would the candidate adopt to promote access to and awareness of human rights? How would the candidate handle complaints that may be potentially politically sensitive or controversial in light of the SAHRC's role?

Adv G Breytenbach (DA) asked why the candidate thought the Constitution requires the Commission to be independent and impartial and why it protects the Commission's independence. If the candidate is appointed as Commissioner, what legacy would she like to leave?

Ms Mofokeng asked what the candidate's understanding was of the role the SAHRC should play, particularly in parliamentary processes? What is the role of the National Assembly in supporting the SAHRC? What is the candidate's understanding of the role of the Chapter 9 institutions and how can they become more visible? What could be done by the SAHRC to combat the scourge of racism, xenophobia and related intolerances and gender-based violence and femicide which are undermining South Africa’s human rights culture.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked the candidate's view on the critical human rights challenges facing South Africa. Each Commissioner has a focus area, what would the candidate like to focus on if appointed and what focus areas would the candidate like to consider in future? COVID-19 caused a limitation on human rights in the interests of the greater good. This put a spotlight on the role of the state. What are the key human rights issues that emerged during that time. Was the SAHRC response adequate? What lessons can we learn from this?

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen replied to the candidate that she should not forget about the rights of children with disabilities when the candidate said she was passionate about children’s rights.

Ms T Msane (EFF) asked what innovations the candidate would wish to introduce in the human rights space as a legacy if appointed. How does the candidate plan on bringing the interests of South African youth into the human rights space. If appointed, the candidate would need to lead others. How would the candidate describe her leadership style. The candidate should provide an example of when she has successfully led and how has this leadership benefitted the ordinary South African? What support skills does the candidate think are most effective when it comes to supporting leadership of an organisation such as the Commission?

Mr Dyantyi asked the candidate which section of the Constitution deals with the appointment of Commissioners.

Mr Dyantyi said Section 193 of the Constitution states: "the members of any Commission established by this Chapter must be women or men who ­are South African citizens; are fit and proper persons to hold the particular office". Why does it emphasise women or men and not a person? What is the candidate's understanding of a fit and proper person? He asked if the candidate was a fit and proper candidate for the position. What value would the candidate bring to the Commission if appointed? Has the SAHRC been successful in executing its mandate and why? In the candidate's view, what are one or two focus areas requiring improvement in the SAHRC.

The Chairperson asked if there was anything the candidate wanted to declare which could cast her and thus the Commission in a bad light?

The Chairperson asked if the candidate if the questions were fair and if she was happy with the way the interview unfolded. He thanked the candidate who would be advised as soon as a decision is made.

Candidate 5: Adv Andre Gaum
The Chairperson asked if the candidate was appointed as a Commissioner, how would he convince the Committee that he would be able to step into the role. He asked the candidate to tell the Committee about himself, his values and experience. He asked if the candidate had a criminal record or was declared insolvent at any stage.

The Chairperson asked if the candidate believed in gender equality. Given the fact that there is only one woman in the Commission, why should the candidate be recommended for appointment?

Adv G Breytenbach (DA) asked why the candidate thought the Constitution requires the Commission to be independent and impartial and why it protects the Commission's independence. If the candidate is appointed as Commissioner, what legacy would he like to leave?

Mr Swart said he had served with Adv Gaum as a Member of Parliament.

Mr Swart asked the candidate about his understanding of the Commission's constitutional duty and the key statutory mandate, powers and functions. What is the candidate's understanding of the powers that the SAHRC has to fulfil its mandate. The SAHRC has faced many challenges in fulfilling its mandate. Share some of those challenges and how you would mitigate those should you be appointed. How would he ensure compliance so the Commission receives reports?

The Chairperson said he served with Adv Gaum as a Member of Parliament.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen said she also knew the candidate from Parliament.

Ms Newhoudt-Druchen asked the candidate's view on the critical human rights challenges facing South Africa. Each Commissioner has a focus area, what has the candidate focused on and what focus areas would the candidate like to consider in future? COVID-19 caused a limitation on human rights in the interests of the greater good. This put a spotlight on the role of the state. What are the key human rights issues that emerged during that time. Was the SAHRC response adequate? What lessons can we learn from this?

Ms N Maseko-Jele (ANC) asked what the candidate thought were some of South Africa’s achievements in advancing human rights. Many communities within society, particularly those in former marginalised areas still face challenges in accessing their human rights. What innovative means would the candidate adopt to promote access to and awareness of human rights? How would the candidate handle complaints that may be potentially politically sensitive or controversial in light of the SAHRC's role? She asked the candidate's view on Covid-19 personal protective equipment corruption that has affected South Africans.

Mr X Nqola (ANC) asked if the SAHRC has a role to play in promoting social cohesion in the country. The Commission has been criticised for not having teeth to execute its mandate and doing nothing to protect and promote human rights, does the candidate think this narrative is correct and justified? Would the candidate be able to leave his comfort zone and serve the Commission when required? What is the candidate's understanding of a reasonable and justifiable limitation on human rights? 

Ms T Msane (EFF) asked what innovations the candidate would wish to introduce in the human rights space as a legacy if appointed. How does the candidate plan on bringing the interests of South African youth into the human rights space. If appointed, the candidate would need to lead others. How would the candidate describe his leadership style. The candidate should provide an example of when he has successfully led and how has this leadership benefitted the ordinary South African? What support skills does the candidate think are most effective when it comes to supporting leadership of an organisation such as the Commission?
She asked what he thought about the human rights of refugees in the country.

Ms Mofokeng asked if the information manuals promoting knowledge about the SAHRC are in all official languages? Why is the Commission not popular with African people in particular. Given the scourge of gender-based violence and women who have not been assisted in the courts, how many women has the Commission assisted? What is the Commission's relationship with other Chapter 9 institutions and what inter-relations are there? Why does the Commission wait for a GBV matter to be referred to it before intervening. What can be done to improve monitoring and evaluation?

Mr Dyantyi asked the candidate which section of the Constitution deals with the appointment of Commissioners.

Mr Dyantyi said Section 193 of the Constitution states: "the members of any Commission established by this Chapter must be women or men who ­are South African citizens; are fit and proper persons to hold the particular office". Why does it emphasise women or men and not a person? Should this section be reviewed and removed?

The Chairperson asked if there was anything the candidate wanted to declare which could cast him and the Commission in a bad light?

The Chairperson asked if the candidate thought the questions were fair and he was happy with the way the interview unfolded. He thanked the candidate who would be advised as soon as a decision is made.

The meeting was adjourned. The interviews would resume the following day.

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