Western Cape Department of Social Development 2017/18 Annual Report

Meeting report

The Chairperson welcomed said this meeting is strictly for the interrogation of the Annual Report. They will go page by page through the Department of Social Development’s Annual Report. She allowed the MEC for Social Development in the Western Cape, Mr Albert Fritz, to say a few opening words.

Mr Fritz said it is always good to come in front of the Committee and interact, analyse and dissect their Annual Report and to look at a number of issues which came up under the year of review, and specifically regarding certain figures and concepts that come out of audit reports and other reports. It is a year they came under heavy stress financially. It is a year they wanted to roll out their programmes as far as possible so that service delivery can reach the people on the ground.  It is a year where they did a lot of reviews and going forward they want to continue doing those reviews of their partner organisations in terms of their quality of services to the people. It is also a time where they want to continue expanding their other services, specifically their services assisting young people and getting youth development onto the track. They always find these interactions with the Committee very constructive so that they can make the difference and the changes that they need to.

The Chairperson said the financial information and governance will be dealt with by SCOPA later in a different meeting later that day. She requested that questions posed to the Department should only be related to the Annual Report..

Pages 8 to 9

Mr D Mitchell (DA) referred to the second paragraph on page 8. The MEC refers to the social workers, the child and youth care workers, the community developers and other staff working at the coalface. He thanked the staff dealing with the clients with very limited resources and in very difficult situations especially in the rural parts of the province. He asked what assistance is provided for those staff members who very often are the ones providing the assistance and the services to the clients. On page 9 with regards to the gender-based violence (GBV) workshop that was hosted, where did that happen? How was that workshop extended to NPOs and NGOs across the province?

Ms P Makeleni (ANC) asked that Mr Fritz elaborate on the child killings and the plans that the Department has to address it. What has been the contribution of the multi task team on youth and gangs in the Khayelitsha Commission of Enquiry? She said the roll out of support services for the Alcohol Harms Reduction (AHR) game changer does not provide enough information.  She asked Mr Fritz to expand on the roll out of those support services. How does the Department measure the success of the GBV workshop and the impact thereof?  Where did the additional funding come from for the youth cafes? When will the report be available? The Committee went to a Kraaifontein Child and Youth Care Centre (CYCC) and found that there were five children in isolation and there were social workers who were held accountable around that. What has happened since the Committee has been there?

Ms D Gopie (ANC) asked how many of the 2 000 funded NPOs noncompliant. What mitigation measures were put in place to avoid noncompliance? What steps have been taken to prevent reoccurrence of this in future? Will the noncompliant NPOs be funded next year? If not, how will this affect service delivery in communities?

Mr Fritz thanked Mr Mitchell for his appreciation around the staff. Sometimes in Government, Parliament and generally people forget that there are people working on the ground. These people working on the ground work very hard and are sometimes assaulted and attacked due to gang violence.

Mr Fritz said there is development assistance. In a number of the CYCCs they have introduced a diploma to give them a formal qualification so that they can be registered as Child and Youth Care practitioners. The other angle is that they have a very solid ICAS system where support for counseling for traumatic experiences. The GBV workshop was for all their GBV shelters. All of these shelters got together and together with MEC Alan Winde’s Department of Agriculture and Economic Development, introduced a skills development programme for them.  It was actually a launch in the form of a workshop. When women come to the shelters many times these women are financially dependent on their abuser. With these skills development programme they can be assisted to get out of their dependence on their abuser. A lot of these women get trained as waiters and as cooks.

The killing of children is horrendous.  These killings happen in the house and it is often not strangers doing the killing but someone the victim is familiar with. He said he is very happy with the Standing Committee on the Premier and Constitutional matters working well and moving fast with the establishment of the Children’s Commission. He hopes this will make an impact and really make a difference. The development of family values is very important and people need to build on it.

Mr Fritz said that their role in the alcohol reduction programme was specifically to deal with the NBI. When a person would come to an emergency centre with trauma coming from alcohol abuse, in a case of interpersonal violence for example, they would do their brief motivational interventions.

Mr Fritz said the youth café additional funding was also money received from the After School Game Changer. They received R 1.5 million. More and more children are now coming after school to use the cafés to access the internet specifically for their assignments. A lot of cafés went out to schools to do outreach programmes. One of the best youth cafes is at the Raymond Ackerman Golf Academy where they have a fully fledged after school programme where children also get a meal. All the children from Ocean View and Simon’s Town come to the programme where practical humanity is taught and young people from very different backgrounds meet.

The first priority is always to see how they can assist NPOs in becoming compliant. They have just had a number of deregistrations of ECDs due to issues with municipalities. They have come to a decision where they have discussed this with the National Minister to look at how they can give a kind of temporary registration because municipalities take a long time to register them. They first try and assist with financial noncompliance and if they still do not comply there is nothing the Department can do about that. They have a number of workshops within the Department from their business unit that deals with the capacitation of NGOs.

Dr Robert Macdonald, HOD: Western Cape Department of Social Development said that the investigation on the incident in Kraaifontein was conducted. Disciplinary action was taken including the dismissal of the centre manager. He said he was asked by the MEC and the Premier to put together a plan of action for the child murders. They have put together that plan of action and they are currently consulting on that with civil society and organisations that were petitioning the province for a commission of enquiry into the matter. Parts of the plan are already being implemented but that plan of action is due to be tabled before cabinet, and it is also a matter for discussion for the petitions committee. In the 2017/18 financial year there was 279 children murdered in the Western Cape. This is the second highest figure in the country. The data from SAPS indicates that the bulk of the murders stem from two categories; babies that have been dumped by mothers who are either suffering from post-natal depression and gang murders. The bulk of the children being murdered are either under one year old or over 12 years old.

Pages 10 and 11

Mr Mitchell welcomed the increase of the allocation for children with disabilities on page 10. He asked for further information on the success of the Hanover Park reintegration pilot. Where are the schools for the 10 high risk substance abuse secondary schools? He asked for further clarity on the treatment programme there. On the pilot to reduce high risk alcohol users there is a pilot in three regions, he asked why the Central Karoo and Eden areas are excluded from that pilot given the high spike in alcohol abuse in that two areas.

