Dod & Dmv Budget: Committee Reports

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Defence and Military Veterans

15 July 2020
Chairperson: Mr V Xaba (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

Video: Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans, 15 July 2020

Tabled Committee Reports

The Committee met to consider its Reports on the 2020 Speical Adjustments Budget for Vote 23: Defence and Vote 26: Military Veterans. Members asked for clarity on the amounts in the Reports. It was said the debate of budget cuts is not new and requested that the Committee should avoid pressing the panic button on the issue as the situation is not normal. First, a message may need to be sent to the United Nations that due to COVID-19, some of the operations on peace keeping missions may not be possible as the country has to use its money first. Claiming the money back takes time. It may be necessary to call for high levels of discipline in using money allocated for the Department of Defence (DOD). The Department has a history of sending money back to Treasury. Frustration was expressed that the Committee has made recommendations to the defence leadership for years. The selection of a new leader should be sped up to re energise the Department.

Additional recommendations were made for the Department to provide the Committee with a spreadsheet for it to perform oversight. This Committee has to see that women, young people and generally disadvantaged people are given opportunities. This should go beyond the COVID-19 pandemic. Zero-based budgeting was discussed for fiscal discipline.

Regarding military veterans, Members questioned the reduction in budget for conferences and the repeated calls by the Committee that the Department failed to service veterans which was as a result of lack of leadership.

On the programme for the next term, Members discussed a possible oversight visit and the need for a closed session. Members requested an update on the Kohisan Self Defence Unit.

Meeting report

Report of the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans on the 2020 Special Adjustments Budget for Vote 23 Defence

The Committee Researcher took Members through the Report.

Deliberations

The Chairperson invited comments.

Mr S Marais (DA) asked for clarity on the amounts in question. Did the Department request R4.5 billion and Treasury gave R4.09 billion in the adjustment budget? The presentation referred to R3 billion. Is it only R2.88 billion in terms of the amounts the researcher has given? He wanted to make sure of the amounts in the adjustment budget.

Dr B Holomisa (UDM) said the debate of budget cuts is not new and requested that the Committee should avoid pressing the panic button on the issue as the situation is not normal. First, a message may need to be sent to the United Nations that due to COVID-19, some of the operations on peace keeping missions may not be possible as the country has to use its money first. Claiming the money back takes time. Sometimes penalties are imposed when the equipment is not up to standard. The priority is now on South Africans and South African soldiers. Secondly, it may be necessary to call for high levels of discipline in using money allocated for the Department of Defence (DOD). The Department has a history of sending money back to Treasury and it gives funny excuses. Government, especially the study group of the ANC in defence, needs to assist the country because it is frustrating how many times this Committee has made recommendations to the defence leadership for years. To keep people in leadership positions for a long time in this Department is costly. Earlier, the presenter said the Minister and Commander tend to ignore the Department’s invitations or account to the Committee. The selection of a new leader should be sped up to re energise the Department.

Mr T Mmutle (ANC) welcomed the Report. A recommendation is needed that in addition, the Department must also give the Committee a spreadsheet for it to perform oversight to see that the Department is implementing the transformational agenda and to see that there is no cartel in the procurement of the defence force. This Committee has to see that women, young people and generally disadvantaged people are given opportunities. This should go beyond the COVID-19 pandemic. Secondly, on AMSCOR, the Committee made a recommendation regarding budgeting over the years but making comparisons does not assist so a zero-based budget methodology should be used. Economic conditions do not allow for the current method of budgeting. Zero based budgeting will allow the Department to work with what it has.

Mr D Ryder (DA, Gauteng) said that the quality of Report and time frames are excellent. He said that Mr Marais covered what he had to say, and that fiscal discipline is needed. Zero- based budgeting should apply across the board in the Department. The Department is dealing with an unfunded organogram, so one has to to go back to the drawing board and reassess what the Department is doing compared to what Treasury expects. While the Report is accurate, the fact of the matter is that the employment letters from the President are setting this Department up for failure. As such, the budget itself is problematic and cannot be supported although the Report itself is excellent. Any MP should reconsider before accepting this budget as it is.

The Committee Researcher responded that the R3 billion in the document itself should be corrected from ‘approximately R3 billion’ to a stated ‘R2.8 billion’. It was just to keep in line with what the Department presented last week. It can be included in the recommendations that zero based budgeting should be adopted, that the required spreadsheet regarding procurement should be provided, as well as the recommendation on fiscal discipline.

