CRL Rights Commission & Municipal Demarcation Board 2021/22 Annual Reports

This premium content has been made freely available

Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs

11 October 2022
Chairperson: Mr F Xasa (ANC)
Share this page:

Meeting Summary

Video (Part 1)

Video (Part 2)

CRL Rights Commission

Municipal Demarcation Board

In presenting its 2021/22 Annual Report, the CRL Rights Commission highlighted some of the challenges experienced but expressed its determination to commit and pursue its mandate. The Commission achieved an unqualified audit opinion. The 2020 pandemic highly affected the performance of the Commission as there was limited ability to carry out outlined objectives. There were also challenges of finance, and initiation schools in the country. The issue of initiation schools was said to be a sore subject, and with the upcoming season, the CRL was anxious because of the inevitable deaths. As such, to try and combat the situation, a national Indaba had been planned to find ways to come up with sustainable solutions to the problem because such occurrences undermine and bring disgrace to the noble culture of initiation. The Commission also committed to working towards being visible to ensure that the public was aware of its existence and to understand its functions to assist with ongoing challenges and those that may arise. They also sought to resolve the issues around religious and cultural practices in the country, as there were still ongoing contentions.

Committee Members were impressed by the functioning of the Commission, in comparison to other government entities. They, however, expressed their displeasure about the issues of unregulated churches which turned into drug dens by night, the regulation of cultural practices that restricted freedom of practice and the issue around languages that did not receive equal recognition.

In presenting its 2021/22 Annual Report, the Municipal Demarcation Board gave an overview of the Board's performance indicating that the entity had received a clean audit for four consecutive years and that there were plans to intensify awareness programmes that would ensure communities are reached. This was because the past performance of the Board revealed that there was social conflict and displeasure which needed to be addressed. The interactions with communities yielded positive results, and as such, the Board's objective was to also consult with other stakeholders, particularly traditional leadership in provinces like KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape. A report on norms and standards for all municipal powers and functions had also been completed and capacity assessments were being conducted and reported on. However, the setback was the entity’s dependence on a third party, as certain municipalities responded late or not at all.

Meeting report

CRL Rights Commission Annual Report 2021/22

The Chairperson opened the meeting with a moment of prayer and meditation. He stated that the CRL Rights Commission, through the Minister, tabled its 202111/22 annual report and financial statements in line with the instructions of the Public Finance Management Act. The Portfolio Committee was doing a follow-up on some of the issues that came up after interacting with the Auditor-General.

CRL chairperson remarks

In his opening remarks, Prof Luka Mosoma, Chairperson, CRL Rights Commission, said he was happy that the Commission was hosting the Committee at its  Braamfontein premises. He stated that the CRL solely existed to pursue its mandate both as enshrined in the Constitution and the Act. He explained that the COVID-19 pandemic had a constraining effect on the work of the CRL, especially on how it should be doing its work because of the lockdown and its finances. The second challenge has been and continues to be the prevalent abuse in cultural and religious communities. This includes the abuse of men, women and children which has a damning effect on the way the CRL does its work. The third challenge is the initiation schools in the country. He said that the CRL became anxious every initiation season because of the inevitable deaths. As a result, the entity was planning a national Indaba to find ways to develop sustainable solutions to this problem because such occurrences undermine and bring disgrace to the noble culture of initiation in the country. He highlighted that it was important not to just stand when seeing young people go to waste and die in such an important cultural environment. A five-year strategic plan with five pillars was underway, which was underpinned by cooperative governance, sound financial management, issue substructure, investigations, conflict resolutions and public engagement necessary to foster better understanding and conscientisation of the society to understand the need to live together as a community or society united in our diversity.

CRL Rights Commission Annual Report briefing

Mr Edward Mafadza, Chief Executive Officer, CRL Rights Commission, gave the presentation.

The Commission achieved an unqualified audit opinion.

Summary of Results on the 2021/22 annual targets per programme

Programme 1: Administration - the Commission had eight targets, but only six of them, making it a 75%achivement.

 

Programme 2: Legal Services and Conflict Resolution (LSCR) - Under this programme, the Commission had five targets planned but achieved three targets, resulting in 60% achievement.

Brief Descriptive Highlights

Complaints Handling

  • 68 complaints received.
  • 34 were on religion, 33 on culture, and only one on language.
  • 58 cases were finalised, i.e. for the year under review.

 

Carried over cases from the 2020/2021 financial year

  • 20 cases were carried over and 18 of these were finalised.
  • Two are still in progress due to their complexities and are carried over to the 2022/23 financial year.

Legislative Reviews

The Bills are Cannabis for Private Purpose Bill and The Witchcraft Suppression Act

Review of By-laws

15 by-laws have been reviewed

Slaughtering of animals for cultural and religious purposes

  • City of Joburg, Ekurhuleni, and City of Cape Town Metropolitan Municipalities – The period for application for the slaughtering of animals must be revised to accommodate slaughtering for funerals, which is a traditional or cultural practice to cultural and religious communities.
  • Nelson Mandela Bay Metropolitan Municipality - by-law relating to the slaughtering of animals should outline the procedures explicitly to be followed.
  • The City of Tshwane and eThekwini Metropolitan municipalities should develop by-laws relating to cultural and religious slaughtering or revise their current by-laws relating to keeping animals to include cultural and religious slaughtering.
  • Customary initiation schools by laws.

Buffalo city metropolitan municipality - no by-law relating to a customary initiation school.

Programme 3: Public Engagement and Education (PEE) - Three targets were planned for this programme and there was a 100% achievement.

Brief Descriptive Highlights

  • 25 engagements with Communities under the theme, ‘helping communities develop their diminished heritage’
  • Engaged with the Bakone Royal Council in Mpumalanga within the area of jurisdiction of Kgoshi Mashego in Bushbuckridge and Limpopo (Senwabarwana and Makwarela, i.e. (Vhembe District Municipality)
  • Engaged with Khoisan Communities in Limpopo (Polokwane), Mpumalanga (Mbombela and eMalahleni), Free State (Mangaung), Western Cape (Elsiereviere, Lamberts Bay, Saldanha Bay, and Drakenstein) and in several other areas in Gauteng.

The unit also conducted engagements with the Muslim communities:

  • Stakeholder engagement with the South African Hajj and Umrah Council (SAHUC) and the Muslim Religious leaders on the religious rights of Muslim communities.
  • 20 awareness campaigns with communities under the theme 'promoting cultural diversity in our local communities and 'promotion of religious diversity.' The campaigns were conducted in the following provinces:
  • Northwest (Haartebeesfontein, Jourbetina, Alabama, Khuma, Bloemhof) and in the Eastern Cape: Libode, Mamulweni, Nyandeni, and Ngqeleni.

Programme 4:  Research and Policy Development (RPD) - In this programme, the Commission set for itself four targets and again achieved 100%.

Highlights

Four research Reports: Is African Traditional Religion equivalent to Traditional Healing?

Objectives

  • To understand African Traditional Religion as a religion.
  • To explore how African Traditional Religion can be elevated to the same equal status as all other religions.
  • To understand why is African Traditional Religion always represented and talked about during debates and ceremonies by other people, like Traditional healers, and not by its followers?

Recommendations

  • African Traditional Healing and African Traditional Religion are two separate institutions and should never be mixed up.
  • African Religion must be promoted and,   where possible, be more documented.
  • The Department of Health should promote the profession of traditional healing to the same level as it does with western doctors.

Resuscitation of African Cultural Values

Objectives

  • To explore how communities could resuscitate their cultural values.
  • To understand how African cultural values could complement and promote social cohesion, moral regeneration, and nation building?
  • To devise strategies for how communities could resuscitate the core value of Ubuntu?

Recommendations

  • Core values should be cultivated in the family unit and community targeting young people at an early age.
  • The Department of Education and Higher Learning should promote African values and ensure they form part of schools’ and universities’ curriculums.
  • Traditional leadership should be given the space and be supported in a conscious effort to assert African historical traditions, values, and consciousness.
  • The competition that exists between the rights bestowed on us by the Constitution and customary law on rights and values needs to be relooked at and a scientific study should be conducted to promote values from both these two systems of laws equally.

The Constitutional Rights of Unmarried Biological Fathers within the CRL Community Rights in a diverse country

Objectives

  • To understand the cultural communities' rights and traditions against the backdrop of the constitutional court ruling, awarding the biological unmarried fathers' rights to register their child with his surname.
  • To hear from different cultural communities if biological unmarried fathers have rights according to their culture?
  • To understand the cultural process practiced/followed in a case where a child is born from two unmarried people?