Ms Makeleni said she was particularly satisfied with the way in which the issue of the child killings was responded to. She said she thought plans to address that problem would be presented to the Committee and said she would appreciate it if the Department could present those plans to the Committee as soon as possible. Going through the report there seems to be no proper plan in place on the youth cafés. Is the additional funding for the youth cafes coming out of the budget or is it additional funding? What is the roll out plans and the vision for the youth cafés? What is the role of the Department in the Khayelitsha Commission of Inquiry relating to gangs? Considering the real value of the province being decreased and some of the NPOs closing down, what is the plan of the Department in providing an alternative solution? The Committee was told in a presentation that many people in the Hanover Park reintegration programme do not complete the programme for many reasons. The Annual Report says that the programme was a success. How and when was this changed? Many children in youth cafés are not taught the skills to help them succeed in life. They are failing the children in the youth cafés because when they get to the classes in which they are supposed to learn those skills there is no material for them to be capacitated. She asked the Department and the MEC to assure plans are in place to address this issue. What is the purpose of the Department supporting the 37 postgraduate and 24 undergraduate students?

Ms Gopie asked how many NPOs closed their doors since 2014. How many NPOs closed their doors last year? Which communities were these organisations serving? What has been the impact in these communities of the closure of these organisations? On the funding made available for the 49 day care centres, how does this number compare to previous years? Where are these day care centres based?

Mr Mzukizi Gaba, Director for Social Crime Prevention in the Department of Social Development, said the Hanover Park reintegration pilot which they launched in 2016 was a pilot on reintegration and aftercare for successful graduates of their diversion programme. It was implemented by a locally based organisation in Hanover Park. This pilot attracted youth from Manenberg, Gugulethu, Samora Machel, Heideveld, Kewtown, Mitchells Plain, Parkwood and Capricorn. The training involved was basically to enable these youths to be ready for employment and to get their own employment opportunities. These youths were trained in hairdressing, the hospitality industry, and other business skills. They performed in competitions which incentivized them. There were four learners who were re-offenders and there are two learners whose statuses are unknown. The performance of the programme overall convinced the Department that the programme will help the Department ensure that these youths will not reoffend.

Dr Macdonald said that the diversion model that is legislated in its own right is not sufficient to ensure that recidivism is prevented. This is something that the internal audit team has been working on with the Department.

Dr Macdonald said the secondary schools categorised as high risk substance abuse are located in Kuilsriver, Eersterivier, Steenberg, Lavender Hill, Houtbay and Elsiesrivier. This is a pilot project and something the Department is testing as a model and it has proven to be quite good so far. What it entails is having the treatment specialist actually physically based at the school so that they take referrals from the teachers and the principal. These treatment specialists can service up to two or three schools in the surrounding area as well. This is something the Department is very excited about. They have seen a lot of children who would otherwise be expelled stay in the school programme and matriculate. Sometimes brief interventions are sufficient instead of a full rehabilitation programme. They are happy with this approach and they have asked Treasury if they can get some funds to expand the programme to other sites. It can be easier to treat youth substance abuse as they tend to only use alcohol and dagga when they are young as opposed to opioid or methamphetamine use when they get a bit older.

The Department of Health identified trauma wards where they had very high incidents of alcohol related trauma. These trauma wards are prioritised in three sites to initiate the brief motivational intervention programme. The programme itself is run by the Department of Health and then the Department of Social Development took referrals from the Department of Health where they had completed a brief motivational intervention with the clients. The clients would then be referred to the Department of Social Development if they needed further rehabilitation services or other social services. They do agree that the Central Karoo is an area that needs attention in terms of substance abuse. They struggle to find service providers in the Central Karoo, but they have been able to find some service providers.

Dr Macdonald said every year they are funding the universities to train people in substance abuse specialised services and they work in the NGO sector. The Department then encourages organisations where they have a shortage of substance abuse professionals to send people there so they can develop those skills. That programme with the Universities has been running for five years to six years now and it has produced a lot of graduates who are now serving the sector. The idea was to increase the skills base in the substance abuse treatment space because it is a relatively specialised skill set.

The Department will be happy to do a presentation to the Committee on child murders. The plan is due to be presented before Cabinet shortly. A lot of the things in the plan are being done already, but the plan also looks on how they can build on existing things and fill in gaps. The Department of Social Development is also part of the anti-gang provincial joint that is convened by the SAPS together with the justice cluster. The Department has given quite comprehensible input in the ProvJoints.

Youth cafe funds are from within the budget except for the additional earmarked allocations that the MEC referred to under the auspices of the After School game changer. They have been able to rapidly expand and they are reaching quite a number of areas. The Department thinks that if they can carry on with the current trajectory they will have youth cafes in very large numbers. Metro-East region sits on the drugs and gangs subcommittee of the Khayelitsha Commission. The Department has a standing presence in the Commission and they work with the youth in the Khayelitsha area that was part of the Khayelitsha Commission.

Dr Macdonald said they are having a very difficult time with the closure of NGOs. This issue should be distinguished from when the Department stops funding NGOs.  They try their best to assist NGOs in becoming compliant but if they still do not become compliant the Department has to stop funding them in terms of the PFMA. The co-funding that three NGOs are getting from private donors is drying up and the Department does not fund these organisations at full cost. So if they cannot keep their viability as an organisation they are not fully funded by government. If they do close down the Department either has to find another NGO to fill in the place or they have to take the funds they give to the NGOs and use it to increase the Department’s establishment and appoint their own staff to take up that area.  This is quite a lengthy and expensive exercise. The information on the numbers of NGOs which have closed down and the areas in which this occurred can be provided to the Committee at another time as it is quite a lot of information.

Ms Leana Goosen, Director: Facility Management and Quality Monitoring in the Provincial Department of Social Development said that their programme in centres also provides educational programmes which is formal education, sports programmes, arts and crafts programmes, music programmes, as well as skills which deals with textiles and computers. From time to time they do experience problems with the procurement of materials but those children affected are then just diverted to the rest of the programmes that they offer.

Ms Makeleni said that the sustainability of the youth cafes is not only the concern of the Committee but the Minister also raised concern on this. Mr Macdonald did not tell the Committee about the plans to make youth cafes sustainable. She said she needs to understand how the youth cafes can be made sustainable. The programmes which are being done in the youth cafes are taking a lot of money which can lead to Department not being able to sustain the youth cafes. There has never been an exact amount of youth cafes in the province as the number always varies. The Hanover Park reintegration pilot programme is only 5% complete and the success of the programme cannot be judged on that. How many children were registered in the programme and how many actually completed the programme? Has the Department found a way to overcome the issues with the procurement in child and youth care centres? She said she is not satisfied with the explanations given by the Department and she is still concerned over the issues she raised.