The Chairperson said that he notes Gen. Holomisa’s comment on the appointment of new leaders - the process is under way. On fiscal discipline, that is well noted. In the last two years, the Department has been reporting a deficit and that might happen in the 2019/2020 financial year and may be a trend going forward. It has been taking money from other programmes and shifting to Compensation of Employees because that is where the spending pressure is. Mr Mmutle was correct that women, youth, and the disadvantaged should be considered, and one should see transformation in those categories. Zero based budgeting should be seen in the current Medium Term Expenditure Framework and the same thing will apply to the Department’s entities as well.

Mr Marais proposed that Report be adopted.

The Members concurred.

Report of the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans on the 2020 Special Adjustments Budget For Vote 26 Military Veterans

The Committee Content Advisor took Members through the Report.

Deliberation

The Chairperson asked if Members believed the Report captured the essence of what was discussed.

Mr M Shelembe (DA) confirmed this but said there are issues not covered. If it is said the budget for conferences for statutory bodies has been reduced, what was the initial budget? One sees the reduction is R21m. The Department said it would ensure that houses are allocated to military veterans, but something is missing - what will happen to houses that were illegally occupied because a lot of money was spent on them? Will they be written off or be returned to the Department?

Mr Mmutle said that a statement must be made on the observations or recommendations because this has been said over and over again regarding the Department’s inability to service veterans as a result of lack of leadership. It will show the concern of the Committee.  

The Content Advisor responded that statutory bodies are a separate issue from conferences. How it was presented is that the budget for elective conferences of military veterans will be cut but it was never said from which platform it was moving so no other figure was given. On the houses matter, the Department only mentioned what it will do going forward but made no mention of what happens with illegally occupied houses. It can be added to the recommendations that next time it includes this. On Mr Mmutle’s recommendation, it is good and should be added and highlighted in the Report.

The Chairperson said the inability to perform has led to the Department not spending the money and exposing it to hefty reductions by Treasury. It got this reduction because of its history of under spending coupled with an inability to deliver part of its mandate.

The Report was adopted.

Committee Programme

The Chairperson said that the programme has been developed but it is not solid because the framework for the term has not yet been given. Initially the term was six weeks but now it is three so that affects the programme. A lot of what will be in the third quarter are matters that were flagged in the first two quarters.

The Committee Secretary added that the programme was drafted before changes were made so Members can ignore the dates on the programme. The third programme is said to begin on 18 August - 4 September but that is subject to change.

Dr Holomisa proposed that before the Committee meets to discuss the agenda, the defence leadership should be engaged and a few Members of the Committee should be sent on site visits to the borders and defence leaders can transport Members by helicopter or plane as it will be quicker. This would also minimise chances of infection amongst Members.

Mr Marais supported Gen. Holomisa. The one shortfall is that Members will probably depart from Waterkloof so it should interact with the 28 squadron. Certain matters can only be discussed in a closed session but that may not be possible in the third quarter.

Mr Mmutle supported the General’s  proposal and added that the Committee can be divided into two groups and can identify an area for example, the Eastern Cape, and perform oversight there or areas where the Department is building field hospitals to see where the resources are going.

Mr J Maake (ANC) asked to be reminded about the matter regarding the Khoisan Self Defence Unit.

The Chairperson responded that the Khoisan Self Defence unit wrote to the Speaker that a Bill be introduced in Parliament to see that some of them who could not be integrated in the National Defence Force should be integrated. The matter even went to court but the court ruled against it. The Public Protector also stated that there is no basis for the complaint. That law had been repealed in 2001 so that is why they wrote to the Speaker. The Committee was supposed to meet with the Unit but it could not happen, so it has since been rescheduled. There are forces within the community that had started recruited people and solicited money so that they can be a part of this body, but this will be discussed in the meeting.

The SACC itself should be listened to as it has written to the Committee and said that the Khoisan Unit does not represent it so there are numerous views regarding this matter. The two bodies probably will not be brought simultaneously as chaos might ensue.

On closed sessions, section 59 of the Constitution states that the National Assembly should facilitate public involvement in the legislative and other processes of the Assembly and its Committees; and conduct its business in an open manner, and hold its sittings, and those of its Committees, in public. This is a matter that Parliament is grappling with as to whether that will be possible. The Chairperson said he was still interacting with the legalities.

Gen. Holomisa said that the Chairperson can sit with Mr Marais in case he has information that may not require that other people be present. The Act is flexible.

Mr Marais said that he has no problem discussing with the Chairperson on these matters.

The Committee Secretary said closed sessions are possible but strict conditions as to why it should be closed should be given and Presiding Officers should give guidance regarding the matter.

 The Chairperson thanked the Members and adjourned the meeting.

 

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