Recommendations

  • In matters that affect the Constitution and cultures of people, the Constitutional Court should consult with cultural experts and traditional leaders to hear their counsel before pronouncing on matters that affect people’s cultures and way of life.
  • Efforts must be made by the Courts to align their judgements with the cultural, religious, and traditional beliefs of all South African citizens.

Programme 5:  Communication and Marketing, IT and Linkages- There were targets set for this programme, and all of them were achieved, resulting in 100% achievement.

  • Overall, the CRL had a total of 23 planned targets and achieved 19 of them, leading to an 82% achievement of targets for the year under review.

Financial Performance 

Reasons for underspending

  • In respect of employee cost, the underspending is a result of vacancies that were filled during the last quarter of the financial year.

 

Regarding goods and services, the savings resulted from: The internal audit service appointed in the fourth quarter.

 

  • A provision in respect of retained earnings that had to be reversed.
  • A reduction in the scope of the external audit due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Irregular Expenditure

  • No additional irregular expenditure was reported during the year under review.
  • The past irregular expenditure was investigated and a request for condonement was made to National Treasury. The outcome of the request is still awaited.

Fruitless and Wasteful Expenditure

  • No new cases of fruitless and wasteful expenditure were reported during the year under review.
  • The disciplinary processes in respect of wasteful expenditure are underway.
  • The recoverability of wasteful expenditure is currently being investigated.

[See attachment for a complete CRL Commission presentation]

Discussion

Ms H Mkhaliphi (EFF) highlighted that during the CRL Rights Commission meeting held on 28 April 2021, attention was drawn to a meeting which happened in November 2020 where it was reported that the Public Service Commission was assisting in investigating irregular expenditure amounting to R933.8 million due to an irregular appointment of an internal audit service provider. She stated that the Commission responded that an investigation was still underway and asked if this was still the case.

She expressed that she was happy that Mr Mafadza shared in detail about the communities visited and asked how the specific communities had been chosen and the criteria used as all communities in the country needed such visits from the CRL. She added that it was understandable that the Commission could not reach every community due to capacity constraints. The presentation also indicated that the CRL was concerned that there had not been a visit to the Eastern Cape, and so wanted to show its footprint there. She said other areas also needed the Commission’s footprint and asked for clarification on the criteria used.  

She highlighted that there was also a burning issue about churches that were not regulated, and asked how far the issue was, and whether it had been resolved, as it seemed that anyone could decide to open a church and use it as a money-making scheme. Moreover, there have been incidents in some churches where people have been fed snakes, paraffin, and so forth in the name of God. At some point, communities were up in arms taking the law into their hands to address such issues. She inquired about the status of such allegations.

The Commission also mentioned that it did not meet its targets because one of the municipalities had not dealt with by-laws on slaughtering. She said that handling slaughtering would create problems in the culture because it has been suggested that the current by-laws be amended to accommodate slaughtering in funerals. However, Africans do not just slaughter for funerals only. She explained that she did not blame the entity as by-laws were to be respected and followed, but as a commission, the CRL should have another approach. She added that Africans also slaughter for traditional ceremonies but the by-laws restrict such practises as they are required to apply for permission because their neighbours may not subscribe to the same culture, and according to the law, they have the right to complain. She stated that this was a culture violation, asked how this was dealt with because the law itself is problematic, and added that the CRL should have a way of approaching the problem.

She stated that there was a serious problem at some point because communities chased away foreign nationals for various reasons. Part of government intervention was to educate South Africans that citizens in the country are Africans, and must co-exist peacefully. She inquired about the programmes in place to facilitate such. She said that such problems arise when communities are experiencing unemployment, poverty and many other socio-economic challenges, leading them to shift the blame to foreign nationals. She asked how the CRL intervened in such cases because communities need to co-exist peacefully.

Mr B Hadebe (ANC) also expressed concern that citizens who observe their cultures through slaughtering animals had to apply for permission, yet those who observe theirs through braais do not have to seek permission. He mentioned that there was still a long way to go in addressing cultural imbalances and asked whether people had to apply for a permit to slaughter a cow during a funeral when others are not compelled to do so when observing their cultures. He asked if cultures were so dangerous that they needed to be regulated and how then it was fully possible that one could practice their culture. He said it was concerning that the City of Tshwane did not have by-laws and asked what needed to occur before such cities had by-laws and whether they were antagonistic towards the approach. He expressed that the regulation of culture did not go well with him especially considering that one has to ask for permission from someone unrelated to it. He asked if those responsible for looking at the applications were able to grasp the cultural background of applicants and whether there had been instances where applications were declined and what the basis was.

He highlighted that concerning the Western Cape, the only one that was not visited was Elsies River. He further indicated that he had thought the Cape Flats would have also been mentioned because the area is known for drug abuse. He inquired about the criteria used to select places.

He commended the Commission for not incurring fruitless and wasteful expenditures in the current year under review. However, he highlighted that the report indicates that there had been R11.9 million and R1.6 million in irregular expenditures from previous years. The report also specifies that the CRL applied for condonation, as this has been an ongoing issue. He asked when the application had been done and why it took a long time to get the condonation from National Treasury. He said that only two cases were said to be almost concluded, and asked if these were the only cases of fruitless and wasteful expenditure.

Referring to the use of official languages, he asked why the focus had only been on the public organs of the state, if the Commission was interested in seeing only these institutions use all the officials and whether the private sector had been considered.

He said he was interested in the review of cannabis use for private purposes and witchcraft laws and asked about the findings derived from the reviews concerning the impact on the cultural, religious and linguistic communities. He asked for the impact of the review to be shared and added that he was surprised that everything was being legislated including witchcraft.

Ms P Xaba-Ntshaba (ANC) spoke about fake churches that erect tents wherever they can find a spot and sell drugs at night, particularly in Ivory Park. She asked what the CRL was doing to address such actions as young lives were being destroyed by drug abuse and that instead of regulating cultures, the CRL should focus on fake foreign-run churches. She said the CRL could not regulate the Xaba surname and culture which makes her wear a goat skin band on her wrist and that Western culture regulations should not be brought into South Africa. She added that Africans have different cultures that cannot be regulated in one bracket. She expressed that she would not allow her culture to be regulated and that she had a goat in her yard to slaughter at any given moment, in observation of her culture. She said that her ancestors taught her that whenever she wanted to communicate with them, she needed to slaughter a chicken, goat, or cow and referring to the mentioned, she asked what the Commission sought to regulate and added that they needed to focus on the mushrooming churches that are selling drugs.

Mr X Msimango (ANC) said he needed to understand how far the Commission had gone with regulating churches. In interactions with the entities of the Department previously, it was raised that entities draft their Annual Performance Plans (APPs) without involving Members of Parliament, and at the end of the financial year, some of these plans are not achieved. He asked why should the Committee support the forwarded plans when the Commission keeps repeating the same mistakes knowing very well that some of the plans were not achievable due to financial constraints. He asked what the interest was in the fact that the CRL stated that they needed money to achieve more objectives when previous plans had not been completed. He said returning money to National Treasury was a problem because South Africans need opportunities and that a single APP that is not performed closes an opportunity.

He said it seemed that some languages were treated as more important than others. For instance, when driving on any highway, all the signs are always written in English and Afrikaans. He asked whether these two languages were more important than the rest. He expressed that it could not be claimed that we are in a new South Africa that regards all people as equal, yet languages are not treated equally. He indicated that it was illogical and not feasible to have all the languages on one Board but it was possible to have boards with other languages and added that a process to redirect the matter should be initiated.  

Mr G Mpumza (ANC) commended the CRL for achieving a clean audit and said that the challenge was upholding the status quo because if it regresses, the blame would be on the Chief Executive Officer (CEO).

Referring to programmes 2 and 3, he said that he believed that the conflict resolution programme was insufficient because the CRL relied on complaints received.

He said that the fact that the entity did not have a footprint in provinces placed it on the backfoot; therefore, its educational awareness would not be impactful. He added that cultural and religious communities did not know that the Commission existed and that there was a need for structures within provinces where there could be offices. This would make the entity accessible to several religious and cultural complaints from communities because they would be aware of its existence. He said he knew this because his cousin's brother is a pastor in the Presbyterian Church, where there was a violent conflict among the church leadership. When the cousin's brother had asked for advice on what to do, he had informed him to either resign or take the matter up with the CRL which he was not aware of.