Ms Gillion said that civil society is rising up in the province and in the rest of South Africa due to the social conditions. This is especially so on the Cape Flats and in the so called coloured communities. She asked whether they are really using their budgets to assist these communities. Are we sure that we are getting the best out of this Department? Young people on the Cape Flats are being forced to join gangs on a daily basis. The programmes being discussed are reactionary programmes. When is there going to be proactive programmes especially on the Cape Flats? Sterling work is being done in certain elements but addressing the issues at their core is needed. A few years ago Blikkiesdorp was established. Did the Department look into the social ills that came with the establishment of Blikkiesdorp? People in Blikkiesdorp are suffering because of the ongoing turf wars between rival gangs. She asked for information on any programmes which are preventative. These are not political problems but these are social ills that everyone needs to begin looking in to holistically. The programmes designed to equip the youth with skills does not mean much if the same youth return to the same social ills they have tried to get out of.

Mr Mitchell asked if there is some sort of parental involvement in the programme in high risk substance abuse secondary schools.

The Chairperson asked after the 73 ECDs received funding for the upgrading of infrastructure, were there still outstanding ECDs that still had to complete their infrastructure. How was this grant paid? Did they receive payment before or after the upgrading of their infrastructure? How many children who have been through the reintegration programme have accessed youth cafes for the period under review? She asked for further clarity on how the skills are being used by the youth which they learnt at youth cafes.

Mr Fritz said that the Child Justice Act is a different criminal justice system for children. Any child under the age of 18 does not go through the Criminal Procedure Act; they go through the Child Justice Act. The Child Justice Act makes provision for diversions, and the reason for the provision of diversions is to divert children out of the criminal justice system so that the child does not get a criminal record for juvenile offences.  Their diversion programmes are mainly based at court. There are children who are completely disruptive at home where the parents can just not cope with the child, and then they get into diversion programmes. The reintegration programme is a programme of people who came through the diversion programme and were successful.

An assessment of the youth cafes and their impact is being done. There is interest from private donors who want to fund youth cafes. This is part of trying to make youth cafes sustainable. There is a place in Delft that takes youth cafes to a new level. This youth cafes goes into the fourth industrial revolution and perhaps all youth cafes should focus on preparing for the fourth industrial revolution exclusively. The Western Cape Government has a number of centres very similar to that. This approach needs to be applied even in rural areas. There is a general perception and general comments where every problem is being placed at the responsibility of the Department of Social Development. Everyone in society should sit around a table and discuss the social problems in communities. There should be an approach where small spaces of positivity are created in the heart of problematic areas. There is also a sports programme in the holidays in the hearts of the gang infested areas. There is a great group of young people who are not interested in gangs and want to move forward. There are also young people who glorify gangs and this is the mentality that needs to be broken. He is very optimistic that they can do a number of programmes that are proactive and aimed at prevention rather than cure.

Dr Macdonald said that the Department would like the information on the presentation where it was said that there is little success in the reintegration programme to clarify whether it is the same programme that they are talking about. It might be different programmes.

Mr Gaba said that he thinks the presentation being referred to by Ms Makeleni was in relation to the implementation of the diversion programme and the research report that was alluded to in the APP which is not in the Annual Report. In terms of that research report there were clear gaps that they picked up and the implementation plan actually implements the recommendations. The report can be made available to the Committee. Some of the recommendations were even implemented before the report was finalised.

Dr Macdonald said that the Hanover Park reintegration project was to find a way to address the issues that were raised in the internal audit and also the research they did on the non-completion of the diversion programmes and recidivism. They need to roll this out to more places. The aftercare and reintegration services after rendering of diversion programmes are quite uneven in the province.

With the drug rehabilitation process in the high risk secondary schools each person needs to be assessed individually and an individual plan needs to be established to determine what would be the right way forward for that person. For example, if the parents of the child are absent or abusive, their inclusion in the process would be inappropriate. It is down to whether the inclusion of the parents in the process will be in the best interest of the patient’s recovery. There is intense family strengthening programmes in the Department. They have picked up that there is a need for the work that their social workers are doing with families particularly around rehabilitation services and permanency planning for children, but also the provisions of the Children’s Act that make it possible for the courts to order certain types of family interventions and improved parenting.

Dr Macdonald said the bulk of their services are statutory services that they must render. They have a rapidly escalating number of children that they are looking after in the child protection system. In the last two years they have gone from around 35 000 children in alternative care to almost 40 000. These cases alone require a large amount of capacity and resources from the Department to manage. The bulk of their budget goes to these kinds of services. The reality is that they will not be able to make a big impact on the social ills in the province without substantially more funds and capacity. They have appealed to the provincial treasury to see to what extent treasury can assist the Department with getting more funds from the conditional grants. Their equitable share is lagging in demands from government services and last year was the first year the Western Cape became the third largest Province in the country, yet their equitable share is still significantly less as a Province. The conditional grant the Department gets is also modeled on the same split an as a result they are getting substantially less money than they need. The Department is in a crisis of resources and they are not getting enough money to do what they need to do. Social workers are also suffering due to the conditions and dangerous environments that they have to work in.

Ms Goosen said that they need to address the challenges in terms of the procurement because unfortunately they now procure three months in advance. They have an early release system where children that qualify for early release from their centres due to behaviour can be released early. These children need to be linked to educational centres, work, or a sports programme as well as specific conditions such as reporting home. They work with probation services to reactivate the probation officer to do home visits.

Dr Macdonald said they try as best as they can to equip young people as well as they can to go and find work particularly in basic skills that can give them a chance in getting jobs and starting their own businesses. After young people turn 21 it is increasingly difficult to keep track of them and this is a big gap where the Department would love to be more involved in. the Department does try to prioritise children that come out of facility-based care for EPWP opportunities.

The Chairperson asked how many children were subject to the early release programme for the reporting period. Of this number, are there of those that have gone back to formal schooling? Of that number how many have reoffended and come back into the system?

Ms Makeleni asked how many children participated in the diversion programme.

Mr Cowley said that of the 73, 13 of them received infrastructure upgrades and then the balance received subsidies from the conditional grant. On the infrastructure upgrades, part of the requirements of the National Department of Social Development and National Treasury is that they had to appoint a quantity surveyor. For this financial year they are doing 135 upgrades specifically at ECDs that are in need of upgrades.

Mr Gaba said that in the Hanover Park reintegration programme 36 youths participated and 30 successfully completed the programme - 83% success rate.

Ms Goosen said they started with the early release in 2013 and they have now close to 200 children who have been released through that programme. A number of these youths even went on to attend colleges. Only five youths reoffended while they were still in their sentence period.

Ms Gillion said she would like the statistics on that from the Department. She asked if they the youths that reoffended did so while they were still in the centres or when they were out of the centres. In the holistic approach that needs to happen, will Mr Fritz be at the centre of it? She said the situation in the Western Cape cannot be blamed on politics.

Mr Fritz said he completely agrees with Ms Gillion. He will be right in the centre of the holistic approach in addressing the challenges the Western Cape is facing.

Ms Goosen said the five re-offenders were still on early release when they reoffended as they did not stick to the conditions of their release.

Ms Gillion asked if the Department went to look at why those five children reoffended while they were on early release. These children were supposed to be rehabilitated so why would they reoffend?

Ms Goosen said they will have to provide that information in writing but usually the relapse has to do with family support.

Mr M Wiley (DA) asked if the Department keeps statistics with regards to recidivism rates. If yes, what are the comparisons with other developing countries?

Ms Gillion said that part of this programme and one of the negative comments around the programme is the non-involvement of parents in the programme. Did the Department do an assessment before releasing these five children who reoffended to their parents? Were these parents put through a programme by the Department before having their children released to them? There is no point in treating children for substance abuse through rehabilitation if they are being released into the same behavioural conditions from which they are trying to recover.

Ms Goosen said that before a child is released they have a system of testing that child’s behaviour. Some children who excel at sports even having sporting coaches care and support for them when they are released. No child is released without a full investigation into their circumstances. That circumstances may change after release such as parents losing their jobs, passing away etc. before they are released children must have gone on a few occasions on successful holiday release.

Dr Macdonald said the individual cases can be provided to the Committee. Some children should not be in centres since they have committed petty crimes and they are put in the same environment as other children who are in these centres for more serious offences such as murder and rape. Staff in these facilities also get assaulted routinely. Part of the early release is also to look at the severity of the crime for which the child has in placed in a centre.

Dr Macdonald said the Department keeps statistics on recidivism within their own programmes. The Department cannot pick up if a child who has come through one of their diversion programmes and has been sent to prison because they do not have access to correctional services databases. This is one of the issues that was picked up in their internal audit.

Mr Wiley said this is quite alarming. Surely there has to be interdepartmental discussions on this matter and the Department of Correctional Services should make the records available to the Department of Social Development. There should be an exchange of information.

Mr Gaba said that in terms of the Child Justice Act, every child arrested by police should be referred to a probation officer for assessment. Then they will be able to pick up if that child is reoffending. They have made a request through the Child Justice Forum and they have received some reluctance to be provided with the information. This is because to collect this kind of information requires a lot of resources. The system that is supposed to track the movement of children in the criminal justice system is not yet integrated.

Dr Macdonald said there is not large numbers of children that are going into prison. In this Province there is an average of 15 to 20 at any given time. This is not as big of a challenge as when they go to prison as adults.

Mr Wiley said what he is hearing is quite frightening. He suggested that the Mr Fritz meet with the Minister of Correctional Services to exchange that information.

Mr Fritz said they do have regular meetings with the Child Justice Forum and correctional services is represented in there. The Department of Social Development runs a programme in section B5 in Pollsmoor prison for children which numbers around 5 children. The Department does need to see how they can synchronise the system for the transferring of information.

The Chairperson asked if it is a panel that decides if these youths are ready to be released. When a child offender comes to CYCCs and they have not been with their families for a long time, who are these children released to?

Dr Macdonald said they try to ensure that as few as possible children end up in correctional facilities and they have kept this number very low. Due to a ruling by the Western Cape High Court, Magistrates are referring almost all children who offend to the Department’s facilities.  60% of children in the Department’s facilities are now over 18 years of age. This makes the environment very dangerous especially for the younger children. It is only the most dangerous children who end up going to correctional facilities.

Ms Goosen said that there is a Committee that considers the early release of children. The social worker as well as the facility manager come and present the child’s case and they forward the recommendation to Ms Goosen.  

Pages 12 and 13

Ms Gopie asked for details on the non-compliant NPO centres for older people as well as the number of older people in these centres. What were the criteria for determining non-compliance? What is the reason for the Department not meeting all of its targets for service delivery? What measures have been put in place to prevent reoccurrence?

Ms Makeleni asked if the Department is satisfied with having been successful in meeting the “bulk” of its targets.

Dr Macdonald said that historically the Department has had a hard time with its targets. The Department has tried over the last few years to get its targets more accurate to speak to what they do. This year they have come very close to targeting the holistically incredibly and the targets are often very difficult ones because they are more like projections. There is more information specifically on the targets of the non-financial performance information section in the Annual Report. One of the main areas where they have been concerned about not meeting targets has been the outpatient drug rehabilitation services. They have noticed that there has been a fairly high rate of people dropping out of these programmes before completing them. The other area for concern is not meeting the targets around ECDs, and this is because the Department’s financial indicators require them to count the number of children in registered ECDs that they fund. A lot of ECDs lost their registrations and the Department could then not count the children in those ECDs. This kind of situation is unsatisfactory to the Department because they do not want ECDs to lose their registration which means that children lose the benefit of funding in these ECDs. The Department still remains in a better position than what they were five years ago and they continue to improve year on year.

Mr Denzil Cowley, Director: Special Programmes in the Western Cape Department of Social Development, said that in terms of the service centres they have a process last year where they did an audit on the services centres in order to prepare them for registration. There is an improvement plan for service centres who show indications of non-compliance which is monitored by the Department’s policy developers. These service centres are also being monitored through the Department’s monitoring plan and the centres’ quarterly reports. In the period under discussion the Department has only had one service centre that closed down due to non-compliance and this was due mainly to governance and the management of finances.

Mr Cowley said they currently have 97 residential facilities for older persons registered for 119 that the Department is funding. Those that are not registered are predominantly non-compliant due to fire and health clearance by the city bylaws. Buildings regulations have changes and some of these buildings are quite old and there are phenomenal costs involved in these residential facilities in order to comply. The Department has over the last three years assisted where they can in order to get these facilities more fire compliant, and recently the Department has had a meeting with the city fire clearance people in order to start special programmes in these facilities.

Pages 14 to 16

Ms Gopie said that the Department has had a serious problem of under-expenditure this year. This under-expenditure has almost doubled from last year yet the MEC is always complaining about the Department’s budget not being enough. What measures are there is prevent under expenditure?