On conflict resolution, he said that in the emaMpondweni tribe, there are presently two kings because the court declared a new one while the current king was still in power, which then led to a conflict. He also highlighted a similar situation in Limpopo over the Balobedu throne. He asked about the involvement of the CRL in such situations as these are cultural matters and the court, which had been placed at the centre, was messing up. He stated that if the courts from the Roman-Dutch law continued to address cultural and traditional institutions, there would be ongoing conflicts that would never be resolved and that the CRL would only be proactive the day it has the capability of dictating where complaints came from. He stated that the problems in provinces would not be resolved in boardrooms, hence the Commission needs to reposition itself in communities to be able to perform its task of upholding and defending cultural, religious, and linguistic rights.

He highlighted that the issue of flourishing charismatic churches against established churches had not been closed. Even after stakeholder engagements, the matter had not been finalised due to the pandemic. He asked when engagements would be finalised. He stated that religious leaders violently opposed the CRL’s recommendations as they felt that the state was beginning to temper with the freedom of religion. He added that the entity had been investigating alleged abuse at KwaSizabantu church in KwaZulu-Natal, and inquired about the progress of the investigation.

He stated that the entity was busy restoring diminishing indigenous languages like the Khoisan, Mpondo, etc. He asked about the measures to ensure that the mentioned languages were resuscitated and recognised as official languages.

Mr Hadebe interjected by saying that he had forgotten to ask about the review of the by-law, especially on the slaughtering. He asked whether, while conducting reviews, municipalities had experts in all South African cultures concerning crafting by-laws. For example, he asked whether the municipalities only focused on the Xhosa culture in the Eastern Cape and in Limpopo if the focus was on Venda and Xitsonga. He asked whether the by-law standard encompassed all cultures. He stated that any by-law to be passed should be implemented, monitored and enforced, and asked about the mechanisms municipalities have in place to enforce these laws.

He mentioned that it was indicated that Buffalo City affected some of the targets specified. He asked whether it was the responsibility of the entity to enact by-laws, how these targets were affected and how it could be possible for the Commission to review something that did not exist.

Ms E Spies (DA) stated that the Commission lost a vehicle to theft in April of the current year and the insurance partially covered the loss. She asked what type of vehicle it was, its market value, how much the insurance covered, how much excess was paid and if there was any possible negligence by staff.

She highlighted that she would speak on the summary of the results in terms of targets per programme, particularly programme five, that spoke of the Communication, Marketing, IT and Linkages (CMIL) Unit, and a 100 % achievement. She said that although the prior mentioned was presented, when people on the streets are asked about the CRL, they do not have an idea what it is. She added that if the entity wanted to help people, it needed to make people understand its functions and what issues are dealt with, as ordinary people need to know that there is a support channel available to them.

Mr I Groenewald (FF+) said some languages were more developed than others and asked how the same level could be achieved for all so that they could be taught in schools. He mentioned that his wife taught in a predominantly black community and those who attended only spoke English. He added that grade one learners who did not know the language had to first learn it to advance to higher grades. He asked about the actions which could be taken to implement more South African languages and what could be done to develop them so that everyone is at liberty to use their own language.

Mr Mpumza wanted to understand the objectives of passing the Act about witchcraft, what it was to regulate, and whether it aimed to regulate or stop witchcraft. He said that a case had been brought to his office about a young man who stabbed his mother, accusing her of witchcraft. When the woman went to the police station to open a case against her son, she was told that the police do not deal with matters related to witchcraft and that she could only open a case of assault. He sought clarity on the matter.

He stated that South Africa is open to immigrants, especially in the African communities, because the UN High Commission for Refugees and the South African immigration laws do not designate refugees in camps as other countries do. As such, the language barrier may ignite conflicts in townships where these immigrants reside. He added that although English is a universal language, most people are conversant with the language and therefore, there is no common language except Fanakalo. He asked when the Commission would propose a lingua African language as this would enable Africans from different nations to communicate better.

Ms Xaba-Ntshaba explained that there was a difference between a traditional doctor and a sangoma because sangomas are controlled by ancestors. She asked how this would be regulated and the methods used to regulate someone controlled by ancestral spirits. She emphasised that when dealing with such issues, everything should be clear as it now seemed that the country was being colonised once again. She added that practising African culture was not a criminal offence. She explained that sangomas slaughter animals day and night, which meant they did not have time to ask for permission to approach white people’s offices. She said that the CRL should help South Africans defend their cultures.

Ms D Direko (ANC) indicated that while it was a good thing to support culture, it should also not be free for all because some cases implicate the same culture. She narrated that when Members went to the Eastern Cape on an oversight a while back, they found that some of the initiation schools were not following the proper procedures and people hid behind the culture. She added that there needed to be measures in place to regulate some of the activities and although there were traditional leaders, proper practises needed to be done. She said there used to be a situation where sick people were taken to traditional doctors instead of seeking medical treatment, and some would die in those institutions. She added that there was a need for measures to be put in place to best deal with such situations in a way that would not paint a bad picture of the culture. She clarified that as much as people were given the freedom to observe their culture, there was a need for regulations because if these were not in place, cultures would be negatively impacted, as was seen in the Eastern Cape. She added, in reference to the Eastern Cape, that if proper procedures were not followed, children would die and this would reflect negatively on the culture, but if the opposite was done then the culture would be embraced.

The Chairperson reminded Members that as they spoke, they should bear in mind that they were a constitutional entity.

CRL’s Responses

Prof Mosoma indicated that they would start with the pending issue of irregular expenditure which needed to be concluded.  

Mr Mafadza acknowledged that it had taken a long time for the matter to be resolved and mentioned that the CRL requested the Department of Public Service and Administration to assist it voluntarily and a person had been deployed to the Commission. The deployed personnel had conducted an investigation and, in the process, the entity had made a follow-up and there was no reply. He added that the person had recently responded and expressed frustration because his computer had crashed and he was reworking the lost information from his notes to compile the report to be sent to the Commission. He said that the only option they were left with was to restart the process, if the report was not received. He added that the entity was equally concerned, but would soon get somewhere.

Prof Mosoma commented on the thorny issue of unregulated churches saying that the CRL presented a report on the commercialisation of religion and abuse of peoples’ belief systems with a recommendation. The recommendation is straggled between self-regulation and regulation with the idea that there be umbrella bodies that would take account of churches, that apply in terms of the doctrine and code of conduct. The report was currently in Parliament, and the CRL still awaited a response. The benefits that accrued from the report were that there had been a reduction in the volume of activities that led to the abuse of people's religious belief systems. One of the recommendations has been taken up by the Department of Home Affairs as part of dealing with the inflow of foreign churches, which is not the CRL’s responsibility. The CRL's responsibility is to ensure that religion is protected and that freedom of religion is given space. However, that is not a licence to abuse the congregants. The argument to be made is that religion cannot be regulated because it is intangible, and that which cannot be touched cannot be regulated. The only thing that can be regulated is behaviour because it emanates from habit, and that habit can be good or bad and when the habit is bad, it cannot be allowed to continue. He indicated there was no sense in saying churches were regulated, as these are merely buildings. What can be regulated is if faith is practised badly, thereby affecting the lives of others. The Commission did not aim to shut down churches or deport foreign religious leaders but stated that the institutions established for the functioning or flourishing of the spirituality of the people should be allowed to do so. He said he had just received a case where a church feeds congregants raw boerewors and this was under investigation. He highlighted that it was important to note that law enforcement agencies in the country took serious steps against such religious leaders across the Board; some have even been arrested. There was also a list going around amongst congregants, called the wall of shame, which gives the number of religious leaders sentenced to life or for a variety of prison sentences.

On coexistence between South African and foreign nationals, he said it was a very fundamental principle that the Act encourages and mandates the Commission to follow through. He mentioned that when it spoke about tolerance, it tried to see what needs to be done to promote and foster tolerance which is the cardinal feature of coexistence. The CRL was also trying to develop programmes because the Act simply says to protect and promote peacekeeping, friendship, and humanity which are mere statements. The programmes created include that of peacekeeping which expects had been called to be part of to assist its development, as simply talking about peacekeeping was not enough. He stated that when working towards equipping communities to live in peace, the entity needed to question the necessary elements of tolerance.

Referring to the regulation of the African culture, he said that the CRL was looking into the matter because in the country there are organisations that promote animal rights such as the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA). Hence, if one slaughters in a place that is not regulated, they would get arrested. He said that what the entity was indicating is that if there are such contestations, there must be a way to delegate how things should be done so that African people could be allowed to slaughter in their homes wherever they are. To do that, the CRL factors in the by-laws which say slaughtering is allowed but one would need to inform their neighbours. He said that he had not read the regulations but they are intended to ensure peace among the communities. Also, this was not to deny people from observing their culture but the processes needed to be followed for the sake of peace. He explained that the CRL was not in the business of saying African practices should not be done because all individuals practice their culture in different ways, but the question was how this could be done and still allow for peace to be maintained in communities so that people are able to live side by side.

He indicated that Mr Mafadza would respond to the question of the criteria used when selecting a particular area to visit.

Mr Mafadza said the Commission acknowledged the fact that it may not go everywhere but needed to take services where it mattered the most. He added that the entity works at national level and does not have provincial footprints. Therefore, work was done through provincial structures. They also relied on databases from district and local municipalities for cultural, linguistic, and religious communities to lobby for those who would want to engage on a certain theme. The CRL also uses traditional leaders’ councils in provinces which had been useful because some areas were very organised, for example, the Eastern Cape, Limpopo, Nongoma, etc. He added that the Commission used councils to touch base, but the Act requires the CRL to establish cultural, religious, and language community councils. So far, almost 370 community councils have been established, which were used to coordinate local communities into programmes. He said that all organs of state that have similar mandates or share the same sentiment were used to reach out to communities including local and community radio stations. He added that the entity was using the national office but there was still room for improvement. He highlighted that if the CRL moved closer to local communities, its outreach would be more effective.

Prof Mosoma responded to the question of churches that become drug dens at night saying that the issue was a criminal matter that must be dealt with by the South African Police Services (SAPS). He stated that when the CRL discovers criminal activities in a certain church, it alerts the SAPS. He said they were also aware that there were such churches in various provinces and that it was a good thing that these churches were being exposed in the media. He added that communities should help the Commission eliminate churches that disguise themselves as churches during the day and become drug dens at night. He emphasised that the Commission did not support such behaviour but sought to protect the right of religion.

He agreed with Members that western culture should remain in the west and African culture in Africa, but pointed out that culture is dynamic and not static. He explained that there were interfaces of culture as communities lived together side by side. However, this did not mean prioritising one culture at the expense of the other.

He responded to the question of the entity setting its targets and failing to meet them and said that even if the reasons given were not justifiable or understandable, they explained the cause of the highlighted failure. He mentioned that the important thing was that on the operational excellence which had been adopted, there needed to be a review of achievement of quarterly targets to be able to realign and reallocate resources where necessary. For example, the Commission stated that every unit must be able to spend 25% of its budget every quarter so that by the last quarter the entity remains with 25%. If there was misalignment, it could be picked up immediately and corrected. He added that this had been adopted to ensure that the CRL did not have the challenge of not completing its targets, for instance, the Buffalo City case. He stated that the entity had already achieved 100% of its targets, had done its own risk management and had taken note of the advice from the external audit. He highlighted that the entity had done the required work but was told it could not audit it, hence the subtracted 25%.  

Dr Sylvia Mamohapi Pheto, Deputy Chairperson, CRL Rights Commission, said the entity promotes and protects languages and does not develop them as this is the role and mandate of the Pan South African Language Board (PanSALB) under the Department of Sport, Arts, and Culture. PanSALB goes into communities and identifies those that have diminished languages which need to be developed. As soon as the identified languages have been developed, the matter is then referred to the CRL. However, the CRL does not solely depend on the referrals from the PanSALB but in its many activities within communities, if there is a new language that has been developed, the entity then takes up the matter to promote the language. She added that this was not an easy task as some communities wish that their languages could be developed but when the matter is investigated further, it is found that the original speakers of the language no longer exist and the language is no longer spoken. Another hurdle would be that it then becomes hard to find knowledgeable people who would be able to assist in the development of that particular language. This was also a challenge faced by the PanSALB as they also found that people were no longer interested in the original languages as most currently spoken ones had been diluted. She added that the CRL would continue to assist communities who come forth to say they have developed their languages and need assistance in promoting them.

Another issue is how the existing official languages are not given the same status. Dr Pheto stated that the CRL did not condone the fact that languages were not all at the same level, but the way in which languages are being used is historic. Even Members of Parliament themselves do not use the same language. She said that as much as it would be ideal to treat all languages the same, it was an impossible task because things such as finances needed to be considered and this, in fact, was not the mandate of the CRL but that of government. She stated that another factor was that people in the country were segmented, making it difficult for them to promote their languages. It worked better during the homestead system because people in Transkei, for instance, would promote their language and use it in everything they did. Similarly, people in the Setswana-speaking area would do the same, but if communities are segmented, there still needs to be a better strategy to have one language that can bring people together.

Addressing the question of why there was a focus on state-owned institutions, she said that the entity had made progress as far as the private sector is concerned. She mentioned that when visiting the bank, they are given options in terms of the language of choice and the same applies to ATMs. She said that the main focus of the project was to check whether the nation was ready to use official languages and this was not to prioritise the state and leave out the private sector. She added that the private sector had made an effort to promote the use of different languages in their own little space.

Prof Mosoma highlighted that the reason why the CRL focused on the organs of the state was that they already have language units and this made it possible to check for their functionality and whether they were dormant or working. He added that this would serve the purpose of ensuring that multi-language communication is derived from the organs of the state to reach communities.

On sustaining a clean audit obtained, he said the CRL believed it could and needed to use the same strategies to ensure continued results.  

Referring to the issue of conflict resolution, he echoed what was said by the Members that the issue was intensified or made difficult by the simple fact that the entity did not have a footprint in communities. He mentioned that these were issues that they needed to look into, and most importantly, cultural matters that ended up in court and not with the CRL. He highlighted that there were two challenges concerning this. When they met up with the equality court, religious matters were referred to the CRL and the entity had been able to deal with two fighting religious institutions and adjudicate peace-making. The entity was also part of what was happening in Thohoyandou, Venda, to try and assist but because the matter was now in court, they could not do otherwise. He explained that when traditional matters are referred to the CRL directly by those involved, it is willing to assist. He added that the entity dealt with traditional leaders and offered its services without taking the court route.

He indicated that the issue of KwaSizabantu took some time but the investigation had just been concluded. The entity was currently in the process of report writing and the report would be available in the next few months, with recommendations.

Mr Mafadza responded to the question of the restoration of the diminishing heritage and said that it formed part of the work done by the CRL through research. He mentioned that some of the findings, such as those on indigenous languages which are not necessarily recognised, such as isiHlubi and isiMpondo, allow them to try and resuscitate these languages.

He said they had intervened in Nquthu, KwaZulu-Natal, where they had received complaints about a diminishing language because those who spoke it were now residing in the province where the Zulu language dominates. They also added that they were not allowed to use their language due to this fact. He mentioned that the CRL had intervened because the complainants were having challenges in schools and other areas and relevant stakeholders had to be engaged to assist so that they could be accommodated in one way or another. The entity had made recommendations to the provincial government to assist and this was one way of trying to deal with such issues. He added that the report on languages was to be produced in February of the following year, and it will attempt to address some of the concerns that the Committee raised including the diminished languages and those that are official.

He said that the CRL was moving in a direction where they wanted to push for provincial recognition of languages and not on a national level. If a language was dominant in a particular province, then the entity would inquire with the legislator to help elevate the language to an official provincial language. He gave an example that in the Eastern Cape, there are two languages, namely; isiXhosa and isiMpondo, and the latter was marginalised. He mentioned that the Commission was pleased with the fact that the Department of Basic Education in the province had started to elevate both languages, which meant that the languages would be used in schools. He added that children fail because of the language barrier and not because they do not know what they are being taught. He indicated that it was upon the entity to engage on such matters. The upcoming report was a critical element that would also allow the Committee to look over and engage to see how best to deal with issues. He added that in the report, it is specified that departments should be the first to use official languages in service delivery points. Municipalities and people should be given the liberty to choose the language they prefer just as it is at the banks. He said he has always made a serious argument concerning Afrikaans and that how the language had been developed should be used as a template to develop the rest so that they are on par with both English and Afrikaans. He highlighted that a lot of resources had been put in place to develop the language and the same model needed to be adopted for diminished languages and those not necessarily being used at an expected level.