Ms Makeleni asked if there are any critical posts that should be worried about in Programme 1. How soon can the Committee be presented with the information on the child protection prevention and early intervention strategy? This Department was one of three departments pointed out by the Auditor-General (AG) due to irregular expenditure relating to supply chain management (SCM) procurement processes. Some of this irregular expenditure was from previous years which were never declared by the Department. What effort has the Department done to correct this and why was the Department in this position?

Dr Macdonald said that the under-expenditure of R 6.4 million was an increase from the prior year of R 3.8 million. The bulk of the under-expenditure was from the compensation budget. It is very difficult for the Department to avoid some kind of under-expenditure with the current fiscal requirements that simultaneously cap their compensation budget and also rule that they cannot reprioritise any under spend on the compensation budget. It is an effort from the provincial treasury to recover some savings from departments because provincial treasury is under a lot of pressure as the provincial reserve fund is depleted. The under-expenditure is related to the Department not being able to fill posts as quickly as they want to. Due to internal hiring there are gaps which leave previously occupied posts vacant. The Department is struggling to find suitable candidates to fill posts in scarce skills and this is further dragging out the process of filling a post for up to a year. Due to the requirements by treasury the Department cannot redirect funds for other purposes.

Mr Juan Smith, CFO, Western Cape Department of Social Development, said that last year they had a conditional grant of R 2.6 million for the ECDs. This also contributed to the under spending, because of the quantity surveyor they appointed.

Dr Macdonald said that the Department has identified irregular expenditure, and it is due to investigations being carried over to the next year that they end up with amount that has accumulated. One of the main reasons for the irregular expenditure was related to the procurement of uniforms for child and youth care workers and the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) requirements for local content. Because there has been trouble getting local content certificates from the DTI, in prior years the Department has requested a deviation from DTI which allows the Department to not have to adhere to the local content requirement. During the year under review the Department failed to request that deviation resulting in the Department incurring irregular expenditure. This accounted for R 1.9 million. To address this issue the Department has changed their accounting officer’s system to require that they now centralise to committee for the supply chain. The overall increase in irregular expenditure across government can also be interpreted as the increasing complexity of the irregularity environment.

Ms Makeleni said she is struggling to accept the explanation that R 1.9 million in irregular expenditure could occur due to uniforms for child and youth care workers not being found through a local supplier.

Ms Gillion said that under expenditure in a budget should be taken seriously. When did the Department realise that they will not be able to spend the whole budget? Why was it not part of the adjustment budget? Can the Committee get further clarity on the deviations? About two years ago the National Department of Social Development introduced a policy where partnerships with local partners would be established. What did this Department do in this regard? Did this Department empower local groups in becoming suppliers to this Department? What happens to the students that the Department is sponsoring with their studies when these students are finished with their studies?

Dr Macdonald said the main posts where they have had difficulty in filling are finance posts, child and youth care workers, and supply chain. Their biggest concern is with the finance staff. The Department has about a 10% staff turnover rate during the course of the year. There is a vacancy between the filling of the posts as staff have to give one month notice to resign but it usually takes four months to five months to fill a post. The Department is not in a sever situation as far as critical posts are concerned. With regards to the adjustment budget, he said treasury only allows them to reprioritise 20% of their compensation projected under spend. If the compensation limitations change the Department would reprioritise.

DTI has a regulatory requirement that when procuring certain items government departments must source local content when procuring those items. In previous year the Department has requested a deviation from this because DTI does not have the capacity to issue certificates from service providers quickly enough so that the Department can get reliable information. When the procurement process went forward through the normal procurement process and the cheapest bidder was awarded the uniforms supplier contract. In doing this without the required deviation they would put in every year they then found themselves incurring irregular expenditure.

The National Department of Social Development has been funding social work graduates for several years now. The national department has given the provincial department a conditional grant to take on those social workers on four year contracts to work back their contractual obligations in terms of their bursaries. The national department created a lot more bursaries for social work students than they had money or the capacity to employ and they have now halted their bursary scheme.

Mr Fritz said the Department has also had bad experiences with local partnerships. In a project with the West Coast R 3 million cannot be accounted for. So they have stopped these partnerships and they prefer putting people into businesses and then the Department can do business with them. At a MINMEC meeting the Department even said to the previous National Minister of Social Development that they will not do the local partnerships. This provincial department will not go into partnerships where their money will be stolen.

Ms Gillion asked when the Department is going to start taking local content seriously. She asked Mr Fritz not to interrupt her while she is speaking. This is not a political meeting. What is the Department doing to assist NGOs? Over the last few years there have been improvements in the way NGOs operate. Will the Department just accept that cooperative partners will steal money or will the Department assist them? If cooperative partners are not assisted and empowered how will inequality be lowered?

Mr Fritz said that they are the Department for Social Development and not Economic Development. The Department cannot be responsible for the managing of finances of cooperatives.

Mr Smith said that they requested the deviations because of the supply chain processes they had to follow. These process requirements from both DTI and National Treasury are quite stringent in terms of those local content issues. Local content requirements are very prescriptive to the extent that the raw materials need to be from this country. There are also certain percentages applied to these products. The deviation is a process where the Department needs to advertise and the specifications need to be correct. This was part of the challenge for the Department had when applying for deviations. In the third year the Department did not ask for the deviation and the Department did not inform their regional officers and their facilities. The regional facilities procured normally which is when the AG declared it non-compliant, the Department had to declare it as irregular expenditure. When National Treasury issues directives with a specific date of implementation, the provincial treasury will first look at those directives and first see if there are any risks for the province and for the provincial departments and provincial treasury will issue a position statement which will go to DTI and National Treasury. Last year there was an issue about steel products as there was some confusion around whether the steel products is the raw material or manufactured steel and where it comes from. This took a couple of months to resolve before provincial treasury could issue a circulate.

Ms Gillion requested documentation on the deviation for the last three years from the Department. She asked for further information on the steps the Department has taken to deal with the irregular expenditure.

Pages 17 to 19

Ms Gopie asked for clarity on the jazz tickets on page 17.

Ms Makeleni asked if the Department has any business with Sanlam. There is no PPPs or donations related to youth cafes. Why are they included?

Ms Gillion also asked for further clarification on the jazz tickets. Are their private donors to the youth cafes?