He added that the question was mandatory and needed to be explored deeper going forward because it is within the Commission’s mandate to protect and promote diminished languages and diminishing heritage.

Prof Mosoma responded to the question on the availability of experts in municipalities and said that the question had been raised before. He then stated that their responsibility was to develop a database of experts in cultural, religious, and linguistic areas. Once these had been identified, the Commission could be able to inform municipalities in terms of where to seek advice on such matters. He added that once these individuals were available to assist, this would also help the entity in moving forward.

Addressing the enforcement issue, he said that it was one thing to have regulations but if they could not be enforced, it would be as though they did not exist and enforcing only would not be enough but there needs to be a deterrent. He highlighted that these were elements of ensuring peaceful and coherent communities that respect each other. He added that the entity would also communicate with municipalities to determine which forms of enforcement needed to be introduced to assist in this regard.

Mr Cornelius Smuts, Chief Financial Officer, CRL Rights Commission, responded to the question of the stolen vehicle and said that the book value in February was R522 000 with an insurance excess audit of R57 000 and R515 000 was cash paid into the bank account, leaving the CRL with a loss of R7000. He explained that the vehicle was not being used by any of the staff members and as such, no one could be charged with negligence as it was parked in its normal place in the underground parking. He said that the thieves came in and also took another tenant’s vehicle that was also in the underground parking.  

Mr Mafadza added that the vehicle was stolen when the members were working on the premises around 10 am and were alerted by Tracker who asked if they were driving in Soweto. When they confirmed that it was not them, investigations were made and the vehicle was eventually recovered within two hours but everything inside was already stripped. Looking at how the vehicles were stolen, the initial assumption was that it was an inside job but after further investigations, it was discovered that the criminals used fake ID documents to access the building.

Prof Mosoma responded to the statement that the entity was not widely known and said they were trying everything in the book to ensure that they created awareness. He mentioned that there was a collaboration with the South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC) in terms of regional and community radios to be able to use them as focal points in trying to make sure that the CRL is popularised and a memorandum of understanding has been concluded. He stated that the main issue was about programmes and not so much about the presence of the CRL because communities support the entity whenever presentations are made around the country. He added that the most important thing was the type of programmes they introduced so that individuals, wherever they are, could watch matters of culture, religion, and language. He expressed that it was not so much about the name, but that the name must be associated with what it seeks to achieve to help communities to become what they are supposed to be.

He highlighted that the Suppression of Witchcraft Act was still under review and the Law Review Commission was busy, with assistance from the CRL. He explained that the issue was around the difference between the non-natural and the supernatural, and a problem that also came to being was the use of labels. He explained that the word “witch” is a historical term that was also referred to as sorcery in historical books like McBeth and is nothing to make noise over as it talks about spirits and not a bad act. However, when it is used negatively, associated with a lack of understanding of the language itself, the word becomes negative. Thus, the CRL was trying to distinguish that what was wrong was the claim of the ability to use non-natural or supernatural powers to harm someone. He added that the problem was the psychological effect and many other things the entity was dealing with. They also hoped that in their next visit to Parliament, Members would be able to make suggestions on how to look at the matter.

He said the issue of sangomas was a matter that the CRL had no authority over as it is a spiritual matter, but if it agreed that religion is allowed, then the practice should also be allowed. He added that it was a matter of spirituality that cannot be controlled, so the Constitution allows the freedom to exercise one’s spirituality.

He said that the challenge around the issue of initiation was that culture was being promoted but there needed to be a distinction between harmful and unharmful cultural practices because if that was not done, the entity would be at fault by allowing something that undermined the very noble practice of culture. He added that the practice has been noble for centuries but the encroachment of illegal activities taking place overshadows it. He stated that he had to defend the practice at the United Nations Commission that came to South Africa which called it a harmful practice. Although the practice is not harmful, if more illegal activities persist, the tradition will look like a harmful process. He mentioned that the support given to traditional leaders was to support the Customary Initiation Act so that it could be applied and implemented to prevent the unintended consequences of young people dying in initiation schools.

Follow up questions

Ms Xaba-Ntshaba said the Commission was relying on the police to deal with fake churches yet there is lawlessness in the country because the police take bribes from drug dealers. She added that all tent churches are found in cities, not in rural areas where indigenous churches are dominant. She asked why the entity did not work with the office of the Department of Community Safety, as there are brigades that could assist in getting a true reflection of criminal activities within communities. She said she was once deployed as a Member of Parliament in Midrand and whenever she was conducting certain programmes, she would call the brigades because they would be ears on the ground. She mentioned that in Midrand, opposite McDonald’s, drugs were being sold to the extent that the business was being run in broad daylight. When her nephew came to visit her in Midrand, and while he was waiting for her to fetch him, he was approached by drug dealers who asked to supply him with his drug of choice. She then approached the police, who claimed to know of the allegations as they had been reported countless times but whenever they would raid the place, they would not find anything and therefore could not make any arrests. She expressed that she did not believe that they could not find anything incriminating but that there was an element of bribing, as is the norm in the country.

Mr Groenewald spoke on the issue of promoting languages and suggested that if a language is to be promoted, its history should also be prioritised so that people become proud of it and this will also help in its development. He mentioned that he is proudly Afrikaans and knows the history of the Afrikaans language, which has included other languages in its vocabulary. For example, kudu is a Khoisan word and not of Afrikaans origin. He added that when the history of a language is known, it brings about a culture of respect for languages.

Mr Msimango said the entity was overall not performing badly, compared to other government entities, and it was important to build on what had already been established. He then encouraged the Commission to keep up the good work it is doing to improve. However, he disagreed with the view that developing a language needed resources. He said that the CRL is an authority with a role to play according to the prescript of its mandate and it cannot be that they give such excuses; otherwise, they can just close shop and go home. He said he understood that the role of the Commission was to promote and not develop languages.

He highlighted that Members represent the interests of the people of different constituencies and that the reality was that the issue of languages, not being treated equally, was not something that started with the current democratic government. He explained that the problem began with the arrival of the Europeans in 1652, who claimed to have discovered South Africa when there were already people inhabiting it. He added that it was interesting that the European settlers sat down and crafted strategies to dominate the natives they discovered because their discovery included the people. He indicated that in as much as this was not the Commission’s competence, no language just develops but effort was put into developing dominant languages. Hence, government needs to do the same to lift all the diminishing languages. He said that Members have a responsibility and use the powers given to them by voters to rectify such matters as people lose interest in voting for the current government because it does not do as promised.

Mr Groenewald added that there were a lot of good educational institutions that could assist in developing languages and a dialogue should be started with them to see how it goes.

The Chairperson said the agreement was that languages are not currently developed and no language was void of history. He said there should be a strategy to rectify the situation but the first culprits were the Members because they were not speaking their own languages and nothing was inhibiting them from doing such. He said that the aim of speaking a common language, which is English, was to be understood by those who sat around tables in meetings but the millions of people to whom they should be speaking to had been forgotten. He indicated that the challenge was in finding strategies to develop languages, and ways to approach the issue, especially as public representatives and government. He said there was a lot to be learned from countries such as China, whose President speaks his language and someone else interprets it. He added that this was a far bigger issue than the capacity of the Commission and that everyone in leadership needed to be involved.

Prof Mosoma thanked the Committee for physically receiving the CRL’s briefing, which he indicated, heightened and enhanced the conversation. He said that their comments were not criticisms but constructive proposals that enable the entity to do its work in the nation's best interest. He added that the inputs given sharpened their understanding of the Commission’s mandate which deepened their analysis and helped developing strategies.  

The Chairperson thanked and encouraged the entity to maintain its impressive clean audit. He said the Portfolio Committee heard the message on the historical irregular expenditure but they should be encouraged to deal with the issue.  

He said that after the Committee’s visit to the Eastern Cape, they had instructed the National Initiation Oversight Committee to prepare for the upcoming initiation season, and would be interested in seeing what would happen. As such, they were interested in the Indaba scheduled for the current month. He added that the issue around initiation had led the media to question why Members allow children to die, and it needed to be addressed quickly.

Referring to the development of languages, he indicated that he was not sure in terms of who would facilitate the matter to a point where South Africans refuse to be divided by language.

Municipal Demarcation Board Annual Report 2021/22

Mr Thabo Manyoni, Chairperson, Municipal Demarcation Board (MDB), gave an overview of the Board's performance indicating that he was proud to announce that the entity received a clean audit for four consecutive years. He said that this puts enormous pressure on the Board to maintain the status quo, not only on the report but also on other areas of performance. He stated that the Board was also trying to intensify its awareness programme to ensure that it reaches as many communities as possible to explain the decisions that affect ordinary South Africans. He indicated that the past performance of the Board revealed that there is a social conflict and displeasure that used to exist mainly on matters that concern the Demarcation Board, with Vuwani being the classic example. In the past election performance, that dissatisfaction had been minimised.

He emphasised that the Board was of the belief that interactions with communities are important as it continues to bear fruits. It is also part of the Board's objectives to ensure that it intensifies on such and concentrates on consulting not only the communities but other stakeholders as well, particularly the traditional leadership in provinces like KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape. These are the areas the Board would like to focus on as it implements its objective as part of the annual performance plan. A report on norms and standards for all municipal powers and functions had also been completed and capacity assessments were being conducted and reported on. However, the setback was the entity’s dependence on a third party, as certain municipalities responded late or not at all. In addition, in the areas where a 100% outcome had not been achieved, it was mainly due to the dependence on third parties but internally, the internal control and oversight environment had been performed well.

Mr Aluwani Ramagadza, Acting Chief Executive Officer: MDB gave the presentation.

Highlights – 2021/22 Annual Report

  • Maintained its clean audit status
  • Achieved 95% of its APP targets
  • Developed a multi-criteria decision support tool for municipal boundary redetermination
  • Analysed 213 municipalities in terms of administrative and service areas concerning municipal boundaries
  • Completed Reports on minimum norms and standards for all municipal powers and functions
  • Assisted 142 municipalities in updating their capacity assessment data via an online questionnaire
  • Extended its knowledge hub by integrating two spatial data products
  • Continued its public and stakeholder awareness and education activities on demarcation processes.

Audit Outcomes

  • The MDB maintained its clean audit opinion on its Annual Financial Statements and performance information for the year ended 31 March 2022.

Financial Information

  • The MDB experienced an under-expenditure in the year under review.
  • Revenue received for the year was R71 425 million and expenditure of R59 817 million resulting in a surplus of R11 608 million.

Impact on budget allocation

This surplus is mainly due to:

  • Investigations on municipal boundary redetermination proposals that have been carried over to the next financial year (2022/2023).
  • Publication of notices in gazettes for those municipal boundary redetermination proposals.
  • Stakeholder awareness and education projects

Key Challenges

  • Inadequate financial and human resources constraining the MDB from optimally fulfilling its mandate
  • Lack of regional representation continues to constrain the MDB’s work.
  • High dependence on municipalities and/or departments to facilitate communication with communities.
  • MDB continues to receive requests for major municipal boundary redeterminations citing reasons related to the poor or lack of service delivery.

Proposed Interventions

  • Work on the review of the MDB’s founding legislation, currently referred to as the “Independent Demarcation Authority Bill” should be expedited.
  • MDB continue to intensify its public and stakeholder education and awareness programs.
  • Through collaboration and partnerships, MDB will coordinate spatial data and information for better access by all state and public development partners.
  • Class 3 and 4 municipal boundary changes should only be limited to small boundary alignments, i.e. class 1 to allow more time for municipal consolidation.
  • DDM should be strengthened to foster Inter-municipal collaborations on district-wide development projects to encourage service delivery and economic growth.

[See attachment for a complete MDB presentation]

 

Discussion

Mr Groenewald requested two reports from the MDB.

Ms Mkhaliphi asked if anyone was ever held liable for the R500 000 irregular expenditure incurred due to the employment of a service provider whose tax matters were not in order with the South African Revenue Services (SARS). She inquired about the reasons why the amount was not disclosed on the 2021/22 financial year report.

She highlighted that the MDB’s legal fees during the period under the review had more than tripled from R562 000 in the 2020/21 financial year to R1.8 million in the 2021/22 financial year. She asked the reasons behind such a significant rise. She added that during the same period, the entity’s financials and services delivery performance also regressed, achievement of targets moved from 100% in the previous financial year to 95%, and spending on budget regressed from 100% to 84.7%. She asked how the Board accounts for the backward movement.

She indicated that page nine of the presentation specifies that the MDB developed a multi-criteria decision support tool for municipal boundary redetermination and asked for an elaboration on the statement and how this helped people in Mangaung, Ward 17, for example.

She said that it was also stated that analysis had been done on 213 municipalities in terms of administrative and service areas concerning municipal boundaries, and asked why the specific number of municipalities had been selected. She added that reports on minimum norms and standards for all municipal powers and functions had been completed and asked what these were.

She said that it had been stated that 142 municipalities were assisted in updating their capacity assessment data via an online questionnaire, and highlighted that the matter had been raised before because of the footprint of the Board, especially at a ward level where it matters the most as people still did not know of its existence. The Board had indicated that due to resource constraints, it relied on municipalities. She asked if this was the same when it came to the online questionnaire, and explained that the question stemmed from the fact that the Board had handed over its functions to municipalities due to limited resources. She indicated that the matter had been discussed because the entity could not rely on municipalities whenever it pleased.

Ms Mkhaliphi pointed out that the presentation also indicates that the Board extended its knowledge hub by integrating two spatial data products and continued its public and stakeholder awareness and education activities on demarcation processes. She asked why they were satisfied with this, as she was not because it did not make sense. She explained that areas such as Ward 52 in Brooks Farm were divided into four but the community believed it belonged to one ward. She asked how the developed stakeholder awareness had been done to serve as a tool to educate people. This is the core business of the MDB to educate people to prevent comebacks after the demarcations. She added that everyone needed to be aware of such, especially considering how communities revolt during election time for different reasons. She said that the people may be calm for the time being, but this may change towards the 2024 anticipated elections.

She asked that the development of campaign tools be elaborated on and be linked with the Board’s dependence on municipalities.

She reminded the Committee of the point raised in a previous meeting, where she alleged that the Board grouped several old people and took a photo to use as evidence of work done. She said this was a laughing matter because of the way it had been communicated and asked that the entity elaborates on how it performs the work claimed to be done.

She highlighted that the chairperson of the Board also commented that most of the concerns of the Committee would be addressed in the Bill/Act but, to date, the Bill was still in the process of development. She asked what the plan was in addressing these concerns and for an update on the implementation of the Bill.

She asked that the different classes mentioned in the presentation be explained. She explained that Members did not understand the language being used and that the Board should not simply assume that it would be enough by merely pointing out issues without elaborating. She added that the reports needed to be simplified. 

Ms Spies said she would not be doing her job if she did not raise issues that may be uncomfortable because she was representing those who voted for her. She highlighted the matter which concerns the breach of Section 12 of the Local Government Municipal Demarcation Act, whose statutory code of conduct for the MDB contains the following prohibition in Section 12(1e), it states “A member of the board will not act in any way that compromises the credibility, impartiality, independence or integrity of the board.”  She said that it was public knowledge that the chairperson of the Board actively campaigned to become the chairperson of the African National Congress (ANC) in the Free State while continuing to serve what is meant to be a politically impartial position in the MDB. She said that the Board was charged with determining the boundaries of municipalities and municipal wards and serves a very important constitutional function that requires impartiality. She added that the recent MDB decisions, including Sebokeng and Midvaal, were challenged based on political interference and asked the chairperson to speak on the matter.

Ms Direko said the key challenges raised by the MDB, such as the lack of regional representation, continued to constrain the work done and the issue had been raised before. She said that the Committee was aware of the resource limitations but the last time this issue had been discussed together with the Committee, there was a proposal that all board members would be deployed to different provinces and work with municipalities. She asked if this had been implemented and what the challenges were.

In the previous meeting, Members also raised the issue of the vacant CEO position which had not yet been filled. She asked how fair the Board was in filling the position and how far it had gone in resolving the issues with the previous CEO.

Mr Mpumza said he was bothered by the classes mentioned in the presentation which he understood to mean that Class 1 was an insignificant redetermination of an outer boundary. In the case of the major boundaries, which refer to Class 4 to Class 5, with indications of collapsing an existing municipality, he asked what would be the predominant determent in arriving at a conclusion and whether the Board will use proposals from the people or its demarcation criteria. He said that if the Board’s criteria are an overriding criterion, it will not consider the proposals submitted by the people.