Dr Macdonald said if people donate to youth cafes or any other NGOs it does not need to be disclosed in any report because it is not a donation to the Department. Most of the jazz tickets were received by their Chief Director for Community and Partnership in his personal capacity. The Department does not do business with Sanlam. On page 218 there is more information on the same topic.

Ms Gillion asked why donations made to individuals is in the report but the Department did not disclose donations to youth cafes and NGOs.

Dr Macdonald said that any senior official in the Department is required by law to disclose gifts. The Department does disclose gifts for CYCCs. NGOs do not work for the Department so they do not need to disclose gifts.

Pages 26 to 27

Ms Gillion asked for how the post for the Chief Director for Service Delivery Management and Coordination has been vacant. What happened to the previous Director? How has this vacancy impacted on services delivery? When will the Department fill the vacancy? What is the impact of the vacancy on the Department?

Dr Macdonald said a decision was taken in 2011 to leave that post unfunded. The previous Chief Director was Mr Hewu who moved to the Chief Directorship for Community and Partnership Development. The region directors now report directly to the Department. The reason for this arrangement was that the Department wanted to have a shorter reporting line for the regions during a period where they were trying to consolidate some of the important work that had to be done following the organisational redesign of the Department. The impact has been that Dr Macdonald has had an additional six people reporting directly to him, and he has to do a lot more performance assessments when he does the assessments for the regional directors. One of the positives is that it has simplified regional offices reporting because they get access directly to the Head of the Department. This vacancy is not treated as a problem vacancy from the perspective of non-compliance with the requirements from the Public Service. In future the Department may take the decision to reestablish funding for that post or abolish the post from the structure.

Mr Fritz said that they had a lot of problems with non-financial data. This has been eliminated because the regions now report directly to the Head of Department. They might split that Chief Directorate up in the future due to the size of that Directorate.

Mr Mitchell asked if the Committee can get assurance that the vacant post did not impact service delivery at all.

Ms Gillion said that to redesign the Department they either have to go through the process or fill the vacancy. Sitting with the vacant post for so long is sending out a bad signal from the Department. The Department needs to fill the post if they do not want to do a redesign of the structure.

Ms Makeleni said they not expect to see things like this in an Annual Report unless the Department wants the Committee to interrogate on it.

The Chairperson asked if the Department has experienced any gaps in the reporting line from the regional managers to the HOD.

Mr Macdonald said the reporting line is working well but it is something the Department might not want to sustain indefinitely. They decided to keep the post there because if they abolish it and decide they need it back they have to go through a very long process to get it reestablished.  

Ms Gillion asked if the Department within the law not to fill a post on a Director level for more than four years.

Ms Annemie van Reenen, Director: Operational Management Support, said that they can only fill funded posts. Since the HOD was appointed in 2013, he adopted a pilot approach. First it was the NGOs that were removed from the regions due to AG outcomes. They then did an OD exercise. This then proved to be a success and did other OD exercises in the Chief Directorate level. The HOD then reviewed the facility structure to bring in alignment with their norms and standards. Moving forward if the post remains unfunded it will be abolished, and all structures must be approved by the DPSA.

Ms Gillion asked if there is a process that the Department is following to change their organogram.

Dr Macdonald said they do have a process as Ms Van Reenen has indicated. The organisational design team is looking at their entire regional structure to revise it. It is a lengthy process that goes through many departments and stakeholders.

Page 28 to 31

Ms Makeleni asked the Department to go to De Doorns to address the challenges that area is facing with children not registered for school and malnutrition. How much of a problem are the child headed households? She asked for further clarity on the 60% compliance with provincial quality assurance framework.

Ms Gopie asked why the Department failed to achieve its desired standard on the compliance with priorities detailed in the DSD WC strategy for improvement of child care and protection services.

Dr Macdonald said they are taking over the National Department’s feeding schemes as well. The National Department has requested all provinces to take over the nutrition programmes they currently fund. The Department will be receiving extra funds for this programme.  The Department relies on the information provided to address nutritional needs. The entire section beginning on page 30 is on the service delivery improvement plan. This is a new format for reporting the service delivery improvement plan. It is basically about their specific plans they submit to the DPSA on where the Department is going to specifically target the improvement of their services. The Department has not fallen significantly short of where they wanted to be. These things are also sometimes hard to measure as percentages.

Ms Marion Johnson, Chief Director: Business Planning and Strategy, said that fundamentally the SOPs that they have and were supposed to develop in 2017/18 actually have been developed and are being tested. This is a very difficult template to deal with in terms of the need to put percentages of actual completion of tasks. For the new SDIP that they are busy implementing this year which deals with the same service delivery improvements there is a better reporting template. The 60% compliance with quality assurance would have comprised 51 NPOs that had been monitored. They were short of one organisation.

Dr Leslie Corrie, Director: Children and Families, said that at the moment they are aware of eight cases of child headed households. The guidelines needed to be developed to ensure that these children’s rights are protected and that in terms of the Children’s Act access all the necessary services and support that is offered in the Act.

Ms Makeleni asked what is needed to quality assure NGOs.

Dr Macdonald said the quality assurance framework is for child protection. It takes long to quality assure organisations they do not do it all in one year.

Ms Goosen said they have a quality assurance unit in their directorate. They do all the quality assurance of NPOs, CYCCs, etc. According to legislation they have to do quality assurance once every three years and they do registration reviews once every five years, but they combined the process. Those organisations not quality assured in a given year are monitored and evaluated in terms of the service level agreement framework.

Pages 33 to 35

Ms Makeleni asked the Department to unpack the draft foster care plan. Is the foster parent recruitment drive incentivised? What steps has the Department taken to ensure that money does not become a determining factor in the recruitment drive?

The Chairperson asked if youth that landed in CYCCs came from foster families.

Dr Corrie said that they are busy finalising their standard operating procedure around the whole process of recruitment, screening and safety of foster parents.  To raise a foster child takes more than what parents can get from government. Foster parents must be vetted against the child protection register as well as SAPS to ensure the safety of the children. She said the Department can come back to the Committee if they which for further factual information.

Dr Macdonald said there some children who go from foster care to security if their behaviour starts to become unmanageable for the foster parents. There are also a lot of children with special needs who foster parents struggle with. The SASSA grant is not much for foster parents and they often have to spend quite a lot of money taking care of the child.  The Department cannot incentivise foster parents.

Ms Goosen said they have developed their observation and referral centres to try to move children back into their previous level of care.

Pages 42 to 43

Ms Makeleni asked if there was sufficient time to deal with the Annual Performance Plan which was tabled in March given that the Annual Report was due August.

Ms Johnson said the Departmental APP that was published would not be the one the Department would be reporting on.

Pages 46 to 47

Mr Mitchell asked if the Committee could get a list of who are and what designation the beneficiaries of the bursaries on page 47. Who makes up the panel that allocates those bursaries?

Ms Gopie asked what challenges the Department faces when it comes to finding suitable candidates to fill vacant posts.

Ms Makeleni asked if there is a plan for the Department to start digitising some of their administration. There have been some issues with the new biometric system used by SASSA. Is the province ready for this?

Dr Macdonald said that they do have some IT projects they are working on such as the NPO management system, the National Child protection register, and the probation system among others. The Department can provide a list of the beneficiaries for the bursaries if the Committee sends them a request in writing. He said they often struggle to find people they can appoint in vacancies particularly from financial backgrounds. They also have a problem in their facilities with educators as the Department does not pay the same as schools. So they keep losing their educators. The same goes for psychologists.

Pages 54 to 55

Ms Gopie asked why there is no graduate intake for this year.

Ms Van Reenen said there was no funding..

Pages 56 to 57

Ms Gopie asked for the reasons behind the under-expenditure for district management.

Mr Smith said this falls within programme 1 and it was due mainly to their COE compensation, internal promotions, staff exists and social work graduates who were contracted for less than the full year.

Pages 58 to 59

Ms Gopie asked for more details on the under-performance for the number of older persons accessing residential facilities.

Ms Maekeleni asked for the reasons for the under-performance for the number of older persons accessing assisted and independent living facilities.

Mr Cowley said that the under-performance for residential facilities for older persons is due mainly to death from natural causes. There are also quite a few people under the age of 60 in residential facilities who are taking up beds which the Department does not count. The independent and assisted living is a new indicator. In their calls for proposals they did not get that many people who wanted to offer this service. This is due mainly to the social housing policy which has not been approved yet, so NGOs cannot access funding to build social housing and independent units. They are continually canvassing and expanding these services to keep older people as long as they can in communities.

Ms Gopie asked if communities really know about the need for keeping older people as long as possible in communities.

Ms Makeleni asked why there are long waiting lists for these services when the Department has just said that many people do not know about these services.

Mr Mitchell asked how the Department over-achieved on its target for the number of older persons accessing community-based care and support services.

Mr Cowley said that although there are vacancies, it takes some time to clean the room once a person has passed away in there. Once they agree to take up residency in this facility they have to move there. It does takes up to two to three months to fill a bed once it is open.

Mr Cowley said the over-performance of the target for the number older persons accessing community-based care and support services is an indication that there is a greater need for the services the Department has.

Pages 60 to 61

Ms Gopie asked for reasons for the failure to meet the targets for services to the persons with disabilities. Why is the Department not using the previous year’s achievements when setting targets?

Ms Makeleni asked if the over-performance for the number of persons with disabilities and their families accessing developmental social welfare services had an impact on the budget. Are there plans to increase the number of residential facilities for persons with disabilities? Was there any thorough assessment of these programmes? Has there been any incident of fraud or mismanagement and if so what has the Department done to address this? How often is monitoring and evaluation done?

Mr Mitchell asked what the reasons are for the increase in the number of people accessing the Department funded NPO specialised support services.

Mr Cowley said the additional facility the Department opened or funded in target 2.3.1.1 is part of a plan where the Department has begun expanding these kinds of services specifically for the intellectually disabled. There might be a possibility in the next three to four financial years that they would be able to increase these services if the Department does get enough funding.

Mr Cowley said that the underachievement in target 2.3.1.2 is similar to the situation in old age homes where people die. A lot of these people have multiple disabilities.  When these people pass away there is a process that involved cleaning the room, going back to the waiting list and the family needs to give approval again. This process takes up to two months.

Mr Cowley said they have done the benchmarking against previous years. In the case of the underachievement in in 2.3.1.3, there are people in the protective workshops that become ill who then have to go to the hospital and sometimes they do not come back. The Department however keeps their space open for them because they could come back in a month or two. There is a period of a maximum of three months where the Department does not keep the space open for them anymore. Due to stigmas parents often decide to send their child to protective workshops. There has begun a turnaround due to the Department promoting these workshops, more people are coming forward.

Pages 62 to 65

Ms Makeleni asked if 2.5.1 includes the fire victims of IY.

Ms Gopie asked for the reasons for under expenditure on page 64.

Ms Makeleni asked what the total is for the number of people who benefited from social relief on page 64.

Mr Lionel Arnolds, Director: Community Development, said that the IY victims are included in that figure for 2.5.1.  The Department can provide further information on the exact number to the Committee.

Mr Smith said that the reasons for the under expenditure are due mainly to internal promotion. The Department has also had 154 exits last year and it takes five to six months to appoint a new person.

Mr Arnolds said they can provide a list of social relief beneficiaries and the areas from where they came.

Pages 68 to 69

Ms Gopie asked for information on the underperformance for sub-programme 3.3.1.2 and 3.3.1.5.

Dr Corrie said that the Children’s Act provides that when a child is moved into alternative care, that child can move back home or the circumstances from which the child was removed from. The underachievement in 3.3.1.2 was due to the Department not being able to reunify all the children that they had projected. There are many reasons for this but basically it depends on the motivation of the family or the parents. It also includes families that were unable to improve their circumstances. The situations were not conducive for the children to return. Target 3.3.1.5 is a new indicator so the Department is only now starting to set the baseline for themselves. That target also depends on the number of court orders the Department receives. When a matter is brought to the Children’s Court the Court can order an investigation or can make any other order. The Department is not always in control of what the Court’s decision may be and that may also add to the underperformance.

Pages 70 to 71

Ms Makeleni asked if the Department has an alternative for the children in indicator 3.4.1 that could not access ECD and after school care services. Can the Department forward the list of where these children are?

Dr Macdonald said that most children would still be in the same ECDs. It is just that the Department cannot count them. The Department cannot fund them when they are not registered for more than three months. The Department can provide to the Committee the information on which ECDs they stopped funding and which ECDs they resumed funding.

Ms Makeleni asked how long it takes for the Department to reinstate funding after they have stopped funding. She raised concern over the impact it has on the children.