He mentioned that one of the Board’s criteria is that communities must-have services. He said that in some of the MDB demarcations some communities were demarcated outside their towns, and therefore people needed to travel 2 km to 400 km outside to seek services. For example, people from Ntabankulu need to travel from the Mzimvubu river to Mount Frere, which is 200 km away, and from Mount Frere to Qumbu, an additional 40 km just to seek services. Referring to what was highlighted, he asked if such proposals would be the dominant factor in determining the very complex major redetermination.

Regarding conducted research, Ms Mkhaliphi asked whether it was done in-house or the entity relied on students to carry out studies on demarcation and use their findings for projects. He added that as much as it is good to use research, it needed to be balanced with practical work on the ground. He said that it was concerning how the entity reaches out to poor communities and asked that they thoroughly respond to forwarded questions. He told the board members that they could sleep peacefully knowing that people on the ground clearly understood their work. He also asked the chairperson of the Board to use the information he gave him in his response and indicate how they can intervene when members of the public contact them directly with issues of divisions in communities, especially if their work in a particular area is done.

MDB Responses

Mr Manyoni said the Board intends to ensure that the Members are satisfied when they receive a briefing and when they raise issues. He responded to Mr Groenewald’s request for the two reports saying they would be made available as soon as they were ready.

Ms Mbali Myeni, Deputy Chairperson, MDB, responded to the CEO question saying that the entity was almost completing the process of appointing a new CEO and interviews would be held between December and January. She added that the vacancy would be filled in the coming year.

On the significant rise in legal fees, she said the Board received several legal matters that required legal processes to deal with and that they never anticipated the many legal matters received. She added that these had all been properly processed and resolved by using investigators sourced through external service providers.

She said stakeholder engagements in the awareness programmes have improved and reports can attest to that, particularly on social media platforms including Facebook and Twitter. There have also been interactions with the local communities using the local radio and newspapers. The MDB has also ensured that information shared with communities was shared in their local languages because it has been a challenge in past years to get messages across to all the communities. They were also improving stakeholder engagements and enhancing communication programmes to be able to reach out to communities.

Mr Ramagadza said the Board was not happy with its education and awareness efforts because it would want a situation where there is an understanding of its processes on the ground. As such, he emphasised that this was an area which had been identified when strategies that needed intensification were initiated. He highlighted that the matter was a difficult one and it also touched on the question raised by Ms Mkhaliphi on how the MDB deals with issues brought to the Board by the members of the public, especially after it had done the wards. He indicated that the chairperson regularly visits most communities to explain the Board’s processes and the process that could be followed if it were to have corrections on matters, especially with ward delimitation. He said that this was an area where issues are always identified, where wards split communities before starting with the next delimitation process and there is a need for voting districts to be demarcated. He added that both the chairperson and staff had visited such communities regularly to engage with them, and that was why the chairperson had earlier indicated that as much as the Board did not eradicate the disgruntlement everywhere, compared to the previous elections, there has been an improvement in the dissatisfaction on the ground. However, the MDB was not yet where it would like to be, hence, it was intensifying the process.

On the question of the 213 municipalities, he said that the number was the total number of the metros and local municipalities combined. 

He responded to the question on the reports that would be produced on norms and standards for capacity assessments, saying the Board had realised that it was supposed to make a determination to assist MECs when they adjust powers and functions between the districts and the locals. The DMB had to look at all the powers and functions in the country, for example, firefighting. The entity needed to look at whether there were norms and standards on firefighting in the country which tell municipalities that when they are performing firefighting, they need to have, for example, 25 firefighters, ten fire engines, or R30 million annually. He said that this was where the MDB offered input, to be able to tell whether a municipality had a fire firefighting function but, for instance, does not have firefighters and therefore does not meet the standard. The Board has been generating reports that inform whether municipalities in the country had a minimum standard to meet the capacity to serve a certain function. The intention going forward, where there are norms and standards, is to inquire whether municipalities have fire engines or qualified firefighters which would enable the entity to reference against a particular minimum norm. Where there are no norms and standards, the Board would be able to communicate with a relevant national and provincial department to say that there is a need to define the minimum standards so that the municipalities can capacitate themselves accordingly.

On regionalisation, he agreed that the matter had been spoken about on several occasions and indicated that the current board members had been deployed to various provinces, including the staff in the core division, who have been structured to align particular regions and provinces. Hence, if there was an issue in a particular province, the Board only called those people to handle it as it sought to build the body of knowledge so that communities could get better assistance without having to deal with new people all the time.

Answering the question on challenges, he said the Board was under the national department, and during a time where there is no intense job, for example, ward delimitation, they are able to visit other communities or deal with a query but when they are intensely involved, it becomes a challenge.

He said he agrees with Mr Mpumza’s point because it aligns with the intensifying public participation and engagement issues.

Referring to the question on criteria, he said the Board did not only look at the technical reports but also intended to couple public engagements with all the technical facts harvested. Thereafter, public meetings would be used to fit in issues, raised by the people, to the background knowledge collected which would then influence the decisions going forward. Besides public meetings, the Board came up with a process called Section 29 and 30 formal investigations. This prevented people who were found to not be part of communities or have no knowledge of the challenges faced by the communities they claimed to represent, from just making submissions that their communities should be moved around. It was noted that when public meetings would be held, community members who were claimed to be represented would indicate that such requests had never been made, hence it was important to put in place such processes which would inhibit people from doing whatever they wanted with community-related matters. Instead, if such individuals came forward, they would be asked to present their cases in front of everyone in the community meetings, where everyone would get to hear facts which represented or misrepresented their communities. After the Board has decided on the matter, the draft reports are published so that members of the community can make comments in line with Section 26 and collaborate with available information to see if there is validity. Before the final decision is made in line with Section 21(5), reports are published to allow for objections in case someone is unaware of the process. Therefore, people are allowed to make objections and motivations and there have been many instances where the Board decided not to continue an objective based on an objection. The objectives are analysed on the relevant criteria, input from public meetings, input from research and input from the submissions received. This helps improve the processes and avoid making decisions that are not justifiable in a way. He indicated that research was done internally, except for the ones on the criteria for the demarcations which are outsourced because of the intensity of the process and the capacity required. However, as explained, the outcome of the research results is not the final decision of the Board; it just contributes.

Ms Tintswalo Baadjie, Chief Financial Officer, MDB, said there were a few issues during the year under review that required legal services. One of the bidders of the building that the Board uses took the Commission to the high court claiming the process was unfair. However, they decided not to proceed with the case which led to the Board incurring costs. Another case was the whistle-blower report that was investigated and required legal practitioners. There was also a CCMA case where the former CEO took the Board to the CCMA and the long outstanding issue of the former Executive Manager who took the entity to the labour court. She clarified that these were the areas that the Board dealt with in the previous year which resulted in the high legal fees for the year under review.

On the irregular expenditure, she said it did not come from non-compliance from the year under review, but from the 2018 non-compliance. This was because the same service provider was being used. It also related to the case of the former executive manager and these were the costs of the labour court. She added that as long as the same service provider was being used, irregular expenditure would always be indicated and this did not relate to new non-compliance. She said that the guideline for completing the annual financial statement was that details indicated the first time the non-compliance occurred and in the following years, there needed to be disclosure of the amount related to that. The official who caused the irregular expenditure had been disciplined, adding to the legal fees because the labour disciplinary process had already started. However, the contract for the official responsible ended before the process could be finalised and the case had been reported to the police and handed over with all the necessary information.

Mr Daniel Sebake, Senior Manager: Operations Technology, explained that Class 1 (minor and technical alignment) of the municipal boundary redeterminations affects a small number of the population and may not negatively affect the functioning of the municipalities. The aim was to align the municipal boundary to either a farm boundary, a road or a river to be identifiable. The Board needed to communicate with the farmer and the municipality to discuss the rates and taxes.

Class 2 (consolidations and annexations, amalgamations and categorisation into metropolitan municipalities, respectively) affects medium to a large populations and may negatively affect the functioning of the municipalities. In this case, there may be people in a ward moving from one municipality to the other, or village and normally, such proposals would come because a particular area would be close to a certain town in another municipality meaning services would be better accessible. In such a case, a medium size population would be affected by this kind of redetermination.

The third one referred to the amalgamations where Midvaal and Lesedi had to be combined to form one entity. There was also a case of Potchefstroom and Tlokwe where they had to be combined to form a municipality. He indicated that these were major cases with a bigger effect because systems had to be combined which would result in job loss.

Class 4 refers to the categorisation of the municipalities, where a local municipality or district is categorised into a Category A municipality or a metropolitan municipality. He said that most of the time, people think that if they move from a local municipality to a metropolitan municipality the social grants increases but on the contrary, they are reduced.