Dr Macdonald said this is a serious concern for the Department. The impact on children ranges from being minimal to significant depending on how long the ECD remains unfunded. The Department has been able in some cases to fast track the registration process or gives them conditional registration. The fact is that the registration process is not working for the Department. The Department has written to the National Minister of Social Development to ask if the Minister cannot consider amending the regulations to make it easier for ECDs to register. There are certain things in the regulations that are required that make it very difficult for ECDs. Many of the ECDs were registered by default when the new Children’s Act came in because they were deemed by the Act to be registered for that period. In the last two years it has been difficult when ECDs try to register and various issues come up.

Ms Gillion asked what the relationship is like between the Department and the City of Cape Town. The City of Cape Town has been reluctant to assist the ECD centres.

Dr Macdonald said that the Department does have a good relationship with the City on this issue. The Department has an ECD forum with the City on which they work together. Part of the problem is that there are so many units involved in the process that it creates a lot of difficulties. The registration process has to go through a number of Departments. He said he thinks that he bar is being set too high. There are often first world regulations where they do not have first world conditions which are creating very difficult conditions for ECDs.

Pages 76 to 77

Ms Gopie asked the Department to take the Committee through the regulations put in place to prevent under expenditure during the APP.

Mr Smith said this that the sub-programme on page 76 is where the Department got money from the National Department to appoint a quantity surveyor. The quantity surveyor was appointed in September of 2018 although the funds were appointed for the full year. This is reason for the under expenditure. There was also under expenditure on compensation although this was due to mainly to non-compliance where the Department suspended the funds.

Page 94 to 95

Ms Gopie asked how much of the R 93.01 million on page 95 was spent.

Mr Smith said the answer is on page 96. R 18.77 million was spent.

Pages 97 to 98

Ms Gopie asked for an update on the replacement of the Bonnytoun CYCC fence.

Ms Goosen said that the fence has been finalised and the contractors have left.

Ms Gopie asked if the Department is satisfied that the job done is value for the money.

Ms Goosen said that the fence was specified in the blue print for security centres. Therefore they are moving closure to compliance with the blue print for security centres. They hope to deter escapes in that manner and through that have a safer and more secure environment.

Pages 100 to 101

Ms Makeleni said she does not see any infrastructure projects on youth cafes. She said she is struggling to understand what is going on with youth cafes.

Dr Macdonald said the youth cafes being referred to are municipal buildings. Municipalities have the budgets and expenditure for those buildings. The Department only funds the operators in the form of NGOs to go in and operate the youth cafes.

Mr Fritz said the Department has a contractual relationship with each entity and in many instances they are NGOs. NGOs will enter into a relationship with municipalities to procure the lease for the building. The Department has nothing to do with the building. The Department assists with the renovations to make it operational.

The Chairperson asked members of the Committee to consider the time as they have only a few minutes left for the meeting.

Ms Makeleni said she still does not understand the youth cafes. She said the youth café in George is not on municipal property - it is in a church. She said the concern was that renovations made to that café were to a private entity.

Mr Fritz said he was personally involved in the George negotiations and with the Mayor of George. That building was not originally a church but it was used as a church. After it was used as a church it was used as a local radio station.. Now the NGO and the municipality have a relationship in leasing that space.  

Ms Gillion said that it is a bad sign that only 20% of the Department’s assets are in a good condition. Can the Department give the Committee an update on its capital assets in the different brackets? She said she is not satisfied with the answer from Mr Fritz. She said the Department needs to come back to the Committee to give a better overview on its youth projects.

Mr Wiley suggested the Department come back to give a status report on its assets on an itemised level.

Mr Fritz said they will have to come together with the Department of Public Works because that Department is the custodian of the assets.

The Chairperson said the governance part of the report will be handled in a meeting with SCOPA later.  Due to the time constraints Members of the Committee are to ask their questions and indicate on which page the questions are based.

Ms Gillion referred to page 115, she asked what training was covered by the training expenditure. How many staff members benefitted? Why was training only provided for programme one?

Ms Gopie asked what the reasons were for the grievances not being resolved. Asked how many of the Department’s consultant were HDI companies and what was the total value of their utilisation?

Ms Gillion referred to page 120; she asked why it was only males that were given salary increases. Why are there so many resigning from the Department? She asked for clarity on the resignation due to personal grievances and no reasons provided on page 124. On page 125, how many women were promoted?  Did these promotions take into account employment equity? When will the Department address the issue of employment equity?

Ms Makeleni asked why the employee on page 120 was a granted higher salary. She asked of the Department has the demographics for those people who have resigned.

Ms Gopie asked the Department to give more information on the sexual harassment case.

Ms Van Reenen said they trained 986 staff members. They have done substance abuse training, Children’s Act training, finance and operations training etc. the budget is in programme one and therefore the reflection of the training is in programme one. They have not appointed any consultants. There were grievances around overtime, upgrading of posts, performance management, victimisation etc. The employee in table 3.3.3 was a person who got a job offer in another Department; a counter offer was made by the Department to retain the skills which are particularly related to supply chain management. The new public service regulation requires the Department to have exit interviews with their staff. They have tried as far as possible but they cannot force staff members to disclose their reasons for resignations.

She said during this reporting period they had one vacancy where the official left for retirement in SMS. The vacancy was internally filled. The Department does mostly comprise females due to the nature of the social work profession. They also do comply with Employment Equity via a 50/50 split in SMS. Promotions are recorded in the Annual Report but promotions do not actually exist anymore as people need to apply for those posts.

Ms Johnson said that the sexual harassment case stems from complaints from interns about a particular manager that was investigated and then handed over to employee relations. This case still needs to go to the labour court. She said she cannot say anything more than this.

Ms Gillion asked what steps the Department took when the case was reported to the Department. What protection was given to the persons who raised the issue?

Ms Johnson said they handled it in the correct way as soon as it was reported to the Department. She interviewed the interns separately asked if the interns wanted to follow a particular route. After various processes were followed the interns asked to be moved to a safer location. Ms Johnson made herself available to the interns if they felt they needed further assistance or support.

Mr Fritz thanked the Committee for the robust engagement.  

The Chairperson thanked the Department for their time and engagement.

Resolutions/Actions

The Committee Coordinator said the first request from the Committee is on the presentation from the Department on the child murders in the Western Cape which will include the action plan from the Department and civil society. The second one is the number of NGOs that have closed down since 2014. There was also a request for a list and areas of the 49 daycare centres. A report on the research conducted on the diversion programme. Total number of that is in early release programmes. Documents on what the Department has put in place to address irregular expenditure. The Committee Coordinator listed the rest of the questions the Department could not answer.

The meeting was adjourned.