He said the Integrated Spatial Knowledge Hub was an online site that any member of the public could access and that a link could be sent to Members. He added that the site had all the maps of municipalities that the Board collected and applications which could be easily accessed by the public on mobile phones, regardless of where they are in the country.

On the decision support tool, he said the MDB legislation has twelve factors of demarcation which are very broad and not easily measurable. The 12 factors were used to develop some measurable indicators to make a demarcation process which not only depended on members of the Board, and would also keep a consistent method even after the current Board had gone. He said this was the basis for creating a decision support system as it was more for the people inside and not for outsiders. He added that information was collected through research and when cases are analysed, the decision support tool could be used to come to an end decision.

Mr Manyoni commented on the ward delimitations saying it was not the Board’s initiative to just split the wards but this depended on factors such as the formula used to determine the number of councillors which then impacts the number of wards available. He added that political parties would want more councillors, but unfortunately, the Board had to deal with the wards to accommodate that type of set-up. This then leads to splits and a ward would be created which also leads to an amalgamation of the adjacent ward which then gives rise to challenges that have been raised, particularly, the issues faced in Ward 2. When the Board realises that the community has been split, particularly, the traditional area community, it tries to have the chief or the king and their communities in one ward. The challenge arises when there is a formula that impacts that. He said that this was a difficult set up, but the Board tries to ensure that communities are kept in one area whenever possible. Some of the dissatisfactions arise because people are used to voting at a particular place, and dissatisfaction arises if this changes. He stated that, in short, the Board did not just decide to split wards but this was due to determinant factors, and unfortunately, the processes have a time frame and when closed, there is not much that the Board can do.  

He stated that there were very difficult areas that the Board was dealing with including outsourcing some of its functions to municipalities. The Acts stipulates that the Office of the Speaker is expected to play a role when there are community engagements in the council or in a municipality. That is why the Board goes through the office of the speaker to get assistance to get communities under one roof. In most cases, the Board has gone to the extent of consulting with communities when the Act is silent. The entity took this initiative because it understood that it would be better for communities to be involved all the time because there would be a term when enough consultations would have been done.

He said that the Board knew the dynamics and politics of the local government and at times, the office is not well accepted in a particular portion of the ward resulting in meetings not taking place in that section. Unfortunately, because the MDB lacks a regional presence, they would find out later when they receive complaints. These are just some of the challenges the Board faces, but it does not mean it will not pursue matters until it gets them right. He added that in the current democracy, when communities want a particular way, they cannot be ignored because what they want does not align with the objectives of the Board as per redetermination and as outlined in the Act. At the same time, the Board must balance that if it is taken to court, it must be seen to have acted in the manner that the Act stipulates. As such, in most cases, the Board also engages with communities that are going to be affected and indicates to them the criteria and what to expect. This helps the communities to explain themselves better and motivate better. As such, the Board has decided, through its investigation, to call applicants and members, even those opposing, to ensure that at the end of the process, there has been an intensive consultation on those matters.

He said most of the Members know that he has a particular history, which has led him to act in such a manner that South Africans would say he was at least independent in performing his duties. Since the MDB was established, he has acted in a manner that at least could be seen as impartial and, to date, has not been found wanting when it comes to impartiality, as the chairperson of the Board, because it may affect his future if he acted otherwise. He said members had accepted his role but there is a concern from some members that even if he has acted impartial to date, maybe when he runs for a position in a political party, he will start acting impartial. Mr Manyoni said this was a perception that could not predetermine his behaviour, as long he is aware that at the end of the day, it will be about his image, he would act in a manner that will not make him be found wanting. Of course, if things go according to his wish, he would have to resign from the Board to pursue a political career. He said he had consulted the Minister about his intentions and indicated that if things go well, he would have to relinquish his duties at the right time.

He mentioned that it was a good thing that the matter was raised in the Committee meeting and if ever it happens that he is found wanting in his position, the Committee would have to deal with him accordingly. For the current moment, he added, he has acted impartially and ensured that the institution he is leading performs very well.

 

Follow up questions

Ms Mkhaliphi asked for clarity on the financial implications concerning whistle-blowers. She asked what the issues were that needed a whistle-blower in the institution and added that she needed an example because she struggled to make sense of what was being spoken of.

She thanked Mr Ramagadza for his honest opinion because in as much as the entity was doing work, if it could not translate that to impact people on the ground, then whatever studies and other mechanisms introduced would be pointless.

She said she hoped that the chairperson would have given clarity when he explained his role as a political activist because when Members engage with him, they learn as well. She added that this helped them understand his work ethic so that they could perform their role better.

She suggested the Committee engage more with the Board because although the chairperson had responded to questions, he did not explain Ward 52 matters. Instead, he mentioned that other factors inform the Board to divide a ward or the municipality and asked what these factors were, what guides the Board to decide that a certain ward needs to be divided and who informed interventions.

She said that Ward 52, for example, was formerly an Indian community but the new political era wanted to ensure that it was not dominated by race, therefore, a mixed-race ward was demarcated as Ward 52. Five years later, it got divided into three which are Ward 51, Ward 52, and Ward 57. Fast forward to date, a complaint is coming to the MDB because one section is taken to Ward 57 and the issue of resources emerged. With the pending water crisis, when supplied to residents, the councillor refused to supply Ward 52 indicating that the water belonged to Ward 57. She added that the presentation mentioned that the chairperson visited various communities except for the one in question, and she asked for an explanation in this regard.

The Chairperson said that, generally, communities were divided, but confirmed that the chairperson of the Board visited one of the wards in his constituency.

Ms Myeni admitted that she did not give details on the whistle-blower matter and explained that it was an ongoing investigation of a sexual harassment claim.

Mr Manyoni said the Board would explain at a later stage, regarding what was happening in Ward 52, as they did not have the report with them. He explained that when a ward is created, there needs to be a specified number of voters so that it qualifies to be a ward. In a voting district, if there are, for example, three voting stations, the ward with fewer voters is merged with an existing one. However, this creates problems around service delivery, leading to complaints and driving individuals back to their previous wards. He indicated that he was not giving the Committee a clear picture of what was happening, but merely giving a demonstration. However, as the Board prepares for upcoming elections, it would look into how the situation could be rectified without affecting the number of potential voters.

Mr Ramagadza responded to the issue of the Bill, saying the reason why he mentioned that it would go a long way to assist the Board on public participation was that there was now a chapter dedicated to public participation and consultation-related issues. The other reason is that the process of public participation and consultation has become clearer for the public and is infused within the legal process itself. He said that the Board decided to have a chapter that specifies what participation in ward delimitation was, for example, a public hearing needs to be published in a newspaper two weeks prior, to inform communities about the date, time, venue, and purpose for the submission. It also specifies how the Board should consider the submissions and inputs from the community members and infuse them into the process.

Addressing the issue of ward delimitation, he said that the Act currently states that the Board can deviate from the norm, meaning that it can only allow a certain number of wards. For example, if the norm for eThekwini, which means the average number of registered voters allowed, is 1 000 it means the Board can only deviate 15% above that. It can only delimit a ward within 15% of the number of registered voters even going below, but it cannot delimit a ward with fewer registered voters. The MDB found that this has, on many occasions, ended up splitting communities because when it tries to fit them under one ward, they have too many registered voters to allow the Board to fit within that parameter. As such, it ends up doing what the chairperson spoke about which is to split wards. The MDB has proposed that instead of the 15% it should be up to 30% based on certain conditions to avoid wards being too big or too small, and this was to try and address the dissatisfaction due to splitting communities. The Bill also proposes an appeals authority so that if there is still dissatisfaction when all is done, members of the community can still appeal.

Ms Myeni thanked the Portfolio Committee for making time for the discussion despite the Members’ busy schedules. She asked the Committee to take into consideration the issues raised by the Board that are impacting its work and added that they were committed to doing the work expected.

The Chairperson thanked the MDB for the consecutive clean audit outcomes in the last four years, which helped everyone to understand that good work is being done. He said that the Committee noted areas that demanded support from all stakeholders and thanked the chairperson of the Board for transparency and satisfactory response regarding his campaign for a position in the ANC.

 

Meeting adjourned

 

Audio

No related

Download as PDF

You can download this page as a PDF using your browser's print functionality. Click on the "Print" button below and select the "PDF" option under destinations/printers.

See detailed instructions for your browser here.

Share this page: